Apple could be subject to criminal charges in France over phone slowdowns

[jagdtigger]

6 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

Let's please apply this little gem of logic to Tesla and their cars. Both pieces of tech are incredibly complex, so why does Tesla get a free pass on requiring their own technicians to replace batteries?

For starters dont compare a low voltage battery to a high performance high voltage battery. 4.x V is pretty much safe, but a high voltage EV battery will make you into charcoal pretty easily(okay maybe not charcoal but it will kill you in a second). BTW my S5 is pretty complex but interestingly i can pop off the back cover and freely replace the battery... What apple did is pure greed.

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

Let's please apply this little gem of logic to Tesla and their cars. Both pieces of tech are incredibly complex, so why does Tesla get a free pass on requiring their own technicians to replace batteries?

They don't get a free pass. In both cases if you replace the battery yourself you void the warranty.  The main difference though is that in many countries the voltage in the Tesla cars is too high to be legally carried out with some form of restricted license.

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

but a high voltage EV battery will make you into charcoal pretty easily(okay maybe not charcoal but it will kill you in a second).

That's not far off tbh, if it really lets go you could very easily be a black smoking mark on the ground. Don't think it's high enough voltage to do that but that's what happens to people who try and steal large copper cables from power relay stations and take an axe to the phase cable by mistake. There is enough energy in an EV battery to do it though,

[Bit_Guardian]

16 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

For starters dont compare a low voltage battery to a high performance high voltage battery. 4.x V is pretty much safe, but a high voltage EV battery will make you into charcoal pretty easily(okay maybe not charcoal but it will kill you in a second). BTW my S5 is pretty complex but interestingly i can pop off the back cover and freely replace the battery... What apple did is pure greed.

They are comparable, as both can be replaced by the average strength human with very little personal risk if common sense is applied.

 

As for the high voltage, that is pretty much alleviated by providing basic safety information.

 

You mean what every phone maker has done.

 

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That's not far off tbh, if it really lets go you could very easily be a black smoking mark on the ground. Don't think it's high enough voltage to do that but that's what happens to people who try and steal large copper cables from power relay stations and take an axe to the phase cable by mistake. There is enough energy in an EV battery to do it though,

Aren't phase cables at close to 220V and something insane like 50 amps?

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

They are comparable, as both can be replaced by the average strength human with very little personal risk if common sense is applied.

 

 

 

Not in Australia they aren't, if you fuck up your iphone no one gives a shit, but if you fail to follow the AS/NZS 3000:2000 Electrical installations standards and specifically section 7.9 (Hazardous areas)  and something goes wrong your ass is toast and your insurance is forfeit.   It's exactly like doing your own brake mods or vehicle lift.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Bit_Guardian said:

Aren't phase cables at close to 220V and something insane like 50 amps?

Lithium Ion batteries of that size can put out thousands of amps. But no those people stealing copper cables are doing in to 10KV, 30KV relay/substations, crazy idiots. Seen a few nasty photos when people have gotten it wrong.

[leadeater]

23 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

They are comparable, as both can be replaced by the average strength human with very little personal risk if common sense is applied.

lol what?

 

Quote

The 85 kWh battery pack weighs 1,200 lb (540 kg) and contains 7,104 lithium-ion battery cells in 16 modules wired in series (14 in the flat section and two stacked on the front).

 

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

2 hours ago, johnbanks said:

I didn't copy the article. Just mentioned the source and Posted my views along with it. What's wrong with that?

 

 

Energycore clearly stated what was wrong in his post, but apparently you didn't notice it.  So I'll do it again. 

Quote

Your thread should also include quotes from the cited source(s). While you shouldn't just copy the entire article, your quote should give the reader a summary of the article in a way that gives the key details, but also leaves room for them to read the full article on the linked website. Please use quote tags to show that you have copied this content from another site.

 

No worries, lots of people make such mistakes at first.  Many don't even get any of the guidelines right.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, Bit_Guardian said:

They are comparable, as both can be replaced by the average strength human with very little personal risk if common sense is applied.

 

As for the high voltage, that is pretty much alleviated by providing basic safety information.

 

You mean what every phone maker has done.

 

Aren't phase cables at close to 220V and something insane like 50 amps?

If you think high voltage DC has "very little personal risk" then you are even dumber than i thought... Taking your tesla example if i remember correctly the battery is 400 V, to put it into contrast this voltage is found in high performance 3 phase industrial machines in Europe!

 

/EDIT

And just FYI you cant disable the high voltage system in the car without the manufacturers proprietary software that is only available for their own brand services...

Edited January 1, 2018 by jagdtigger

[Bit_Guardian]

49 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Not in Australia they aren't, if you fuck up your iphone no one gives a shit, but if you fail to follow the AS/NZS 3000:2000 Electrical installations standards and specifically section 7.9 (Hazardous areas)  and something goes wrong your ass is toast and your insurance is forfeit.   It's exactly like doing your own brake mods or vehicle lift.

And I chalk that up to unnecessary government overregulation, but that's a separate debate. Anyone of average strength and intellect with their wits about them can replace an EV car battery safely with pretty much no risk to anyone else.

 

49 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Lithium Ion batteries of that size can put out thousands of amps. But no those people stealing copper cables are doing in to 10KV, 30KV relay/substations, crazy idiots. Seen a few nasty photos when people have gotten it wrong.

Ah, right, it's not 110/220 until it passes through the transformers outside the home. Not my area of expertise beyond "don't fuck with that."

 

42 minutes ago, leadeater said:

lol what?

 

 

You might need some lifting tools and a good strap or two, but I've seen people replace a Chevy Volt battery in their garage.

 

12 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

If you think high voltage DC has "very little personal risk" then you are even dumber than i thought... Taking your tesla example if i remember correctly the battery is 400 V, to put it into contrast this voltage is found in high performance 3 phase industrial machines in Europe!

And you'd have to be a dumbass to get shocked by it considering you'd either have to puncture the battery or circumvent the protections around the input and output which only naturally open when interfacing with the proprietary cable connectors used on the Tesla.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

You might need some lifting tools and a good strap or two, but I've seen people replace a Chevy Volt battery in their garage.

Which is half the weight of a Tesla battery and requiring proper shop tools makes it a non user replaceable part, just like an engine isn't one but if I had the skills and hoist I could replace it but both are firmly out of the 'user replaceable' territory. It's also unsafe to do it alone due to the weight and risk of injury if something goes wrong.

 

Cars come with tools to change wheels, they don't come with an engine hoist .

 

I can take the cover off my Nokia 635 without any tools and take the battery out, now that is user replaceable.

 

The difference between these two cases is you can design a phone to have a user replaceable battery but you can't do the same for an EV car for multiple reasons, weight and electrical and automotive safety reasons.

[Bit_Guardian]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Which is half the weight of a Tesla battery and requiring proper shop tools makes it a non user replaceable part, just like an engine isn't one but if I had the skills and hoist I could replace it but both are firmly out of the 'user replaceable' territory. It's also unsafe to do it alone due to the weight and risk of injury if something goes wrong.

 

Cars come with tools to change wheels, they don't come with an engine hoist .

 

I can take the cover off my Nokia 635 without any tools and take the battery out, now that is user replaceable.

 

The difference between these two cases is you can design a phone to have a user replaceable battery but you can't do the same for an EV car for multiple reasons, weight and electrical and automotive safety reasons.

The only reason Tesla's are near impossible to be serviced by Joe Consumer is they mounted the damn thing on the bottom of the car. Now, from a security standpoint, maybe that is best. I can't say I know for sure.

 

Except users can definitely replace some EV batteries just fine. Engines are another matter.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

The only reason Tesla's are near impossible to be serviced by Joe Consumer is they mounted the damn thing on the bottom of the car. Now, from a security standpoint, maybe that is best. I can't say I know for sure.

It's at the bottom due to it's weight for center of gravity and chassis performance reasons, unless you want your car to roll over easily.

 

4 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

Except users can definitely replace some EV batteries just fine. Engines are another matter.

Only smaller batteries, a 500kg+ battery will never be a user replaceable part simply down to weight. Remember a typical V6 engine is half the weight of a Tesla battery, I don't care what tools you have at home or help you can get it's not ever going to be user replaceable and who the hell cares? Labor cost to do it is like 1% of the battery cost, unlike a phone battery.

[Bit_Guardian]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's at the bottom due to it's weight for center of gravity and chassis performance reasons, unless you want your car to roll over easily.

 

Only smaller batteries, a 500kg+ battery will never be a user replaceable part simply down to weight. Remember a typical V6 engine is half the weight of a Tesla battery, I don't care what tools you have at home or help you can get it's not ever going to be user replaceable and who the hell cares? Labor cost to do it is like 1% of the battery cost, unlike a phone battery.

Not even with those augmentation suits the U.S. military designed multiplying human strength by 5x thanks to carbon nanotube technology?

[mr moose]

23 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

And I chalk that up to unnecessary government overregulation, but that's a separate debate. Anyone of average strength and intellect with their wits about them can replace an EV car battery safely with pretty much no risk to anyone else.

 

 

Um, yeah sure unnecessary.   It never ceases to amaze how much people think they know it all,  yeah sure anyone can replace a 400V lithium pack in a vehicle, you don't need an education for that.    

 

They don't just pull these regulations out of their ass holes and insurance companies don't arbitrarily decide who gets insurance and who doesn't, it's based on the statistics of accidents.

[leadeater]

Just now, Bit_Guardian said:

Not even with those augmentation suits the U.S. military designed multiplying human strength by 5x thanks to carbon nanotube technology?

Balance would still be a problem . "I got it out... oh crap oh crap... I'm tipping over, HELP!!" lol.

[johnbanks]

1 hour ago, Captain Chaos said:

 

 

Energycore clearly stated what was wrong in his post, but apparently you didn't notice it.  So I'll do it again. 

 

No worries, lots of people make such mistakes at first.  Many don't even get any of the guidelines right.

Oh, sorry, Now I know. I will try to make it right next time. Quotations are necessary. (Y)

[Bit_Guardian]

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Um, yeah sure unnecessary.   It never ceases to amaze how much people think they know it all,  yeah sure anyone can replace a 400V lithium pack in a vehicle, you don't need an education for that.    

 

They don't just pull these regulations out of their ass holes and insurance companies don't arbitrarily decide who gets insurance and who doesn't, it's based on the statistics of accidents.

It requires a formal education, or just a decent 5-page instruction manual? It's not like programming requires a formal education. Enough practice and you could have a teenager doing my current job easily. It's not about knowing it all. It's about knowing what you can figure out and reasonably handle.

 

You don't have to be a trained electrician to figure out how to wire up a car battery, even a full EV one. You just need the tools and strength to get batteries in and out of the cavity.

 

 

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, Bit_Guardian said:

It requires a formal education, or just a decent 5-page instruction manual? It's not like programming requires a formal education. Enough practice and you could have a teenager doing my current job easily. It's not about knowing it all. It's about knowing what you can figure out and reasonably handle.

 

You don't have to be a trained electrician to figure out how to wire up a car battery, even a full EV one. You just need the tools and strength to get batteries in and out of the cavity.

 

 

 

 

 Look up dunning kruger.  

 

EDIT: given the CS says not to do that I'll explain.  Dunning Kruger is the effect where people fail to adequately assess their abilities due to not having any formal point of reference or experience in said field.   In other words people are over confident and don't know when they are doing something wrong or making a mistake.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

 

 

 

[leadeater]

32 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 Look up dunning kruger.  

 

EDIT: given the CS says not to do that I'll explain.  Dunning Kruger is the effect where people fail to adequately assess their abilities due to not having any formal point of reference or experience in said field.   In other words people are over confident and don't know when they are doing something wrong or making a mistake.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

Even with that aside it's a legal and regulation issue, self train all you like it's not the same. Being good at electronics and knowing electrical safety is actually very different things. You can be the smartest electrical engineer around in your field and still have no idea the proper and safe way to install a solar array, or 3 phase isolation switch for UPS bypass or 48V PoE midspan injector.

 

Electrical safety certification is not an indicator of your knowledge or competence of electrical theories and practical ability to do a job in the field, it teaches you how to not die and how to help others who need it.

 

I'm good at electronics, I can build my own stuff but I firmly stick below the legal limits (50V) because I know my limits and understand why they are there. There are a few things we are allowed to work on for 230V AC and that is wiring an extra light socket, very minimal stuff, but I always consult with my father first who has limited electrical registration and I always test to make sure anything I'm working on is not live.

 

Unlike most other home handy man tasks electrical work is by far the most dangerous and least understood. Even if I cut my finger off or put an axe in to my foot I'm less likely to die than a mistake when working on mains power. Never work alone.

[leadeater]

41 minutes ago, mr moose said:

EDIT: given the CS says not to do that I'll explain.  Dunning Kruger is the effect where people fail to adequately assess their abilities due to not having any formal point of reference or experience in said field.   In other words people are over confident and don't know when they are doing something wrong or making a mistake.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

Omg I just have to post this, one the the funniest things I've seen, just LOL!

 

Quote

The identification derived from the cognitive bias evident in the criminal case of McArthur Wheeler, who robbed banks with his face covered with lemon juice, which he believed would make it invisible to the surveillance cameras. This belief was based on his misunderstanding the chemical properties of lemon juice as an invisible ink.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Bit_Guardian said:

And you'd have to be a dumbass to get shocked by it considering you'd either have to puncture the battery or circumvent the protections around the input and output which only naturally open when interfacing with the proprietary cable connectors used on the Tesla.

And you are even bigger dumbass if you think changing the HV battery is just the same as the conventional 12V battery... Its an entirely different beast, and if you try to disconnect it without the proper knowledge it is very likely that damage will occur in the HV system. (taken out the last sentence, i had the wrong number in my head about air's insulation capabilty)

[RagnarokDel]

4 hours ago, Bit_Guardian said:

Let's please apply this little gem of logic to Tesla and their cars. Both pieces of tech are incredibly complex, so why does Tesla get a free pass on requiring their own technicians to replace batteries?

I didnt even know that was a thing but let's be real, you're going to need a technician(mechanic) to change an electric car battery. You dont need a technician to turn your phone off, pop a screw or slide the back open and swipe a battery.

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

They don't get a free pass. In both cases if you replace the battery yourself you void the warranty.  The main difference though is that in many countries the voltage in the Tesla cars is too high to be legally carried out with some form of restricted license.

They cant void your warranty for that, just like you can take your car to a mechanic and get the brakes changed without voiding the warranty.

2 hours ago, Bit_Guardian said:

The only reason Tesla's are near impossible to be serviced by Joe Consumer is they mounted the damn thing on the bottom of the car. Now, from a security standpoint, maybe that is best. I can't say I know for sure.

 

Except users can definitely replace some EV batteries just fine. Engines are another matter.

 

WTF were they supposed to do? Put it on the top? They wouldnt be able to turn ever without flipping.

 

[Technomancer__]

It should show a notification that the battery needs to be changed and recommend enabling throttleing not doing it secretly

[Energycore]

8 hours ago, johnbanks said:

I didn't copy the article. Just mentioned the source and Posted my views along with it. What's wrong with that? 

We have a specific format that all TnR posts must follow to avoid thread clutter, you still need to quote the source

 

Quote

Kinda like this. Find what you think is relevant from the source and paste it in a quote.