Why Folding On School Computers Isn't Such A Ridiculous Idea

[FAQBytes]

(NOTE- Using Light or Medium settings)
(NOTE- I am NOT advocating you go out and put F@H on school computers. This can have major consequences. This is for the systemic adoption of schools doing this as regulated by the state. [Hopefully  Berkeley and Stanford will develop an education version which is locked at light settings for school computers])

Alright, so I have been seeing a lot on the forum here about how "Power is such an issue!"

Fortunately for you all, this simply isn't true.

How?

Well, the Government has done something (In the US anyway) that is actually good for getting folding into schools.

While doing research for my bill for Student Congress, I stumbled across a few interesting facts.

For one, schools often negotiate with the power companies to pay the same price, regardless of usage. The price stays the same (less the adjustments for inflation).

In addition to this, the government subsidizes these companies to ensure that everyone gets the power they want. Not getting too far into the economics, without these regulations, many of the homes around you wouldn't have power, and the power would be much more expensive without the Gov't stepping their foot into the door.

So, with this said, the bills of schools won't go up for power. They're already paying for it. (Also, these can heat the school in the winter. )

Let's talk about a few of the other issues brought up.



Damage to Computer Hardware

Well, not really. The main thing that goes out on computers in schools are the hard drives. RAM, CPU, and motherboard failures are quite rare. Folding does not put much stress on Hard drives, so any increased failure rate is caused by the computer being on, not by the action of Folding itself. In addition, schools are partnered with companies like HP, Dell, Acer, etc. These computers are sold to the county at an extremely low price, then the government gives them tax breaks. These hard drives are purchased for nearly nothing.

Any decay caused to the CPU, RAM, PSU, and motherboard are essentially negligible. By the time that they are decayed 1 year shorter than their average lifespan, they will essentially be obsolete. Overclocking with average usage will be far more detrimental than folding.

 

Alright, to address the above, since some don't believe me, here is a quote from someone in the field:

 

 

Usage of a CPU does result in wear at the atomic/electronic level.

The actual lifespan of the silicon transistors of a consumer CPU is typically in the range of 20-30 years before there is a failure, not 3-4years. It is asssumed by then that the item would be obsolete.

How does Intel/AMD know if there's no way to test a chip for 30years? It is tested under load under higher than normal conditions (heat voltage, clock) and the variables and failure data are then extrapolated and calculated backwards for typical use.

Of course there are other failure points such as the chip packaging wires and things of that nature, but low decades would be a fair assumption.

3-4 years is more of the practical obsolescence of the product due to Moore's law and all that.

Source: Masters degree in EE, and learned in a course on chip failure design.

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2567579/cpus-lifespan.html

If there are any more concerns, I'll be happy to address them.
I could be wrong about states other than Florida, but according to my research on my county and the others in the state of Florida, this is what happens.

[Madone6]

Alright, so I have been seeing a lot on the forum here about how "Power is such an issue!" 

 

Fortunately for you all, this simply isn't true. 

 

How? 

 

Well, the Government has done something (In the US anyway) that is actually good for getting folding into schools. 

 

While doing research for my bill for Student Congress, I stumbled across a few interesting facts.

 

For one, schools often negotiate with the power companies to pay the same price, regardless of usage. The price stays the same (less the adjustments for inflation). 

 

In addition to this, the government subsidizes these companies to ensure that everyone gets the power they want. Not getting too far into the economics, without these regulations, many of the homes around you wouldn't have power, and the power would be much more expensive without the Gov't stepping their foot into the door. 

 

So, with this said, the bills of schools won't go up for power. They're already paying for it. (Also, these can heat the school in the winter.   )

 

Let's talk about a few of the other issues brought up.

 

 

 

Damage to Computer Hardware

 

Well, not really. The main thing that goes out on computers in schools are the hard drives. RAM, CPU, and  motherboard failures are quite rare. Folding does not put much stress on Hard drives, so any increased failure rate is caused by the computer being on, not by the action of Folding itself. In addition, schools are partnered with companies like HP, Dell, Acer, etc. These computers are sold to the county at an extremely low price, then the government gives them tax breaks. These hard drives are purchased for nearly nothing. 

 

Any decay caused to the CPU, RAM, PSU, and motherboard are essentially negligible. By the time that they are decayed 1 year shorter than their average lifespan, they will essentially be obsolete. Overclocking with average usage will be far more detrimental than folding. 

 

 

If there are any more concerns, I'll be happy to address them. 

I could be wrong about states other than Florida, but according to my research on my county and the others in the state of Florida, this is what happens. 

Sounds pretty cool

[vanished]

If that is how it works everywhere, it would make total sense to do this - schools around the world have a massive amount of potential processing power that for most of the day is just sitting idle.  As someone here calculated, a typical school could get hundreds of millions of points in a week!

[Aytex]

i cant imagine folding on my i3 elitebook

[Madone6]

i cant imagine folding on my i3 elitebook

oh boy

[FAQBytes]

If that is how it works everywhere, it would make total sense to do this - schools around the world have a massive amount of potential processing power that for most of the day is just sitting idle.  As someone here calculated, a typical school could get hundreds of millions of points in a week!

I calculated the average amount of processing power to 6 times that of what is currently done.

 

-Crunching Numbers-

[Marinatall_Ironside]

Alright, so I have been seeing a lot on the forum here about how "Power is such an issue!" 

 

Fortunately for you all, this simply isn't true. 

 

How? 

 

Well, the Government has done something (In the US anyway) that is actually good for getting folding into schools. 

 

While doing research for my bill for Student Congress, I stumbled across a few interesting facts.

 

For one, schools often negotiate with the power companies to pay the same price, regardless of usage. The price stays the same (less the adjustments for inflation). 

 

In addition to this, the government subsidizes these companies to ensure that everyone gets the power they want. Not getting too far into the economics, without these regulations, many of the homes around you wouldn't have power, and the power would be much more expensive without the Gov't stepping their foot into the door. 

 

So, with this said, the bills of schools won't go up for power. They're already paying for it. (Also, these can heat the school in the winter.   )

 

Let's talk about a few of the other issues brought up.

 

 

 

Damage to Computer Hardware

 

Well, not really. The main thing that goes out on computers in schools are the hard drives. RAM, CPU, and  motherboard failures are quite rare. Folding does not put much stress on Hard drives, so any increased failure rate is caused by the computer being on, not by the action of Folding itself. In addition, schools are partnered with companies like HP, Dell, Acer, etc. These computers are sold to the county at an extremely low price, then the government gives them tax breaks. These hard drives are purchased for nearly nothing. 

 

Any decay caused to the CPU, RAM, PSU, and motherboard are essentially negligible. By the time that they are decayed 1 year shorter than their average lifespan, they will essentially be obsolete. Overclocking with average usage will be far more detrimental than folding. 

 

 

If there are any more concerns, I'll be happy to address them. 

I could be wrong about states other than Florida, but according to my research on my county and the others in the state of Florida, this is what happens. 

Actually not a bad idea. Betcha if schools did that, they would go through the roof with the hordes of computers that spend most of their time idling, and then top the charts.

[failblox]

Sounds like a good idea, but I think you'd still have trouble running that past the administration in your school.

 

One downside of this that I can think of is that the classrooms next to computer labs might be distracted by the jet engine in the next room.

[Enderman]

Folding makes a CPU and GPU run at 100%

School computers use stock cooling solutions and do not get regularly cleaned of dust

Running those computers at 100% 24/7 is not only going to shorten the lifespan by MUCH more than 1 year, it is also a fire hazard

[vanished]

A potential problem I see is that even if that's how power is paid for now, that may change if enough school start suddenly doubling their power consumption

[FAQBytes]

If that is how it works everywhere, it would make total sense to do this - schools around the world have a massive amount of potential processing power that for most of the day is just sitting idle.  As someone here calculated, a typical school could get hundreds of millions of points in a week!

Alright, using my numbers, I calculate that these can do up to 6 billion points per day. Assuming they only run at 50%, that's still 3 billion points per day.

[FAQBytes]

Folding makes a CPU and GPU run at 100%

School computers use stock cooling solutions and do not get regularly cleaned of dust

Running those computers at 100% 24/7 is not only going to shorten the lifespan by MUCH more than 1 year, it is also a fire hazard

You don't have to fold at maximum. Light or medium would still make a huge difference. I wouldn't want them to run at 100%. If they're a fire hazard folding, then they are regardless folding or not.

[byalexandr]

I'm totally going to try at my school, at least with as many PCs as I can.

[FAQBytes]

A potential problem I see is that even if that's how power is paid for now, that may change if enough school start suddenly doubling their power consumption

Like I said above, the government already pays for it. The government subsidizes the power companies regardless, so this is going to be minor in the grand scheme of everything the power company provides for.

[Enderman]

You don't have to fold at maximum. Light or medium would still make a huge difference. I wouldn't want them to run at 100%. If they're a fire hazard folding, then they are regardless folding or not.

no...

do you understand how heat works?

something at 100C is a fire hazard, something at 40C is not

 

if youre going to run them at light or medium then it should be fine, they will probably stay cool enough

[FAQBytes]

Well here's the thing. I'm 100% for this idea, however if the power company sees that they're suddenly using 50 - 75% more power than they otherwise would, that same flat rate is Gonna be higher because the utilities company isn't gonna like getting ripped off, and what're you gonna do, switch power companies?

Oh and at least in my district, the school doesn't have a flat rate. For a while they were trying to get the usage to an absolute minimum, going around to kids with cell phone chargers plugged in to unplug them. Needless to say, that didn't last long.

Hmm, thanks for the info. 

 

Also, look at this, even if that does happen, (Which is a high estimate), it's still going to be a very small increase when compared to everything that the power company provides for.

[Philcat101]

I would like to set up many folding clients that all fold for the LTT team! >

[FAQBytes]

no...

do you understand how heat works?

something at 100C is a fire hazard, something at 40C is not

 

if youre going to run them at light or medium then it should be fine, they will probably stay cool enough

The point I was making is that these computers do have instances where they perform at 100% for long enough to reach it's maximum temp that it will reach. If it is such an issue, then computers would constantly be going up in flames considering how many there are out there. There is 1 computer per 10 students on average. That's over 8,000,000 computers. If it was such a hazard, there would be many more computer fires than there are. Simple statistics. 

 

I do know what you were trying to get at, and yes I do know how heat works. Increasing the amount of time increases the probability. But nothing inside computers combust at 100C. The one worry is wires overheating and the casing catching fire, which would not happen at 100C. 

[vanished]

You don't have to fold at maximum. Light or medium would still make a huge difference. I wouldn't want them to run at 100%. If they're a fire hazard folding, then they are regardless folding or not.

 

no...

do you understand how heat works?

something at 100C is a fire hazard, something at 40C is not

 

if youre going to run them at light or medium then it should be fine, they will probably stay cool enough

 

Maybe I'm wrong but that was not my understanding of how light/medium/high works; it seemed to me that (if I recall correctly) light was just CPU folding, while both medium and high enable GPU folding as well and in any of the three settings, whatever was getting used was pushed pretty much to 100%.  I would like a way to legitimately throttle usage as opposed to it just being on or off, but in the mean time I set it to just run while idle, and that's probably what everyone should do

[itsmyjobtoknow]

You say machines will be obsolete by the time they declay one year, but there are some campus (mine being one of them) that doesn't get rid of their old machines unless they have to. Some of the labs that aren't using CPU heavy application such as Auto-CAD, are still rocking Core 2 Duos. Heck there is still a Pentium 4 somewhere around Campus. 

 

As an employee of my Office of Technology....it is also considered abuse of hardware (at least in my opinion). 

 

And not everyone shares the same opinion about folding as you and the rest of LTT does. To some, folding may be the most pointless thing ever.

[FAQBytes]

Maybe I'm wrong but that was not my understanding of how light/medium/high works; it seemed to me that (if I recall correctly) light was just CPU folding, while both medium and high enable GPU folding as well and in any of the three settings, whatever was getting used was pushed pretty much to 100%. I would like a way to legitimately throttle usage as opposed to it just being on or off, but in the mean time I set it to just run while idle, and that's probably what everyone should do

https://folding.stanford.edu/home/faq/faq-v7-introduction/

[vanished]

https://folding.stanford.edu/home/faq/faq-v7-introduction/

ah, ok.  Well in my opinion they should have a slider for both CPU and GPU separately, and I would set them to 100%* and 90% respectively (and have it auto-pause when I launch a game).

 

* 100% of the "free time" - I'm not counting the core that has to be dedicated regardless

[Enderman]

The point I was making is that these computers do have instances where they perform at 100% for long enough to reach it's maximum temp that it will reach. If it is such an issue, then computers would constantly be going up in flames considering how many there are out there. There is 1 computer per 10 students on average. That's over 8,000,000 computers. If it was such a hazard, there would be many more computer fires than there are. Simple statistics. 

 

I do know what you were trying to get at, and yes I do know how heat works. Increasing the amount of time increases the probability. But nothing inside computers combust at 100C. The one worry is wires overheating and the casing catching fire, which would not happen at 100C. 

just fyi, dust can catch on fire

i highly doubt anything you do at school uses those computers at 100%

 

unless running prime95 or other stress tests is part of your curriculum lol

[FAQBytes]

You say machines will be obsolete by the time they declay one year, but there are some campus (mine being one of them) that doesn't get rid of their old machines unless they have to. Some of the labs that aren't using CPU heavy application such as Auto-CAD, are still rocking Core 2 Duos. Heck there is still a Pentium 4 somewhere around Campus.

As an employee of my Office of Technology....it is also considered abuse of hardware (at least in my opinion).

And not everyone shares the same opinion about folding as you and the rest of LTT does. To some, folding may be the most pointless thing ever.

As a person who used to wonder if it was worth it, I completely see where you're coming from. Most of the computers at my school are core 2 duo e6600s.

On abuse of hardware, light (50%, no GPU) isn't too abusive according to physics. While you might hold different feelings toward the matter, these chips aren't overvolted. They're operating at or under rated voltage. The on 24/7 is still hard for me to stomach as it's still a bare motherboard sitting on a cardboard box. I don't view it as abusive, but like I said, I see where you're coming from.

The hardest part is in fact the proving of its worth. This isn't helped by the fact that we are still yet to have where the first large few batches of research studies assisted by this are to come out. These things take many years of effort and much longer for the experiments to go through, be tested, then peer reviewed and published. This is where looking at other, smaller DC projects is important. One BOINC project sorted through 6,000,000 different molecules to fight cancer and the scientists are now testing the 8 that "show great potential of being a true cure" for a specific type of cancer in adolescents. Once these are (hopefully) successful and then publicized, I think public opinion will change.

[FAQBytes]

ah, ok. Well in my opinion they should have a slider for both CPU and GPU separately, and I would set them to 100%* and 90% respectively (and have it auto-pause when I launch a game).

* 100% of the "free time" - I'm not counting the core that has to be dedicated regardless

I just down clock my r9 290x to 900/1150.