Asus to reveal thinnest GTX1080 laptop?

[dizmo]

15 hours ago, MageTank said:

But why carry an external laptop cooler, if you can just make the device thicker, and have it built in? Do you not see how silly it is to design something for the sake of thinness, only to thicken it up with an external cooler anyways?

I don't think that really helps keep your lap cool. I've used my friends Alienware. The thing is huge. Yet, the lap still gets hot. The only thing that stops it is a simple external cooler. It's more to raise it off the legs, than to cool the unit. They're extremely light, and cheap.

15 hours ago, MageTank said:

 

Yes, a GTX 1080 for desktops IS capable of playing 4k titles with tweaked settings, but that's exactly my point. This isn't a desktop 1080. At best, it's a mobile 1080, and at worst, it's a throttled mobile 1080. We already saw the last guy mention his 75w 960m hitting 80C in another ASUS thin laptop. Do you honestly think a 165w GPU will fare better under similar thermal constraints? It will be a shadow of it's former self in that situation.

It's great for us to be armchair engineers, but let's just wait and see what they've done. Sure, it'll probably throttle. But how much is the question. Maybe they have some new cooling technique. Nothing's out of the realm of possibility. I'm always shocked at how many people on here refuse to believe there can be advances in "x" field.

15 hours ago, MageTank said:

 

Lower tier in what regard? Component selection? Or user experience? Component selection isn't the be all, end all when speaking of laptop tiers. Plenty of features can make a laptop premium tier, without being the absolute best of the best in terms of raw performance. A GTX 1060 with a nice quality 1080p/1440p G-Sync panel and premium build quality will still quality as a premium laptop. A GTX 1080 that throttles to unplayable framerates under load, on a panel that requires people to run a less than native resolution, with heat that is intolerable by most, isn't premium. It's a literal hot mess.

Neither. Cost, obviously. You're right, it's not, and different components affect different users. That's why cost is generally used when determining tier. It scales perfectly.

 

15 hours ago, MageTank said:

 

I am not trying to tell people their purchasing decisions are bad. I am only trying to warn people of the inevitable if they do buy in to a design like this. If you won't take my word for it, please, look into it for yourself. Look at the Cleveo P870, a very fair thermally designed laptop:

 

 

Now look at what happens to that GTX 1080 under load: http://www.anandtech.com/show/10795/the-clevo-p870dm2-mythlogic-phobos-8716-laptop-review-dtr-with-gtx-1080/7

 

Let me remind you, this is on a 1.86 inch thick laptop with 3 rear exhaust fans. The laptop you are looking at in the OP of this thread, is 1/3rd the thickness, and likely will NOT have the same amount of fans (or the luxury of rear exhaust for that matter, due to how thin it is). 

That laptop is SLI though, is it not? So it'd need half the cooling, at the very least.

Curious, you keep quoting 165w, yet the mobile version of the 1080 is 150w. Which is the same as the 980m. Why do you assume that it will be SO much worse than the 980m?

Again, you're making assumptions about the build.

15 hours ago, MageTank said:

 

Take this information into consideration, then come back and tell me a GTX 1080 will work in that thin chassis. Tell me of a cooling solution that can outperform Clevo's while being 1/3rd the thickness. I certainly do not know of one.

You're right, we don't know of one. There might be one out there, or they may have developed one.

Or maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Mr.Meerkat]

7 hours ago, MageTank said:

I can't tell from the image, and maybe you can give your thoughts on it, but the top portion above the keyboard looks like a weaved mesh. I can't tell if they are planning to intake from the bottom, and exhaust out the top, or vice versa.

So like what MSI's GS series has employed for their cooling? Well on a 'larger' scale...

Do I smell a copy cat? /jk

[MageTank]

7 hours ago, dizmo said:

It's great for us to be armchair engineers, but let's just wait and see what they've done. Sure, it'll probably throttle. But how much is the question. Maybe they have some new cooling technique. Nothing's out of the realm of possibility. I'm always shocked at how many people on here refuse to believe there can be advances in "x" field.

I am not being an armchair engineer. I am speaking from personal experience of repairing many poorly designed laptops that died before their time. Not only that, but ASUS already has an ultra-thin gaming lineup that barely supported mid-grade components while still reaching insane heat. It's not outside of the realm of possibilities to assume this will be worse, given the fact that the choice of components in this laptop are more than twice the TDP of the last. I specialize in ITX systems, and I keep my eyes and ears open for advancements in cooling techniques, as I already use a 45mm vapor chamber on a delidded 6700k. I am even in the process of having a custom heatsink fabricated for my 4L ITX build.

 

7 hours ago, dizmo said:

Neither. Cost, obviously. You're right, it's not, and different components affect different users. That's why cost is generally used when determining tier. It scales perfectly.

This is simply not true. Cost does NOT equate to high or low tier. You can pay more and get less, simply because brand premiums. If a Macbook and PC laptop have the exact same selection of components, but the Macbook costs $1000 more, is it a higher tier/quality item? I'd certainly beg to differ. At the end of the day, it's not the cost, or individual performance/quality of each material that makes an item premium or high-tier. It's the sum of their parts, working in unison that provides the best experience that determines the overall quality/tier of an item. 

 

7 hours ago, dizmo said:

That laptop is SLI though, is it not? So it'd need half the cooling, at the very least.

Curious, you keep quoting 165w, yet the mobile version of the 1080 is 150w. Which is the same as the 980m. Why do you assume that it will be SO much worse than the 980m?

Again, you're making assumptions about the build.

No, that Clevo laptop isn't SLI. It does have 2 MXM slots, but only one is occupied. It says so in the review. I quote 165w because Nvidia themselves officially stated that the GTX 1080 (notebook) has "roughly the same TDP as the GTX 980" which was 165w. There are also a few reviewers that mention similar numbers, but they do vary as Nvidia keeps their mobile SKU's under lock and key, due to how they allow the individual manufacturers to customize the memory configurations and clock speeds. This will undoubtedly impact TDP.

Notice the "~", it's not concrete. If they do somehow squeeze a GTX 1080 in this thing, it's gonna have to be cutdown severely. Though, that just begs the question, if you are going to cut it down, why not just go with a 1070 or 1060 in the first place?

 

8 hours ago, dizmo said:

You're right, we don't know of one. There might be one out there, or they may have developed one.

Or maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see.

"The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence"- Samuel L. Jackson

[dizmo]

On 2017-01-04 at 11:06 AM, MageTank said:

-snip-

 

"The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence"- Samuel L. Jackson

There can always be improvements though. Asus is especially known for this, generally their first try is shit, their second try a little better, and by the third or fourth generation they've absolutely nailed it. They do this quite often.

 

Erm, who was talking about Macs? I was talking about Asus product lines. And, yes, price dictates tier level when you're talking about one companies product stack for a certain category. Or are you saying that they have laptops with 1070s that are cheaper than laptops with 1060s?

 

Ah, I couldn't find an Nvidia direct quote for TDP, just what PCPer released.

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/NVIDIA-Pascal-Mobile-GTX-1080-1070-and-1060-Enter-Gaming-Notebooks

 

 

 

 

 

[MageTank]

3 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Erm, who was talking about Macs? I was talking about Asus product lines. And, yes, price dictates tier level when you're talking about one companies product stack for a certain category. Or are you saying that they have laptops with 1070s that are cheaper than laptops with 1060s?

I didn't see a mention of ASUS when you mentioned tiers, which is why I assumed we were speaking in the context of all laptops in general. I never stated that you see 1070's cheaper than 1060's, but you do see lower end hardware priced higher than higher tier hardware. Hence my "pay more, get less" analogy. Even using ASUS as an example:

 

$1700 GTX 960m and 6700HQ

http://store.asus.com/us/item/201604AM060000092/A17602-ASUS+ZENBOOK+Pro+UX501VW-XS74T+Intel+i7+16GB+512GB+SSD+GTX+960M+Touchscreen+Windows+10+Pro+Laptop

 

$1700 GTX 1070 and 6700HQ

http://store.asus.com/us/item/201608AM120000028/A47070-ASUS+ROG+GL502VS-DB71+15.6

 

Which is the more premium laptop? Both are exactly the same prices, but how do we conclude which one is better? The point is, we can't. At the end of the day, price isn't the be all, end all when it comes to what we consider high or low tier. To some, a GTX 960m is considered medium-low, while others see the 1070 as medium/high end. Some prefer having a touchscreen, while others would gladly trade that touchscreen off for G-Sync on the 1070 laptop. While both products are priced the same, their quality (which is entirely subjective) is vastly different when you ask people. I personally would never pay $1700 for a laptop with a GTX 960m in it, but $1700 for a GTX 1070 and G-Sync? That's a little more comforting. 

 

22 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Ah, I couldn't find an Nvidia direct quote for TDP, just what PCPer released.

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/NVIDIA-Pascal-Mobile-GTX-1080-1070-and-1060-Enter-Gaming-Notebooks

 

That's because Nvidia has yet to actually give official metrics on the notebook versions TDP. We still don't have a confirmation on what the maxwell notebook SKU's TDP's are. We are only able to make guesses based on similar power draw, similar cooling solutions using different MXM's, and their performance relative to their desktop counterparts. It's never going to be an exact estimate, but from what I can see, we've gotten close. 

[dizmo]

28 minutes ago, MageTank said:

-snip-

I didn't think I had to, I assumed you'd keep it in line with the brand

Comparing an ultra portable to a gaming laptop? Doesn't seem quite fair. Choose out of the same category, and I'd bet the pricing would hold true. Also, the ultra portable has a 4k touch screen, the SSD is twice the size, 50% larger battery...the value is definitely there. The store might not be the best place to compare, as they often have old stock mixed in. If you went to current product line, in the same category, I'd almost guarantee my statement holds true.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, dizmo said:

I didn't think I had to, I assumed you'd keep it in line with the brand

Comparing an ultra portable to a gaming laptop? Doesn't seem quite fair. Choose out of the same category, and I'd bet the pricing would hold true. Also, the ultra portable has a 4k touch screen, the SSD is twice the size, 50% larger battery...the value is definitely there. The store might not be the best place to compare, as they often have old stock mixed in. If you went to current product line, in the same category, I'd almost guarantee my statement holds true.

That still depends though. You can find laptops with higher raw horsepower within the same product stack/category, but skimp out on features elsewhere. You can find a 1070 laptop that is cheaper than a 1060 + G-Sync laptop, but the 1060 + G-Sync will likely offer the better experience, even with technically inferior "gaming hardware". Price just isn't enough to determine quality. There are still premiums involved that go beyond the general value of something. You can see the 960m ROG laptops, and compare them to the ultra portable 960m laptops (that still exist on the store) that have very similar configurations (same GPU/CPU, similar storage configurations, etc) with the biggest difference being size/weight. Is the smaller device for more money, automatically the higher quality item, just because it costs more?

 

To me, quality doesn't come from price. It comes from the engineering of the device (durability, longevity, performance) and the biggest being the experience of it. My brother spent $1100 on his refurbished XPS 13, just because it had a 3800x1600 screen. That laptop normally retails at $2000+. I've taken that thing apart, and trust me, it's not "quality" by any means. I know I am changing the brand again, but bare with me. I've owned several different HP laptops over the past few generations, all of which blow the build quality and overall experience of this laptop out of the water. This thing is only expensive, because if the engineering that went into making it small and portable, NOT because it performed well and was durable. It overheats, it feels like it could be ripped in half by a toddler, and has the most awful coil whine you could ever imagine. Yet you can go pick up an Inspiron 15 with better cooling, nice IPS panel at a usable resolution, and have 4-5x the hardware in a chassis that won't flex as easily, for half the cost. 

 

My point is, price can't be seen as the main representation of quality. Even when comparing similar products from the same manufacturer. When marketing buzzwords get involved, they often sell people nonsense for more money just because they can.

 

I've been talking about this laptop with my hardware group on Telegram, and the vast majority believe it's going to go up in smoke. However, a few of the engineers I respect seem to have some hope for it, so I'll wait until it's released to see what's done with it. They did bring up another point that might irk me, which is the probability of soldered ram (hard to fit so-dimm slots on something this thin and in dire need of space for battery/cooling) which only adds another non-user serviceable point of failure. Hopefully that's not the case either.