Microsoft announces the Surface Laptop - aimed at students

[crystal6tak]

2 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

The SP3 also doesn't include a keyboard (plus the keyboard/trackpad suck) and it also offers a terrible laptop experience, oh and it's also old (i.e. it wasn't selling for that when it was new).

Forgot to check keyboard, but still, SP4 keyboard goes for 97.68$, so 743$ total. Still much lower than 999$. The SP4 keyboard/trackpad is fine, totally acceptable for a student on budget. And what do you mean terrible laptop experience? The i5-4300U is enough for a student doing word processing, web browsing, ppt making, etc.

 

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I'm guessing you haven't tried to write any form of assessments on the go on a 12" tablet before? When you add a keyboard and mouse the benefits of small become messy.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. I own a SP3 i3, I have no problem writing essays with it...

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Pandalf said:

Are they nuts offering such a limited OS on a $1000+ laptop? UWP is far from developed and it won't become a thing, regardless the push it gets from MS. The good thing is that you can switch for free to a proper Windows, which the device doesn't come with, because of Microsoft's desperate push for a failing application platform. It would've made much more sense if it was offered on cheap laptops, competing with the Chromebooks. For a $1000 base model, it just makes no sense.

I've heard very similar arguments about apple when they were still in their infancy.   It might flop or it might become the next big thing in education settings.  Hell it might be one of those things that just becomes the next big everything.   Besides all that the OS is up gradable to full win 10 at the moment. 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

I use my Pro 4 and it's not small. Trust me, i know by the way you wrote that, you haven't tried one before. Speaking from experience is less misleading and more genuine then making stuff up.

 

I have, I can't do it. I can't use small keyboards either. In fact many people I know can't and don't like the small keyboards that go with tablets.  hence my assumption.  I am glad you can.

[79wjd]

4 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

The trackpad is awesome compared to other windows laptops. I don't know where or how you test laptops but the trackpad is damn awesome compared to Acer, HP or Lenovo laptops.

 

I almost never put a laptop on my lap. That is rather silly. I always use a table or structure because people put laptops on tables and not their laps.

Compared to other shitty trackpads, maybe. But compared to a good trackpad, like the one on the XPS 13, it's crap. 

 

A LOT of people use their laptops on their laps. 

3 minutes ago, crystal6tak said:

Forgot to check keyboard, but still, SP4 keyboard goes for 97.68$, so 743$ total. Still much lower than 999$. The SP4 keyboard/trackpad is fine, totally acceptable for a student on budget. And what do you mean terrible laptop experience? The i5-4300U is enough for a student doing word processing, web browsing, ppt making, etc.

 

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. I own a SP3 i3, I have no problem writing essays with it...

Still not new. I own a SP3 too and it offers such a shitty laptop experience compared to an actual laptop -- and it's not just because the keyboard/laptop are trash. It's unstable if you want to use it anywhere other than on a desk, which is very limiting. 

 

[AlTech]

Just now, crystal6tak said:

Forgot to check keyboard, but still, SP4 keyboard goes for 97.68$, so 743$ total. Still much lower than 999$. The SP4 keyboard/trackpad is fine, totally acceptable for a student on budget. And what do you mean terrible laptop experience? The i5-4300U is enough for a student doing word processing, web browsing, ppt making, etc.

 

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. I own a SP3 i3, I have no problem writing essays with it...

I have no problems writing essays on my Pro 4. I guess people are being whiny without trying hardware.

3 minutes ago, Pandalf said:

Are they nuts offering such a limited OS on a $1000+ laptop? UWP is far from developed and it won't become a thing, regardless the push it gets from MS. The good thing is that you can switch for free to a proper Windows, which the device doesn't come with, because of Microsoft's desperate push for a failing application platform.

If you are happy with Win32 then go back to 2003. We're in 2017. Don't like it? Then I'd recommend you stop using Windows 10 and move to Linux or  BSD.

 

UWP is the future whether you like it or not. Win32 is legacy and they will try to discontinue it whenever they have the chance.

3 minutes ago, Pandalf said:

It would've made much more sense if it was offered on cheap laptops, competing with the Chromebooks. For a $1000 base model, it just makes no sense.

This is an aspirational device. This isn't going to sell 1 billion units.

[79wjd]

Just now, AluminiumTech said:

Don't like it? Then I'd recommend you stop using Windows 10 and move to Linux or  BSD.

You might as well, Linux probably has better application support while not having all the telemetry nonsense.

[AlTech]

10 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Compared to other shitty trackpads, maybe. But compared to a good trackpad, like the one on the XPS 13, it's crap. 

 I used the trackpad on the XPS 15 (2015 or 2016 model) once and I was not impressed.....

Quote

A LOT of people use their laptops on their laps. 

Really? Cos the only 1 person on one day out of years has used it on their lap when i saw them using it.

 

And that 1 person was a student using an overpriced MBP 15" Late 2016 Touchbar model.

 

99.999999% of people i see using laptops use it on a table or a desk.

Quote

Still not new. I own a SP3 too and it offers such a shitty laptop experience compared to an actual laptop -- and it's not just because the keyboard/laptop are trash. It's unstable if you want to use it anywhere other than on a desk, which is very limiting.

The SP4 keyboard works fine on a lap if you actually use it like that.

[crystal6tak]

10 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Compared to other shitty trackpads, maybe. But compared to a good trackpad, like the one on the XPS 13, it's crap. 

 

A LOT of people use their laptops on their laps. 

Still not new. I own a SP3 too and it offers such a shitty laptop experience compared to an actual laptop -- and it's not just because the keyboard/laptop are trash. It's unstable if you want to use it anywhere other than on a desk, which is very limiting. 

 

I do agree SP3/4's hinge stand makes it limited in use case scenarios (ie. a lap). But I suppose it's up to the student to decide if that's an issue. (Chances are it's not, I rarely see people use laptops on a lap, maybe if you got an essay due tmr and you gotta poop or something)

 

The XPS 13 i5 128gb 8gb also goes for $999, so it's best to compare that to another $999 laptop. I do see there's a $800 option, but I'm strongly opposed to i3+4gb, utterly terrible experience...

[AlTech]

 

Just now, crystal6tak said:

The XPS 13 i5 128gb 8gb also goes for $999, so it's best to compare that to another $999 laptop. I do see there's a $800 option, but I'm strongly apposed to i3+4gb, utterly terrible experience...

I think any device such as a laptop around $1000 USD should net somebody a minimum of an i5 + 8GB RAM.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

 I used the trackpad on the XPS 15 (2015 or 2016 model) once and I was not impressed.....

Really? Cos the only 1 person on one day out of years has used it on their lap when i saw them using it.

 

And that 1 person was a student using an overpriced MBP 15 2017 Touchbar model.

 

99.999999% of people i see using laptops use it on a table or a desk.

The SP4 keyboard works fine on a lap if you actually use it like that.

that's a very specific number.  I see them being used on beds, in trains, in waiting rooms in hospitals, on the grass at school and so on.  Most of them students transcribing for extra income or trying to get the last of their work done before they have to start work. 

 

At the end of the day whether people like it or not, some people are going to like this and want one because it suits there needs.  I don't understand why this is hard to accept.

[Shoob]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I've heard very similar arguments about apple when they were still in their infancy.   It might flop or it might become the next big thing in education settings.  Hell it might be one of those things that just becomes the next big everything.   Besides all that the OS is up gradable to full win 10 at the moment. 

As long as there is an option to upgrade to a proper Windows, then it's fine. If Microsoft decides to pull the plug of that feature, then it'll become an expensive paperweight, because nobody is in Microsoft's perfect world of only UWP applications. The Windows Store hasn't developed much, since it became a thing and it's not a proper alternative for pretty much everyone.

 

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

If you are happy with Win32 then go back to 2003. We're in 2017. Don't like it? Then I'd recommend you stop using Windows 10 and move to Linux or  BSD.

UWP is the future whether you like it or not. Win32 is legacy and they will try to discontinue it whenever they have the chance.

No, you can't forcefully switch people from a platform that has been developed for years, WinAPI is here to stay. Windows isn't a recent platform like Android and iOS, so they can't afford to make radical changes, without offering a proper alternative. UWP in its current state doesn't even come close to being a viable alternative, and that's unlikely to change. The majority of people don't give a damn about the Windows Store and the only thing they do is to unpin it from the taskbar and forget about its existence.

[79wjd]

8 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Better application support than Windows 10?

 

And people call me stupid.....

Better application support than UWP. And I did say probably. 

9 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

 I used the trackpad on the XPS 15 (2015 or 2016 model) once and I was not impressed.....

Really? Cos the only 1 person on one day out of years has used it on their lap when i saw them using it.

 

And that 1 person was a student using an overpriced MBP 15 2017 Touchbar model.

 

99.999999% of people i see using laptops use it on a table or a desk.

The SP4 keyboard works fine on a lap if you actually use it like that.

It's still far better than the one on the SP4, although I still vastly prefer the trackpads on the rMBP. 

 

I've seen a lot of people using their laptops on their laps, and what do you do if you're using it while in bed, during a commute, waiting between classes, etc....? Do you have a desk over your bed, do you carry a fold up desk with you? I spend at least 50% of the time using my laptop on my lap. 

 

It's workable on a lap, it's far from being as good as an actual laptop where you don't have to balance a stand on your knees and a flimsy ass keyboard on your thighs. 

6 minutes ago, crystal6tak said:

I do agree SP3/4's hinge stand makes it limited in use case scenarios (ie. a lap). But I suppose it's up to the student to decide if that's an issue. (Chances are it's not, I rarely see people use laptops on a lap, maybe if you got an essay due tmr and you gotta poop or something)

 

The XPS 13 i5 128gb 8gb also goes for $999, so it's best to compare that to another $999 laptop. I do see there's a $800 option, but I'm strongly apposed to i3+4gb, utterly terrible experience...

The XPS 13 is an all around better choice imo considering the 8gb (and 256gb ssd) Surface Laptop is $1300, however, the screen is still worse -- I find 1080p to be too low for my needs, but because of that I'm also not really in the market for a lower end ultrabook and everyone's needs are different. 

 

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

Better application support than UWP. 

Ummm no...

 

There are over 500,000 UWP/Universal apps. Find me a source which indicates how many linux apps there are which also have a windows version.

 

Quote

I've seen a lot of people using their laptops on their laps, and what do you do if you're using it while in bed?

I haven't used it in bed but if i had then i would have used the touchscreen.

Quote

Do you have a desk over your bed? I spend at least 50% of the time using my laptop on my lap. 

ok. I spent almost all the time on my laptop at a desk or on a table.

 

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Ummm no...

 

There are over 500,000 UWP apps. Find me a source which indicates how many linux apps there are which also have a windows version.

 

I haven't used it in bed but if i had then i would have used the touchscreen.

ok. I spent almost all the time on my laptop at a desk or on a table.

 

And how many of those 500,000 apps are actually something that people want or use? The Android app store also has over a million apps, most are still crap. 

 

Congrats, but a lot of people use them on their laps. 

[Shoob]

Just now, AluminiumTech said:

Ummm no...

 

There are over 500,000 UWP apps. Find me a source which indicates how many linux apps there are which also have a windows version.

How about proper desktop applications, that exist thanks to WinAPI or for Linux and not 200 calculators and 500 flashlights?

[crystal6tak]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

that's a very specific number.  I see them being used on beds, in trains, in waiting rooms in hospitals, on the grass at school and so on.  Most of them students transcribing for extra income or trying to get the last of their work done before they have to start work. 

 

At the end of the day whether people like it or not, some people are going to like this and want one because it suits there needs.  I don't understand why this is hard to accept.

I do accept that, I'm just saying for (probably) a large portion of the market, the SP3 i5 + SP4 keyboard is a much cheaper and still satisfactory option for students.

 

2 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

The XPS 13 is an all around better choice imo considering the 8gb (and 256gb ssd) Surface Laptop is $1300, however, the screen is still worse -- I find 1080p to be too low for my needs, but because of that I'm also not really in the market for a lower end ultrabook and everyone's needs are different. 

 

If they have the money, sure XPS 13 is better... Again, the SP3 + SP4 keyboard goes for $743, and my point is that's an awesome choice for students on a budget (much more so than this surface laptop thing)

 

Also, SP3 comes with an awesome 2160x1440p display. XPS 13 is stuck at 1080p until you fork over 1700$ to get a 3200x1800 display.

[LAwLz]

12 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

If you are happy with Win32 then go back to 2003. We're in 2017.

You're making the fatal mistake of thinking that newer means better. It doesn't.

 

 

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

Ummm no...

 

There are over 500,000 UWP/Universal apps. Find me a source which indicates how many linux apps there are which also have a windows version.

Does that include all the fake apps that are just links to scam websites? How many of those are duplicates, like 1000 different flashlight apps?

 

If you really think UWP has a larger and better library of programs than GNU/Linux then you are very out of touch with the real world.

[AlTech]

Just now, Pandalf said:

How about proper desktop applications, that exist thanks to WinAPI or for Linux and not 200 calculators and 500 flashlights?

If you're not an expert on Windows APIs or SDKs, I wouldn't make intelligent comments about them if i were you.

 

I use development tools and UWP is a lot easier to work with than Win32. WinAPI doesn't exist,

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

 like 1000 different flashlight apps?

Now now, you know there is no substitute for decent flashlight app on a laptop.  I don't even own a torch anymore I just carry my laptop around. 

 

 

[AlTech]

 

Just now, LAwLz said:

Does that include all the fake apps that are just links to scam websites? How many of those are duplicates, like 1000 different flashlight apps?

A lot of fake apps have been removed. Scam apps also have been removed. Sure, the store is not 100% perfect but no storefront is.

Just now, LAwLz said:

If you really think UWP has a larger and better library of programs than GNU/Linux then you are very out of touch with the real world.

This is what i said........

 

Quote

Find me a source which indicates how many linux apps there are which also have a windows version.

 

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, crystal6tak said:

I do accept that, I'm just saying for (probably) a large portion of the market, the SP3 i5 + SP4 keyboard is a much cheaper and still satisfactory option for students.

 

If they have the money, sure XPS 13 is better... Again, the SP3 + SP4 keyboard goes for $743, and my point is that's an awesome choice for students on a budget (much more so than this surface laptop thing)

 

Also, SP3 comes with an awesome 2160x1440p display. XPS 13 is stuck at 1080p until you fork over 1700$ to get a 3200x1800 display.

It's cheaper and certainly an option for people, but I also don't think it's fair to use as a price argument. I'm sure I could also find a 2014 XPS 15 that makes the current XPS 15 look like a terrible deal. 

 

Like I said, neither SP3 or XPS 13 (with 1080p) would be options for my main laptop. I use it on my lap too much and I can't stand the keyboard/trackpad for the SP3 to be viable and I can't live with just a 1080p display of the XPS 13. As it is now, I only use my SP3 for taking hand written notes and my MBP for literally everything else. 

[mikat]

21 hours ago, tmcclelland455 said:

That fabric will get nasty as hell with students, I'd imagine.

yes, even macbooks get abused and show marks after several years, and they're made of aluminium, so this fabric will last 3 years tops

but that screen <3 then again the XPS 13 exists  

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

torch

Damn degenerates.....it's called a FLASHLIGHT. 

1 minute ago, mikat said:

yes, even macbooks get abused and show marks after several years, and they're made of aluminium, so this fabric will last 3 years tops

but that screen <3 then again the XPS 13 exists  

The XPS 13 is also stuck at 1080p until like $1400~ (iirc). 

[flibberdipper]

3 minutes ago, mikat said:

yes, even macbooks get abused and show marks after several years, and they're made of aluminium, so this fabric will last 3 years tops

but that screen <3 then again the XPS 13 exists  

Legit I've NEVER seen one of the larger model MBP's that doesn't have at least one dent. Though that said, a 13" non-touchbar with 16GB of RAM is goals for me. Windows is just... ugh.

[mikat]

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

Damn degenerates.....it's called a FLASHLIGHT. 

The XPS 13 is also stuck at 1080p until like $1400~ (iirc). 

yeah I saw that, it's even more shitty here in europe, I just checked, it's 1680 euros  I'm considering this laptop for university for programming, it's only 1 year away and the prices of nice high res screen laptops are still high , currently looking at the XPS 15 4k but it's so expensive