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AMD has officially deprecated Mantle

Mew
By Mew
in Tech News
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All I want is stackable Vram and cross company cards in the same PC doing the same task

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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English is hard :D

 

English is the most stupid language on the planet.  Who else has 26 letters several of which are redundant.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Anyone who was paying attention at the 2013 Hawaii launch knows that AMD weren't trying to compete with DirectX. They made it pretty clear from the start that Developers were begging for a true multi-threaded, low level API to work with - and AMD were the only ones that were willing to "take up the Mantle." Game developers got a head-start for dx12-like development, and those of us with AMD cards got an early taste of DX12/Vulkan performance. Good that they're letting it go gracefully.

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I really hope devs will go for vulkan and not dx12. Crossplatformness gives Linux guys like me hope.

Keep on dreamin' but if they do, cheers.

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What the taste of Mantle I was given was amazing. It is why I got an AMD card. :(

 

This disappoints me. Does it mean developers can't use it for their games, too?

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What the taste of Mantle I was given was amazing. It is why I got an AMD card. :(

 

This disappoints me. Does it mean developers can't use it for their games, too?

 

The final version of Mantle is out and everyone can use it if they want. They won't though, as Mantle evolved into OpenGL Vulkan, so expect the same (or better) performance there.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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You honestly think Microsoft weren't already developing DX12 to provide better multi-core support and hardware control? t's been on the cards since XBone was in development. It just makes sense if they can solidify their hold on gamers by consolidating costs for them and game developers for easier ports and better access to performance.

Well duh, it's entirely possible to create a new graphics API in the space of just a few months, right? /sarcasm

 

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Was a good project but it serves no further purpose, glad they are not committing further resources to it.

Can't wait for vulkan

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The final version of Mantle is out and everyone can use it if they want. They won't though, as Mantle evolved into OpenGL Vulkan, so expect the same (or better) performance there.

 

Oh! And my card will work with Vulkan? I was just supportive of Mantle because it worked with the 200 series cards, but if that is better than I don't have anything to be disappointed about. :)

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Oh! And my card will work with Vulkan? I was just supportive of Mantle because it worked with the 200 series cards, but if that is better than I don't have anything to be disappointed about. :)

 

Yes it will work with Vulkan and DirectX 12, so no worries there.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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Yes it will work with Vulkan and DirectX 12, so no worries there.

 

Sweet! Then thank god for Mantle leading them to Vulkan and DirectX 12. :)

|  The United Empire of Earth Wants You | The Stormborn (ongoing build; 90% done)  |  Skyrim Mods Recommendations  |  LTT Blue Forum Theme! | Learning Russian! Blog |
|"They got a war on drugs so the police can bother me.” ― Tupac Shakur  | "Half of writing history is hiding the truth" — Captain Malcolm Reynolds | "Museums are racist." — Michelle Obama | "Slap a word like "racist" or "nazi" on it and you'll have an army at your back." — MSM Logic | "A new command I give you: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another" — Jesus Christ | "I love the Union and the Constitution, but I would rather leave the Union with the Constitution than remain in the Union without it." — Jefferson Davis |

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Well it's really nice that Mantle did gave a kick for development of low level API as we know. Not sure about OpenGL Vulkan for time being but DX12 with W10 is hear soon :)

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I call b.s.

If you says so! :D

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R20 score MC: 3529cb | R20 score SC: 506cb

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Zen-II-X6-3600+ (Gaming PC)

R23 score MC: 9893pts | R23 score SC: 1248pts @4.2GHz

R23 score MC: 10151pts | R23 score SC: 1287pts @4.3GHz

R20 score MC: 3688cb | R20 score SC: 489cb

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Case: Medion Micro-ATX Case / Case Fan Front: SUNON MagLev PF70251VX-Q000-S99 70mm / Case Fan Rear: Fanner Tech(Shen Zhen)Co.,LTD. 80mm (Purple) / Controller: Sony Dualshock 4 Wireless (DS4Windows) / Cooler: AMD Near-silent 125w Thermal Solution / CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600, 6-cores, 12-threads, 4.2/4.2GHz, 35MB cache (T.S.M.C. 7nm FinFET) / Display: HP 24" L2445w (64Hz OC) 1920x1200 / GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 970 4GD5 OC "Afterburner" @1450MHz (T.S.M.C. 28nm) / GPU: ASUS Radeon RX 6600 XT DUAL OC RDNA2 32CUs @2607MHz (T.S.M.C. 7nm FinFET) / Keyboard: HP KB-0316 PS/2 (Nordic) / Motherboard: ASRock B450M Pro4, Socket-AM4 / Mouse: Razer Abyssus 2014 / PCI-E: ASRock USB 3.1/A+C (PCI Express x4) / PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2, 550W / RAM A2 & B2: DDR4-3600MHz CL16-18-8-19-37-1T "SK Hynix 8Gbit CJR" (2x16GB) / Operating System: Windows 10 Home / Sound 1: Zombee Z500 / Sound 2: Logitech Stereo Speakers S-150 / Storage 1 & 2: Samsung 850 EVO 500GB SSD / Storage 3: Western Digital My Passport 2.5" 2TB HDD / Storage 4: Western Digital Elements Desktop 2TB HDD / Storage 5: Kingston A2000 1TB M.2 NVME SSD / Wi-fi & Bluetooth: ASUS PCE-AC55BT Wireless Adapter (Intel)

Vishera-X8-9370 | R20 score MC: 1476cb

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Case: Cooler Master HAF XB Evo Black / Case Fan(s) Front: Noctua NF-A14 ULN 140mm Premium Fans / Case Fan(s) Rear: Corsair Air Series AF120 Quiet Edition (red) / Case Fan(s) Side: Noctua NF-A6x25 FLX 60mm Premium Fan / Case Fan VRM: SUNON MagLev KDE1209PTV3 92mm / Controller: Sony Dualshock 4 Wireless (DS4Windows) / Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo / CPU: AMD FX-8370 (Base: @4.4GHz | Turbo: @4.7GHz) Black Edition Eight-Core (Global Foundries 32nm) / Display: ASUS 24" LED VN247H (67Hz OC) 1920x1080p / GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 970 4GD5 OC "Afterburner" @1450MHz (T.S.M.C. 28nm) / GPU: Gigabyte Radeon RX Vega 56 Gaming OC @1501MHz (Samsung 14nm FinFET) / Keyboard: Logitech Desktop K120 (Nordic) / Motherboard: MSI 970 GAMING, Socket-AM3+ / Mouse: Razer Abyssus 2014 / PCI-E: ASRock USB 3.1/A+C (PCI Express x4) / PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2, 850W PSU / RAM 1, 2, 3 & 4: Corsair Vengeance DDR3-1866MHz CL8-10-10-28-37-2T (4x4GB) 16.38GB / Operating System 1: Windows 10 Home / Sound: Zombee Z300 / Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO 500GB SSD (x2) / Storage 2: Seagate® Barracuda 2TB HDD / Storage 3: Seagate® Desktop 2TB SSHD / Wi-fi: TP-Link TL-WN951N 11n Wireless Adapter

Godavari-X4-880K | R20 score MC: 810cb

Spoiler

Case: Medion Micro-ATX Case / Case Fan Front: SUNON MagLev PF70251VX-Q000-S99 70mm / Case Fan Rear: Fanner Tech(Shen Zhen)Co.,LTD. 80mm (Purple) / Controller: Sony Dualshock 4 Wireless (DS4Windows) / Cooler: AMD Near-silent 95w Thermal Solution / Cooler: AMD Near-silent 125w Thermal Solution / CPU: AMD Athlon X4 860K Black Edition Elite Quad-Core (T.S.M.C. 28nm) / CPU: AMD Athlon X4 880K Black Edition Elite Quad-Core (T.S.M.C. 28nm) / Display: HP 19" Flat Panel L1940 (75Hz) 1280x1024 / GPU: EVGA GeForce GTX 960 SuperSC 2GB (T.S.M.C. 28nm) / GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 970 4GD5 OC "Afterburner" @1450MHz (T.S.M.C. 28nm) / Keyboard: HP KB-0316 PS/2 (Nordic) / Motherboard: MSI A78M-E45 V2, Socket-FM2+ / Mouse: Razer Abyssus 2014 / PCI-E: ASRock USB 3.1/A+C (PCI Express x4) / PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2, 550W PSU / RAM 1, 2, 3 & 4: SK hynix DDR3-1866MHz CL9-10-11-27-40 (4x4GB) 16.38GB / Operating System 1: Ubuntu Gnome 16.04 LTS (Xenial Xerus) / Operating System 2: Windows 10 Home / Sound 1: Zombee Z500 / Sound 2: Logitech Stereo Speakers S-150 / Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO 500GB SSD (x2) / Storage 2: Western Digital My Passport 2.5" 2TB HDD / Storage 3: Western Digital Elements Desktop 2TB HDD / Wi-fi: TP-Link TL-WN851N 11n Wireless Adapter

Acer Aspire 7738G custom (changed CPU, GPU & Storage)
Spoiler

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo P8600, 2-cores, 2-threads, 2.4GHz, 3MB cache (Intel 45nm) / GPU: ATi Radeon HD 4570 515MB DDR2 (T.S.M.C. 55nm) / RAM: DDR2-1066MHz CL7-7-7-20-1T (2x2GB) / Operating System: Windows 10 Home / Storage: Crucial BX500 480GB 3D NAND SATA 2.5" SSD

Complete portable device SoC history:

Spoiler
Apple A4 - Apple iPod touch (4th generation)
Apple A5 - Apple iPod touch (5th generation)
Apple A9 - Apple iPhone 6s Plus
HiSilicon Kirin 810 (T.S.M.C. 7nm) - Huawei P40 Lite / Huawei nova 7i
Mediatek MT2601 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - TicWatch E
Mediatek MT6580 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - TECNO Spark 2 (1GB RAM)
Mediatek MT6592M (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone my32 (orange)
Mediatek MT6592M (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone my32 (yellow)
Mediatek MT6735 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - HMD Nokia 3 Dual SIM
Mediatek MT6737 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - Cherry Mobile Flare S6
Mediatek MT6739 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone myX8 (blue)
Mediatek MT6739 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone myX8 (gold)
Mediatek MT6750 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - honor 6C Pro / honor V9 Play
Mediatek MT6765 (T.S.M.C 12nm) - TECNO Pouvoir 3 Plus
Mediatek MT6797D (T.S.M.C 20nm) - my|phone Brown Tab 1
Qualcomm MSM8926 (T.S.M.C. 28nm) - Microsoft Lumia 640 LTE
Qualcomm MSM8974AA (T.S.M.C. 28nm) - Blackberry Passport
Qualcomm SDM710 (Samsung 10nm) - Oppo Realme 3 Pro

 

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Well duh, it's entirely possible to create a new graphics API in the space of just a few months, right? /sarcasm

Yeah, and it's totally possible for Nvidia to decide that Fermi cards will get DX12 support around the end of Kepler/ launch of Maxwell

 

/sarcasm

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Served its purpose and evolved into OpenGL Vulkan. Vulkan isn't going anywhere, and will be used by all games, that are not focusing on DX12.

 

Who even uses OpenGL except for id?

4K // R5 3600 // RTX2080Ti

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Who even uses OpenGL except for id?

 

Unity engine,Source( Source 2 ), CryEngine(soon) and Unreal 4 support it natively. This doesn't including special porting companies like Feral Interactive and Aspyr that port games to OS X, Linux and SteamOS either.

 

Outside of gaming though, OpenGL is the top dog for professional work. Vulkan will hopefully shake things up really well there, as in some cases companies are still on OpenGL 2.1 or lower because they're just stubborn.

5950X | NH D15S | 64GB 3200Mhz | RTX 3090 | ASUS PG348Q+MG278Q

 

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Served its purpouse already - giving Microsoft the required kick in the balls.

 

That and vulkan. They did very well indeed..

Who even uses OpenGL except for id?

Every game that runs on linux.

"It's a taxi, it has a FARE METER."

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OP i think the word you are looking for is "Deprecated" not "Depreciated"

I really don't think "Deprecated" is the correct word here:

 

dep·re·cate

ˈdeprəˌkāt/

verb

past tense: deprecated; past participle: deprecated

    1.

    express disapproval of.

    "he sniffed in a deprecating way"

    synonyms:    deplore, abhor, disapprove of, frown on, take a dim view of, take exception to, detest, despise; More

    criticize, censure

    "the school deprecates this behavior"

    antonyms:    praise, overrate

    2.

    another term for depreciate (sense 2).

    "he deprecates the value of children's television"

Unless you mean definition #2, which literally means Depreciate.

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iPhone Xr 128 GB Product Red - HP Spectre x360 13" (i5 - 8 GB RAM - 256 GB SSD) - HP ZBook 15v G5 15" (i7-8850H - 16 GB RAM - 512 GB SSD - NVIDIA Quadro P600)

 

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Who even uses OpenGL except for id?

 

Well:

 

Unity engine,Source( Source 2 ), CryEngine(soon) and Unreal 4 support it natively. This doesn't including special porting companies like Feral Interactive and Aspyr that port games to OS X, Linux and SteamOS either.

 

Outside of gaming though, OpenGL is the top dog for professional work. Vulkan will hopefully shake things up really well there, as in some cases companies are still on OpenGL 2.1 or lower because they're just stubborn.

 

However, OpenGL is a redundant, obsolete piece of crap. Vulkan is built from the ground up, so all obsolete and redundant code is gone. If these engine, do indeed support OpenGL, they should have or get support for Vulkan. That would be very nice.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

CPU: Intel I7 4790K@4.6 with NZXT X31 AIO; MOTHERBOARD: ASUS Z97 Maximus VII Ranger; RAM: 8 GB Kingston HyperX 1600 DDR3; GFX: ASUS R9 290 4GB; CASE: Lian Li v700wx; STORAGE: Corsair Force 3 120GB SSD; Samsung 850 500GB SSD; Various old Seagates; PSU: Corsair RM650; MONITOR: 2x 20" Dell IPS; KEYBOARD/MOUSE: Logitech K810/ MX Master; OS: Windows 10 Pro

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I really don't think "Deprecated" is the correct word here:

Unless you mean definition #2, which literally means Depreciate.

wow I didn't know they meant exactly the same thing. Yes, I meant definition 2. 

 

I've just always heard "deprecate" used whenever something is being discontinued. I usually hear depreciate whenever someone is talking about the value of something financially. 

"If a Lobster is a fish because it moves by jumping, then a kangaroo is a bird" - Admiral Paulo de Castro Moreira da Silva

"There is nothing more difficult than fixing something that isn't all the way broken yet." - Author Unknown

Spoiler

Intel Core i7-3960X @ 4.6 GHz - Asus P9X79WS/IPMI - 12GB DDR3-1600 quad-channel - EVGA GTX 1080ti SC - Fractal Design Define R5 - 500GB Crucial MX200 - NH-D15 - Logitech G710+ - Mionix Naos 7000 - Sennheiser PC350 w/Topping VX-1

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However, OpenGL is a redundant, obsolete piece of crap. Vulkan is built from the ground up, so all obsolete and redundant code is gone. If these engine, do indeed support OpenGL, they should have or get support for Vulkan. That would be very nice.

I'm certain they will support Vulkan, as many of those companies are part of the Khronos group that created OpenGL and Vulkan.

 

Then again, Apple are one of the top members in Khronos and are abandoning OpenGL and Vulkan in favour of their own API Metal. They're still extremely close when it comes to their baby OpenCL though.

Then again they won't be playing again the games engine creators, it will be interesting to see how Metal stacks up again DX12 and Vulkan though since Feral and Aspyr will be using it and Vulkan for their future porting and development. 

5950X | NH D15S | 64GB 3200Mhz | RTX 3090 | ASUS PG348Q+MG278Q

 

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wow I didn't know they meant exactly the same thing. Yes, I meant definition 2. 

 

I've just always heard "deprecate" used whenever something is being discontinued. I usually hear depreciate whenever someone is talking about the value of something financially. 

Haha no worries. As always, the English Language is pretty fucked up. I mean, we literally have dozens of words that means some other word. You look up the definition, and it says "see ___"

For Sale: Meraki Bundle

 

iPhone Xr 128 GB Product Red - HP Spectre x360 13" (i5 - 8 GB RAM - 256 GB SSD) - HP ZBook 15v G5 15" (i7-8850H - 16 GB RAM - 512 GB SSD - NVIDIA Quadro P600)

 

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Unity engine,Source( Source 2 ), CryEngine(soon) and Unreal 4 support it natively. 

 

For Linux and Mac I guess it makes sense.  For windows it offers no real benefit over DX.

4K // R5 3600 // RTX2080Ti

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For Linux and Mac I guess it makes sense. For windows it offers no real benefit over DX.

If you limit yourself to windows 10 only then it offers no real benefits over DX12 I guess. But when looking at the overall ecosystem it has the advantage of working on mobile, on IOS, android, desktop OSX, desktop Linux in addition to windows. Anyway we already know that all the major game engines are supporting vulkan. Even frostbite from dice who makes only windows games is supporting vulkan. I think the conceptual similarities between DX12 and vulkan will mean that game engines won't have too much trouble shifting between them once the other is supported.
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