Asus to reveal thinnest GTX1080 laptop?

[TidaLWaveZ]

Just now, MageTank said:

*With the exception of a few. 

 

I see this laptop has an abomination in terms of design, but I suppose we will see when it is released.

Did I miss someone saying something positive about it? If so that asshole ruined my comment.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, TidaLWaveZ said:

Did I miss someone saying something positive about it? If so that asshole ruined my comment.

Quite a few said positive things about it. I do think those that dislike it are in the majority though, for the same reasons. Potentially bad thermals (huge chance of this), awful 4k gaming performance, and mediocre battery life. I have no issue with the keyboard placement or aesthetics of the laptop, as those are subjective, but thermal performance isn't subjective. Either it performs decently cool and doesn't throttle, or it runs hot and throttles hard. A 165w GPU in a 0.6 inch thin device? I'll cast my vote for "Throttles Hard". 

[Mr.Meerkat]

54 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Even at 1080p, the 960m only averaged 38fps in Fallout 4. Even by his own admitted standards, this isn't enough (which is why he wants this new laptop, which again, won't be enough for 4k). 

 

Had they made the panel on this new laptop 1080p, and swapped out to a GTX 1060, this wouldn't be an issue at all. It'd be an amazing 141PPI (nearly as sharp as a 30 inch 4k panel)

Why not a 1440p display? IMO, it's the perfect resolution for people who want a UHD display while wanting 45fps+ (in most games) ultra settings  

 

Also, if they made this laptop with a 1080p display and a 1060, they would be competing in a completely different class of laptops where sub 2.3cm and 2KG laptops already exist so...

 

edit: @MageTank Whoops, brain failed, forgot that this is a sub 17mm laptop...

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, Mr.Meerkat said:

Why not a 1440p display? IMO, it's the perfect resolution for people who want a UHD display while wanting 45fps+ (in most games) ultra settings  

 

Also, if they made this laptop with a 1080p display and a 1060, they would be competing in a completely different class of laptops where sub 2.3cm and 2KG laptops already exist so...

True, 1440p would work for most titles as long as people understand that increasing resolution requires less AA. Don't know how many times I see people running 1440p or 4k with copious amounts of AA, and wonder why they are lagging.

 

That being said, 1440p is probably the best sweet spot for gaming and general use. Not exceedingly difficult to drive vs 1080p, and offers additional desktop real estate (and extra sharpness). G-Sync would also help a ton in situations with lower framerates, so it wouldn't be bad if you went below 60 (as long as you don't go below 30). I just mostly worry about a GTX 1080 from a thermal standpoint. Even a GTX 1070 in a thin device is hard to keep cool at it's estimated 135w TDP. Going with a GTX 1060 would mean better base performance, lower risk of throttle, and if the cooling solution is still better, then more room for natural boosting/overclocking.

[Mr.Meerkat]

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

True, 1440p would work for most titles as long as people understand that increasing resolution requires less AA. Don't know how many times I see people running 1440p or 4k with copious amounts of AA, and wonder why they are lagging.

Then there's me, 1080p 24 inches and no AA ever...considering that I can't see the difference between ultra and medium in most games, AA is even more pointless in my eyes  

[dizmo]

2 hours ago, Syfes said:

Honestly, I'd be cool with that. Imo there's little advantage to trying to use a large laptop on the move at all. They're too big to use comfortably in most places and you never need their full potential while you're about. Brands have been throwing lightweight portable devices at our head for years now, so many people these days already own a tablet, phablet or similar device. My android tablet (with keyboard cover) does everything I need when travelling. In combination with my phone, I can send and receive e-mails, browse the web, read and edit documents, watch video, listen to music,... and those devices last me through an entire day easily. And if not, battery banks to power them are everywhere. It's only when I get to my office or to my hotel (when travelling) that I really do like some proper horsepower. Having something powerful, yet lightweight is ideal for me. Unfortunately I'm stuck with my 3.5 ton weighing Clevo...

I completely agree. The space the battery takes up could be used for much better cooling solutions. Though, I think lightweight solutions like ultrabooks definitely have their place. I'd never trade in my ultrabook for a tablet, it's simply not the same and really, once you add the keyboard to the tablet, you have less capable and/or more expensive solution anyway.

[dizmo]

2 hours ago, MageTank said:

-snip-

 

There are plenty of solutions to that though. Laptop coolers are very cheap, and do a great job at keeping things cool. I own 2, and they help keep my ultrabook from melting when I game. If you're already carrying around a gaming laptop, the cooler isn't much of an added hassle.

Ah yes, my bad. You did link Asus. However my point still stands.

https://www.asus.com/us/Notebooks/ASUS-ZenBook-Pro-UX501VW/Features/

Nothing mentioned about laps there, is there?

 

I think the 1080 would be capable of 4k, just not on ultra. The Titan X can handle it above 60fps, so if you had it on medium with no AA and a few other settings turned down it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Even a 1070 with an i3 can handle 4k with reduced settings pretty well, and it still looks pretty good. I know we'd all like ultra settings, but then there's realistic expectations. I do wonder what'd look better; 720p ultra settings or 4k medium settings (battery consideration aside).

 

If they'd made the suggestions you stated, they'd have a much lower tier laptop. I'm pretty sure they already have a SKU that matches what you want, just in a different form factor. This is meant to be a balls out, top of the line everything machine for those who don't care about cost and likely overall mobility. They're not meant for everyone, and likely few will be sold, but if you don't experiment with such things you won't make improvements in regards to them either. There could very well be a cooling solution for the 1080 in that form factor that works, but if you don't try it out, you'll never know.

The main problem with adding battery is that it also adds weight. If it gets too heavy (enough battery to power a gaming rig for a decent kick) then it loses a great deal of its perceived portability as well.

 

How's the scaling? At 13" I find even 1080p was way, way too small for me. The 900p display I have now is pretty perfect.

 

It happens with every line of work. I worked retail for many years and have just come to assume most people are complete idiots who luck their way through life. I mean really, the number of adults that can't figure out how to buy light bulbs...

I do think that companies marketing teams and engineers are very, very different people and seem to have difficulty communicating "But, it can play League at 4k right? That's a game. It's settled. It's a 4k gaming beast!"

 

[TheKDub]

9 hours ago, dizmo said:

Like to burn your hands do you?

 

How'd you know....

 

I guess it'd be a bit warm that way.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, dizmo said:

There are plenty of solutions to that though. Laptop coolers are very cheap, and do a great job at keeping things cool. I own 2, and they help keep my ultrabook from melting when I game. If you're already carrying around a gaming laptop, the cooler isn't much of an added hassle.

Ah yes, my bad. You did link Asus. However my point still stands.

https://www.asus.com/us/Notebooks/ASUS-ZenBook-Pro-UX501VW/Features/

Nothing mentioned about laps there, is there?

 

But why carry an external laptop cooler, if you can just make the device thicker, and have it built in? Do you not see how silly it is to design something for the sake of thinness, only to thicken it up with an external cooler anyways?

 

2 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I think the 1080 would be capable of 4k, just not on ultra. The Titan X can handle it above 60fps, so if you had it on medium with no AA and a few other settings turned down it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Even a 1070 with an i3 can handle 4k with reduced settings pretty well, and it still looks pretty good. I know we'd all like ultra settings, but then there's realistic expectations. I do wonder what'd look better; 720p ultra settings or 4k medium settings (battery consideration aside).

 

Yes, a GTX 1080 for desktops IS capable of playing 4k titles with tweaked settings, but that's exactly my point. This isn't a desktop 1080. At best, it's a mobile 1080, and at worst, it's a throttled mobile 1080. We already saw the last guy mention his 75w 960m hitting 80C in another ASUS thin laptop. Do you honestly think a 165w GPU will fare better under similar thermal constraints? It will be a shadow of it's former self in that situation.

 

6 minutes ago, dizmo said:

If they'd made the suggestions you stated, they'd have a much lower tier laptop. I'm pretty sure they already have a SKU that matches what you want, just in a different form factor. This is meant to be a balls out, top of the line everything machine for those who don't care about cost and likely overall mobility. They're not meant for everyone, and likely few will be sold, but if you don't experiment with such things you won't make improvements in regards to them either. There could very well be a cooling solution for the 1080 in that form factor that works, but if you don't try it out, you'll never know.

The main problem with adding battery is that it also adds weight. If it gets too heavy (enough battery to power a gaming rig for a decent kick) then it loses a great deal of its perceived portability as well.

Lower tier in what regard? Component selection? Or user experience? Component selection isn't the be all, end all when speaking of laptop tiers. Plenty of features can make a laptop premium tier, without being the absolute best of the best in terms of raw performance. A GTX 1060 with a nice quality 1080p/1440p G-Sync panel and premium build quality will still quality as a premium laptop. A GTX 1080 that throttles to unplayable framerates under load, on a panel that requires people to run a less than native resolution, with heat that is intolerable by most, isn't premium. It's a literal hot mess.

 

I am not trying to tell people their purchasing decisions are bad. I am only trying to warn people of the inevitable if they do buy in to a design like this. If you won't take my word for it, please, look into it for yourself. Look at the Cleveo P870, a very fair thermally designed laptop:

 

Now look at what happens to that GTX 1080 under load: http://www.anandtech.com/show/10795/the-clevo-p870dm2-mythlogic-phobos-8716-laptop-review-dtr-with-gtx-1080/7

Quote

There’s a few things to note in the data. First, the GPU temperature rises to the 90°C limit and never exceeds it. Second, the GPU core clock goes up to about 1900 MHz in boost, until it gets thermally limited and falls down to around 1600 MHz. It isn’t throttling at this point, but moving into the steady state. It never falls below the base clock, but is instead likely hitting its TDP limit for the mobile variant of the GPU. Finally, Rise of the Tomb Raider can eat up huge amounts of RAM, so if you’re going to play this game on Very High, be sure your GPU has more the 4 GB.

Let me remind you, this is on a 1.86 inch thick laptop with 3 rear exhaust fans. The laptop you are looking at in the OP of this thread, is 1/3rd the thickness, and likely will NOT have the same amount of fans (or the luxury of rear exhaust for that matter, due to how thin it is). 

 

Take this information into consideration, then come back and tell me a GTX 1080 will work in that thin chassis. Tell me of a cooling solution that can outperform Clevo's while being 1/3rd the thickness. I certainly do not know of one.

[XenosTech]

3 hours ago, MageTank said:

-snip-

Ah I remember my first ROG laptop.... Gamed on it like it my was desktop and gave myself a heat rash on my thighs. Yes the good old days lol

[AlwaysFSX]

3 hours ago, MageTank said:

If I can't use my "4k gaming laptop" to game at 4k, then I wouldn't be satisfied.

That seems like fair enough reasoning though. I still don't understand the point of having these super thin laptops packed with powerful hardware either. We don't have the technology to run the hardware at its stock configuration, so why bother thermally constraining it just for an e-peen title no one cares about. As you said, I'd rather a mobile 1060 and 1080p that gives me better thermals and battery life while being able to use the hardware at its limits.

 

I'd say give it 5 years before we have thin laptops that can game at 4k without any serious problems but by then we'd be having higher resolution displays and be having the same pointless decisions made for laptop specs.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, XenosTech said:

Ah I remember my first ROG laptop.... Gamed on it like it my was desktop and gave myself a heat rash on my thighs. Yes the good old days lol

Did the exact same thing with an HP DV7 2185DX. Core2Quad with a broken thermal sensor, and an ATI 4650. Pretty sure that thing didn't shut off at thermal junction temps, and burned my leg at 120C, lol.

[XenosTech]

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

Did the exact same thing with an HP DV7 2185DX. Core2Quad with a broken thermal sensor, and an ATI 4650. Pretty sure that thing didn't shut off at thermal junction temps, and burned my leg at 120C, lol.

Damn... Gamed for 6 hours straight with mine at 100c from start to finish... I can't even remember the model I had, just know it was win7 with a 4gb card

[MageTank]

Just now, XenosTech said:

Damn... Gamed for 6 hours straight with mine at 100c from start to finish... I can't even remember the model I had, just know it was win7 with a 4gb card

I only remember the exact name of mine, because I had to replace the fan in it 3 times. The bearings on it were awful, and would end up not spinning at random moments. I eventually got tired of it, and gave it to a friend of mine who modded it into a desktop. Honestly, it's performance was pretty great. Didn't feel much slower than my desktop 9800GT, and was able to play any MMO we threw at it. 

[malon]

I honestly don't care to much about thickness of a laptop since i would cary it in a bag or original box with a pletra of periferals and portable external ssd drive and usb's, its cool though that they can make it that thin aslong batterylife doesnt' suffer from it and the cooling isn't going to be awfully noisy under full load

[XenosTech]

8 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I only remember the exact name of mine, because I had to replace the fan in it 3 times. The bearings on it were awful, and would end up not spinning at random moments. I eventually got tired of it, and gave it to a friend of mine who modded it into a desktop. Honestly, it's performance was pretty great. Didn't feel much slower than my desktop 9800GT, and was able to play any MMO we threw at it. 

I got mine for school which was over kill for programming but I played a ton of games during and between classes.

[Zodiark1593]

12 hours ago, Mr.Meerkat said:

Then there's me, 1080p 24 inches and no AA ever...considering that I can't see the difference between ultra and medium in most games, AA is even more pointless in my eyes  

Anti-aliasing Anonymous (AAA), for those addicted to obscene levels of AA, and driving up the cost of their gaming habit several times over. 

 

I don’t mind the 4K display myself. Gaming aside, many productivity tasks benefit from a higher resolution display, some of said tasks can even utilize the GPU (Blender comes to mind, for mobile 3D artists).

 

Most laptops with a decent dGPU don't tend game long on the battery, so I'm not certain the argument of needing to be connected to a wall would hold more merit than the usual "gaming vs ordinary laptop". A 90 watt battery certainly wouldn't hold a 1060 and a quad core cpu for any longer than an hour, most likely less (let alone a 1080).

 

Ultimately, this is a desktop replacement computer made lighter. Would make a good portable workstation actually. The wild card here will be the effectiveness of the cooling. 

[MageTank]

17 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Anti-aliasing Anonymous (AAA), for those addicted to obscene levels of AA, and driving up the cost of their gaming habit several times over. 

 

I don’t mind the 4K display myself. Gaming aside, many productivity tasks benefit from a higher resolution display, some of said tasks can even utilize the GPU (Blender comes to mind, for mobile 3D artists).

 

Most laptops with a decent dGPU don't tend game long on the battery, so I'm not certain the argument of needing to be connected to a wall would hold more merit than the usual "gaming vs ordinary laptop". A 90 watt battery certainly wouldn't hold a 1060 and a quad core cpu for any longer than an hour, most likely less (let alone a 1080).

 

Ultimately, this is a desktop replacement computer made lighter. Would make a good portable workstation actually. The wild card here will be the effectiveness of the cooling. 

The Maxwell based Aero 14 was capable of gaming for 3 hours with a GTX 970m and a 1440p display. Knock that down to 1080p, factor in Pascal's slight efficiency gains (the mobile 1060 also a lower TDP by about 25w while being more powerful) and Kaby Lake's more efficient Turbo Boost features, one could make the assumption that battery life on that exact same 94w battery would be similar, if not better. 

 

I can't speak for everyone, but my brothers and I all agree, battery life is an important factor when buying laptops, even those labeled "gaming" laptops. While I don't expect to do several hours of gaming without having to charge the battery, it would be nice to play for an hour or two without immediately having to scramble for a charger. 

 

As for the last part, I agree entirely. The cooling is by far the most questionable aspect of this laptop, especially if ASUS honestly believes they can cram a GTX 1080 in this thing. If they do, expect 1 of 2 options. 

1. It's an extremely cutdown GTX 1080 (nerfed ram/memory bandwidth and reduced clock speeds)

2. It throttles hard, below that of even a GTX 1070/1060. 

 

I can't tell from the image, and maybe you can give your thoughts on it, but the top portion above the keyboard looks like a weaved mesh. I can't tell if they are planning to intake from the bottom, and exhaust out the top, or vice versa. Either way, it's bad. The sides/rear won't be thick enough to serve as proper exhaust ports due to how constrained the airflow will be, and if you go the aforementioned route, you run in to two scenarios. Either you intake from the bottom, and risk starving the components when the device is used on a lap while dumping the hot air on to the screen (potentially warping the bezel, or causing sweaty hands) or you intake from the top, and push out the bottom (which, I need not remind you the sweat that is produced in that area if used on a lap). 

 

All in all, this laptop leaves me conflicted. It's choice of hardware isn't bad by themselves, as they are all nice (GTX 1080, 4k G-Sync panel, legitimate quad core i7, etc) but trying to shove all of that into this thin chassis is just going to be a nightmare. I'd rather the device be slightly thicker, and perform without throttling, or settle with less thermally demanding components and a better experience overall. They can totally prove me wrong, and if they do, I'll be excited, but I just can't imagine them doing so.

[Zodiark1593]

12 minutes ago, MageTank said:

 

Vents or intakes may also be used on the sides as well. Taking in air from the top and porting it out the sides or back rather than the bottom seems the most logical solution, and allows plenty of air as the top of the laptop is unrestricted. I haven't seen many pictures of the thing myself (limited data plan, images off, etc), so I can't say for certain.

 

Throttling as a cooling (rather than a fail-safe) means isn't unprecedented however, as Apple has so clearly demonstrated via their passively cooled MacBook. 

[themctipers]

>laptop

kek

[MageTank]

Just now, Zodiark1593 said:

Vents or intakes may also be used on the sides as well. Taking in air from the top and porting it out the sides or back rather than the bottom seems the most logical solution, and allows plenty of air as the top of the laptop is unrestricted. I haven't seen many pictures of the thing myself (limited data plan, images off, etc), so I can't say for certain.

 

Throttling as a cooling (rather than a fail-safe) means isn't unprecedented however, as Apple has so clearly demonstrated via their passively cooled MacBook. 

I agree, but you cannot use the sides or rear of the laptop for intake on a laptop this thin, that was exactly my point in that post above. 

 

As thin as this device is, you will be lucky if the thin fans can even move the hot air, let alone actually intake/exhaust through any obstructions. The fans on the XPS13 barely pushes any air out of them. Reminds me of one of those handheld battery powered fans you buy at the dollar store, lol. 

[Bouzoo]

26 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I can't speak for everyone, but my brothers and I all agree, battery life is an important factor when buying laptops, even those labeled "gaming" laptops. While I don't expect to do several hours of gaming without having to charge the battery, it would be nice to play for an hour or two without immediately having to scramble for a charger. 

I have to say I never understood gaming without a charger and that is because of the stuttering. No matter what power plan you try to use or what setting you try to force to make it work like with a charger, it's not happening. You can try and use GFE or lower the game settings yourself, but for a game to work like it would work on a charger is most of the times just not worth it, due to worse experience overall. And in the meantime you might've just plugged in the charger. 

[MageTank]

3 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

I have to say I never understood gaming without a charger and that is because of the stuttering. No matter what power plan you try to use or what setting you try to force to make it work like with a charger, it's not happening. You can try and use GFE or lower the game settings yourself, but for a game to work like it would work on a charger is most of the times just not worth it, due to worse experience overall. And in the meantime you might've just plugged in the charger. 

I'd rather not... lol.

 

I haven't really had any problems with my laptops in that regard, but I don't exactly play demanding AAA titles on the go either. Mainly MMO's and fighting games (Xenoverse, Street Fighter, etc). I'll likely be buying a Kaby/Pascal Laptop soon (Or Zen/Vega laptop if they come out soon enough) so I'll gladly test them once I get my hands on one. Sadly, my standards are impossibly high after working on so many poorly designed laptops. My perfect laptop has been described as "13 inch, 720p display with a 3ghz-ish quadcore and Iris 580 graphics and any SSD". If I can find a laptop that can hit that performance target, with excellent battery life (without absurdly high thermals) i'll be satisfied.

[Zodiark1593]

18 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I agree, but you cannot use the sides or rear of the laptop for intake on a laptop this thin, that was exactly my point in that post above. 

 

As thin as this device is, you will be lucky if the thin fans can even move the hot air, let alone actually intake/exhaust through any obstructions. The fans on the XPS13 barely pushes any air out of them. Reminds me of one of those handheld battery powered fans you buy at the dollar store, lol. 

You'd be quite surprised how powerful tiny motors can be, though you'd sacrifice grievously in noise in exchange. Pushing a couple watts through a small, high kv (rpm/volt) brushless motor can yield the output of a small desk fan.

 

For a tiny quadcopter I had, the motors were about 10,000 kv, meaning at full speed, they were turning about 40,000 rpm on a Li-Po battery. They sounded like an extraordinarily loud mosquito though, but all four combined would give a large desk fan a run for it's money. 

 

My point, if an OEM wants to put in a more powerful fan, they can do so at any time, minding the acoustic consequences. 

 

One other aspect though. I remember reading that it is more efficient to have a wider, slower architecture than it is to have a smaller, faster clocked one. This makes me wonder if the 1080 would match or exceed the performance of the 1060 at matching or lower power consumption. There is a limit somewhere, but if it holds true here, opting for a slower clocked, larger chip may yield a sizeable improvement over the 1060 for the same power consumption, with the primary tradeoff being one of expense. 

[Bouzoo]

40 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I'd rather not... lol.

 

I haven't really had any problems with my laptops in that regard, but I don't exactly play demanding AAA titles on the go either. Mainly MMO's and fighting games (Xenoverse, Street Fighter, etc). I'll likely be buying a Kaby/Pascal Laptop soon (Or Zen/Vega laptop if they come out soon enough) so I'll gladly test them once I get my hands on one. Sadly, my standards are impossibly high after working on so many poorly designed laptops. My perfect laptop has been described as "13 inch, 720p display with a 3ghz-ish quadcore and Iris 580 graphics and any SSD". If I can find a laptop that can hit that performance target, with excellent battery life (without absurdly high thermals) i'll be satisfied.

It was a general idea, don't judge me.

 

Eh, a 580 should be a bit worse than my 850m, which should be more fine for 720p even for AAA games (maybe not on battery), but gaming on a 13'' leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know I know, it's not mainly a gaming device, but it still does, that's coming from a person who even gamed on 11.6". I really hope I'll be selling both my laptop and pc this year and buy something proper, like a Schenker/XMG with 2070 and 7700K or something similar this year (I need a portable powerhouse and hope they will put it in something that is like their current 2.5kg with 1070 and 6700HQ), but we'll see. Iirc, aren't all 13" ultrabooks that sport ULV models? Can't remember last time I saw a QC <14". Yeah Vega/Zen laptop, I wouldn't hold my breath.