Apple could be subject to criminal charges in France over phone slowdowns

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, kiska3 said:

Depends, there are lithium batteries designed for high current applications

Like for example, Samsung's INR18650-25R's, these are somewhat high capacity(2500mAh) high current(with burst upto 100A) batteries that can take being discharged at 20A compared to Panasonic's NCR18650GA's which are high capacity(3500mAh) but don't take too well to high current applications(10A) but can burst to 50A. However these bursts can reduce battery capability

 

But being Apple, I am guessing they decided to ditch the "High Current" aspect of lithium battery design

They (like all phones) don't use standard cells/packages (cells are not matched) which leads to issues.

 

Quote

although a battery should deliver 100 percent capacity during the first year of service, it is common to see lower than specified capacities, and shelf life may contribute to this loss. In addition, manufacturers tend to overrate their batteries, knowing that very few users will do spot-checks and complain if low. Not having to match single cells in mobile phones and tablets, as is required in multi-cell packs, opens the floodgates for a much broader performance acceptance. Cells with lower capacities may slip through cracks without the consumer knowing

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

I don't think the issue is the current rating, the issue is that the overall capacity was too small leading to a deeper DoD and more frequent recharge cycles. 

[kiska3]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I don't think the issue is the current rating, the issue is that the overall capacity was too small leading to a deeper DoD and more frequent recharge cycles. 

I think its a combination of their current rating, the capacity and the application in which its being used in.

Acts like turning on a screen is a high current event to the battery especially at a low SoC where sudden activation for the screen can lead to a voltage sag where the lithium's protection circuitry may act in order to either protect the battery or protect internal components. Its why in most Android phones produced >2015(I think) turn off at 3.3v instead of 3v, and starting in Marshmallow its a coded value

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

With some luck this means that Tim Cook will be delivering his next keynote looking like this :

Face it, orange is the new Mac

[Energycore]

6 hours ago, johnbanks said:

 

Source: http://mashable.com/2017/12/28/apple-iphone-criminal-charges-france

Apple might be subject to the criminal charges in France for slowing down their iPhones. Really?   Now, this is how it's gonna work?

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On 4/29/2013 at 2:09 AM, Windspeed36 said:

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[Zodiark1593]

2 hours ago, Mr.Meerkat said:

Here's a fun fact, both the A11 and the A10 have bigger dies than their snapdragon equivalents (S835 and S820). Just in case you didn't know . 

You need to remember to account other components. In fact, in a phone, the modem and display (if its LCD) are probably more power hungry than the CPU/GPU (overall, excluding demanding games as that taxes the CPU and GPU particularly plus not that many people actually play demanding titles on their phones). This means that even if the chips were throttled to a lower but still usable state, it might not necessarily make a huge enough difference to battery life. Due batteries only being able to be cycled a couple hundred of cycles (typically 300-500) before they have degraded to an unideal state, even with the lower performance, as battery life isn't impacted majorly, the battery may degrade just as fast. 

Where the LCD is bigger (as in the plus models), I could see the display taking a sizeable amount of power over a given period of time. Though this won't account for any peaks in power consumption for either the LCD or the SoC.

 

A 10C discharge rating for even a lower performance 1500 mAh battery would give you 15 amps, or (15 x 3.7v) about 55 watts (give or take depending on charge state, voltage sag, etc). Has anyone actually measured the power draw in detail on these phones?

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Mr.Meerkat said:

Here's a fun fact, both the A11 and the A10 have bigger dies than their snapdragon equivalents (S835 and S820). Just in case you didn't know . 

You need to remember to account other components. In fact, in a phone, the modem and display (if its LCD) are probably more power hungry than the CPU/GPU (overall, excluding demanding games as that taxes the CPU and GPU particularly plus not that many people actually play demanding titles on their phones). This means that even if the chips were throttled to a lower but still usable state, it might not necessarily make a huge enough difference to battery life. Due batteries only being able to be cycled a couple hundred of cycles (typically 300-500) before they have degraded to an unideal state, even with the lower performance, as battery life isn't impacted majorly, the battery may degrade just as fast. 

Discharge rate can have a big effect:

 

(Graph of a single Cell)

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharge_characteristics_li

 

Please note this is just a general graph and different Lithium-Ion types will have different characteristics but a higher current draw will always stress the battery more reducing the usable cycle life.

[ravenshrike]

6 hours ago, Valentyn said:

They've been doing a lot to try and help consumers really when you weigh it up compared to issues with some other phone makes.

Doing all they could would have been a login notification when the issue was detected with the option to continue in full power mode or lower clocks with an explanation of the effects either way.

[Mooshi]

ALL manufacturers should just add a warning + reasonable cost to replace batteries. Smartphones, outside of games, do the same damn basic function of searching the web, streaming and email. No reason to toss every 2 years.

[mr moose]

11 minutes ago, Mooshi said:

ALL manufacturers should just add a warning + reasonable cost to replace batteries. Smartphones, outside of games, do the same damn basic function of searching the web, streaming and email. No reason to toss every 2 years.

 

It does bring up two very important points:

 

1. is there anything intrinsic to a new phone that an old phone can't do? (maybe security or the general economics of maintain tech development).

2. If your phone is still adequate after 2 years and just needs a new battery, then surely for the sake of the environment and lithium deposits etc that a replaceable battery is more responsible.

 

 

[Mooshi]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

It does bring up two very important points:

 

1. is there anything intrinsic to a new phone that an old phone can't do? (maybe security or the general economics of maintain tech development).

2. If your phone is still adequate after 2 years and just needs a new battery, then surely for the sake of the environment and lithium deposits etc that a replaceable battery is more responsible.

 

 

 

My old phone had terrible audio for voice calls so I'd consider that a legitimate reason for upgrading. Outside that, doing the exact same stuff. Not a huge mobile gamer so the boost in GPU power isn't really a selling point for me. Dunno why people just bin perfectly working phones just for the sake of new shiny toy.

[Whiskers]

I've hidden some posts in this thread.

 

Please discuss the topic without resorting to personal attacks on those you disagree with. Just because someone holds a different opinion than you do doesn't mean it's acceptable to suggest they're a shill or that their opinion is invalid.

 

Keep it civil, or the thread will be locked. Let's not ruin what can be an interesting discussion.

[Godlygamer23]

On 12/29/2017 at 3:23 PM, Mr.Meerkat said:

Here's a fun fact, both the A11 and the A10 have bigger dies than their snapdragon equivalents (S835 and S820). Just in case you didn't know . 

"Equivalent" should be used lightly here as the A11 offers much better performance than the Snapdragon 835. 

 

Using the S8 and S8 Plus, the iPhone X gets a single-core score of 4,196 and a multi-core score of 10,247, whereas the S8 Plus gets 1,956 and 6,432 respectively. Apple is a fair bit ahead of the competition, especially since they have 3 cores, and the Snapdragon 835 has 8. It goes back to what I was saying...If Apple wanted to achieve the same performance as they are now, but with a smaller footprint(and same lithography), they'd have to turn the frequency way up.

 

So while the dies are bigger, they cram more performance into their chips than Qualcomm and other competitors. 

[Shreyas1]

Why didn’t apple just say they do slow down phones in the TOS that no one reads 

[mynameisjuan]

2 hours ago, Godlygamer23 said:

"Equivalent" should be used lightly here as the A11 offers much better performance than the Snapdragon 835. 

 

Using the S8 and S8 Plus, the iPhone X gets a single-core score of 4,196 and a multi-core score of 10,247, whereas the S8 Plus gets 1,956 and 6,432 respectively. Apple is a fair bit ahead of the competition, especially since they have 3 cores, and the Snapdragon 835 has 8. It goes back to what I was saying...If Apple wanted to achieve the same performance as they are now, but with a smaller footprint(and same lithography), they'd have to turn the frequency way up.

 

So while the dies are bigger, they cram more performance into their chips than Qualcomm and other competitors. 

Wow such good benchmark numbers....

 

Or you can compare them side by side in real world use and even old 821s on the 6P are just as snappy. But if you edit video or pics on your phone for some fucking reason then iphone wins. 

[orbitalbuzzsaw]

Getting what they deserve, finally.

[Lord Nicoll]

On 12/29/2017 at 3:56 PM, Valentyn said:

snip

In the EU phones have a 2 year minimum warranty, so slowing the phone to avoid the fact the battery has degraded while in warranty could also be another offense, since they're avoiding covering the issue. 

[William Payne]

Anything that could be interpreted as planned obsolescence from any company (not just apple) is illegal in France. Its illegal to intentionally make products perform worse to encourage the purchase of new. Even if the intention was good. 

 

In my personal experience with electronics like phones and computers. I generally think that after a few years it is kind of old and I should expect at some time to have to replace it. I would have replaced my iPhone 5 ages ago, however budget constraints and other priorities have stopped me. The fact that it still does what I need it to even though it is old has sort of put it lower down on the priority level when it comes to replacement. 

 

I have a older HP laptop from 2012 that I really should look at replacing as well. It has been due for replacement for a while.

[Zodiark1593]

3 hours ago, Godlygamer23 said:

"Equivalent" should be used lightly here as the A11 offers much better performance than the Snapdragon 835. 

 

Using the S8 and S8 Plus, the iPhone X gets a single-core score of 4,196 and a multi-core score of 10,247, whereas the S8 Plus gets 1,956 and 6,432 respectively. Apple is a fair bit ahead of the competition, especially since they have 3 cores, and the Snapdragon 835 has 8. It goes back to what I was saying...If Apple wanted to achieve the same performance as they are now, but with a smaller footprint(and same lithography), they'd have to turn the frequency way up.

 

So while the dies are bigger, they cram more performance into their chips than Qualcomm and other competitors. 

What are the odds that the frequency that Apple runs the CPU cores at is higher than what they've published?

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Shreyas1 said:

Why didn’t apple just say they do slow down phones in the TOS that no one reads 

I honestly think they were hoping not to have to slow them.   The issue I guess is that this isn't bleeding edge uncharted technology, they could easily predict the average life span and charge cycles resulting form the battery size they settled on.   In effect they knew this was going to happen, however I guess putting it in the ToS means that the one or two people who love scouring over those things for controversial news topics would have picked it up.  I would say that with the old trope about IOS slowing old phones, they didn't want to stir the pot.

[leadeater]

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

ToS means that the one or two people who love scouring over those things for controversial news topics would have picked it up

Like the Nvidia GeForce datacenter topic

[mr moose]

20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Like the Nvidia GeForce datacenter topic

exactly. 

[johnbanks]

On 12/30/2017 at 3:21 AM, Energycore said:

Hey there!

 

Please edit your post to meet our Tech News and Reviews posting guidelines -

 

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I didn't copy the article. Just mentioned the source and Posted my views along with it. What's wrong with that? 

[RagnarokDel]

This would never have become an issue if they just allowed people to change their batteries in the first place.

[johnbanks]

55 minutes ago, RagnarokDel said:

This would never have become an issue if they just allowed people to change their batteries in the first place.

You're absolutely right my friend. They shouldn't have done this.

[Bit_Guardian]

53 minutes ago, RagnarokDel said:

This would never have become an issue if they just allowed people to change their batteries in the first place.

Let's please apply this little gem of logic to Tesla and their cars. Both pieces of tech are incredibly complex, so why does Tesla get a free pass on requiring their own technicians to replace batteries?