Why do people/companies care about feminists' opinions?

[elfensky]

Now this is a serious question, so I would like to ask for a serious answers. I'm truly not looking to offend anyone and am genuinely curious about this.

 

<Disclaimer>
First of all, I would like to explain that by feminists I mean the stupid/crazy kind, the ones who scream rape when a male looks or whistles at them, the whales who parade around naked with "I'm beautiful" written on them, that kind of people.

By no means do I want to disregard the actual problems that exist in our current world (eg: IS(IS)'s rape of whole villages, the acid 'showers' in India and actual rape). No, I'm talking about complete ignorance and crowd/sheep mentality of the western part of the world.

</Disclaimer>

I first started wondering about this after the whole GamerGate conundrum, the outcry about not having female characters in Unity and the general rise of (stupid) feminism across the USA, the rest of the world and, perhaps especially, the internet.

My curiosity arose even more after (this being a trend) Bethesda's E3 presentation, which showed that they went great lengths to give players the ability to play as a female character.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT against it. I'm all for it actually, the more choice the better. Besides, there are and will be some great games starring female characters, Lara Croft being a prime example, and Horizon Zero Dawn from Guerrilla Games being an upcoming one... (And, if I'm honest, who wants to stare at a dude's ass for hours at a time (if playing a 3rd person game, when you can stare at the backside of a hot chick.)

WHY DO PEOPLE AND/OR COMPANIES CARE ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE OPINIONS?

Let me explain my train of thought - those people are the vocal minority. Let them shout and think whatever the fuck they want, just walk past and continue doing whatever you did before... Why care in the first place? In my case, if one would to approach me I'd say not interested and continue on my merry way. If they get touchy, calling the police + filming for evidence is always an option.

The same thought goes to companies, especially tech-related ones: those people were not nor ever your customers in the first place. Why do you care about their, often uninformed and even worse, ignorant, opinions? I mean yes, PR is one thing, but your actual customers are already aware of what do you, or will, more often than not do research.

It's honestly getting out of hand, and I'm really scared to see what will happen in the following months and/or years if the trend continues.

 

 

 

EDIT: PLEASE, please don't turn it into a flame war or start throwing accusations. I want informed, explained opinions.
 

[techguru]

feminist or people like them should be put against a wall and shot

[Volbet]

Because targeting that demographic is what sells these days. 

Your average consumer doesn't care if a game is tailored in a specific way, and the ones that do care are the people you describe.

 

Just because people aren't customers, it doesn't mean they won't become customers.

When Intel partnered up with Anita Sarkeesian, they didn't hope their regular customers would approve. They hoped a new customer base would appear.

[elfensky]

feminist or people like them should be put against a wall and shot

 

Please! I asked for actual opinions and more importantly, explanations, not this kind of stuff!

[elfensky]

Because targeting that demographic is what sells these days. 

Your average consumer doesn't care if a game is tailored in a specific way, and the ones that do care are the people you describe.

 

Just because people aren't customers, it doesn't mean they won't become customers.

When Intel partnered up with Anita Sarkeesian, they didn't hope their regular customers would approve. They hoped a new customer base would appear.

 

But the chance of actually reaching that demographic is already very small, so why even bother spending millions catering to them for the small chance. Why not try expanding the current one or trying different markets?

[techguru]

Please! I asked for actual opinions and more importantly, explanations, not this kind of stuff!

you came to the wrong place then

:lol:

[SIGSEGV]

"WHY DO PEOPLE AND/OR COMPANIES CARE ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE OPINIONS?"

Because they exist to make money, there you go, question solved

[Guest Kloaked]

Dunno why for sure, but I like @Volbet's theory.

 

 

 

 

feminist or people like them should be put against a wall and shot

 

You literally just said something that's the epitome of why there is this kind of feminism in the first place.

 

you came to the wrong place then

:lol:

 

OP expected more of the forum and I do too.

[Volbet]

But the chance of actually reaching that demographic is already very small, so why even bother spending millions catering to them for the small chance. Why not try expanding the current one or trying different markets?

The chance to reach them might be small, but it's probably what they see as the best investment at the moment.

The demographic that cares about females and minority groups being represented in games are a very vocal demographic. 

Even if they aren't a large group, they are a very loud group. And I would think big companies like Intel and EA (just to name a few) as done the math on campaigning like this.

They wouldn't do it, if they didn't expect a pay off.

 

There is also a larger societal context to see it in. Ever since ´gamers´ were a demographic, they have been horribly stereotyped. 

They started out as basement dwelling geeks, and with Jack Thompson they became violent. Anita Sarkeesian just represent the next step. Now gamers aren't violent, they are sexist.

 

By partnering up with Anita Sarkeesian, EA is actively trying to make games a more widely appealing media.

If EA is can come out as the first comapny with a new image, they can capitalize big time on it.

 

Edit: If you want some sort of analogy, try looking into the Moral Majority. 

They were a very important and influential group in American politics, eventhough they weren't a big group.

But they were very loud, and they seemed to represent a larger group than they actually did.

[Trik'Stari]

Because in today's media crazy world, it's not the most popular or well supported opinion that wins, it's the loudest.

 

Combined with journalists who don't know what journalism is supposed to be.

[Guest Kloaked]

-snip-

 

But you just said those people should be lined up a against a wall and shot. That defeats the fucking purpose of combating the type of behavior nazi-feminists have; all you're doing is making it worse by having that mindset. Joking or not, you're an asshat yourself if you continue to think that way about those people.

[mr moose]

Because the average person in the street does not discriminate between an extremist feminist and a social academic, ergo most people will listen to extremist feminists and believe what they are saying, but if a researching professor comes out and says woman's pay scales are in line with men's, he will be socially discredited within weeks.  If Anita sarkesean (I couldn't be arsed learning to spell her name) went to the public and said Levi jeans where misogynistic employers then half the population would believe her because they don;t know she is a deluded war nazi.   Companies don;t want social backlash so they pander to the minorities (in this case extremist feminists).

 

Just FYI and FEE,  this isn't unique to feminism, but all lobby groups,  think about the public opinion regarding violence in video games, or gay marriage, nuclear power, etc.  People don't discern the source critically and thus believe almost everything they are told.  That is why certain current affairs shows still exist.  It is also why political correctness is a thing, but I digress, I could write an entire compilation of journals on this shit.

 

 

/rant

[techguru]

But you just said those people should be lined up a against a wall and shot. That defeats the fucking purpose of combating the type of behavior nazi-feminists have; all you're doing is making it worse by having that mindset. Joking or not, you're an asshat yourself if you continue to think that way about those people.

who said I was joking

I would make it illegal to bitch and complain like that if I was in power

[Guest Kloaked]

who said I was joking

I would make it illegal to bitch and complain like that if I was in power

 

Then you're a fucking douchebag and you're just as bad as the feminazis

[M156]

-snip-

 

You do understand that normal feminism is about having equality for both men AND women...right? Are you going to sit there and tell me that the workforce doesn't have wage disparity for women who have similar experience? That women are hilariously underrepresented in almost every segment? 

 

I myself believe in having representation by the best person - no more or less. I don't care much for favourites or "status quo". I want the best person for whatever position. 

 

But even I know something is inherently wrong when out of 14 board members, maybe 1 will be a  woman. Last I checked, women aren't inferior in running businesses or companies or doing hard financial work or surgeries or diagnoses or really anything - all people like that want is plain equality. Women should be put through the same bullshit that men are, and from my personal experience what happens is that women are put through MORE bullshit for no discernible reason in more critical positions, at least where I work. 

 

You need to calm down a fair amount. Each cause will have some very violent and very misinformed/misguided members who bend the truth and go too far. Just like each cause has a core membership that isn't batshit crazy and has a reasoned goal and approach to whatever issue they are campaigning for. 

[Trik'Stari]

You do understand that normal feminism is about having equality for both men AND women...right? Are you going to sit there and tell me that the workforce doesn't have wage disparity for women who have similar experience? That women are hilariously underrepresented in almost every segment? 

 

I absolutely will.

 

If you want more women in your segment of the workforce, encourage them to join it, rather than forcing people to hire more women based upon some pulled out of your rear end percentage.

 

A company has every right to hire someone they feel is best qualified for a job. You didn't get hired? Maybe, just maybe, someone was better qualified than you.

[elfensky]

The chance to reach them might be small, but it's probably what they see as the best investment at the moment.

The demographic that cares about females and minority groups being represented in games are a very vocal demographic. 

Even if they aren't a large group, they are a very loud group. And I would think big companies like Intel and EA (just to name a few) as done the math on campaigning like this.

They wouldn't do it, if they didn't expect a pay off.

 

There is also a larger societal context to see it in. Ever since ´gamers´ were a demographic, they have been horribly stereotyped. 

They started out as basement dwelling geeks, and with Jack Thompson they became violent. Anita Sarkeesian just represent the next step. Now gamers aren't violent, they are sexist.

 

By partnering up with Anita Sarkeesian, EA is actively trying to make games a more widely appealing media.

If EA is can come out as the first comapny with a new image, they can capitalize big time on it.

 

Edit: If you want some sort of analogy, try looking into the Moral Majority. 

They were a very important and influential group in American politics, eventhough they weren't a big group.

But they were very loud, and they seemed to represent a larger group than they actually did.

 

I see. Thanks.

 

 

 

Because in today's media crazy world, it's not the most popular or well supported opinion that wins, it's the loudest.

 

Combined with journalists who don't know what journalism is supposed to be.

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

But you just said those people should be lined up a against a wall and shot. That defeats the fucking purpose of combating the type of behavior nazi-feminists have; all you're doing is making it worse by having that mindset. Joking or not, you're an asshat yourself if you continue to think that way about those people.

 

Thanks you for common sense. I suggest just ignoring the person, or ask him to just stop posting if he does not have anything constructive to add anyway. Please.

 

Because the average person in the street does not discriminate between an extremist feminist and a social academic, ergo most people will listen to extremist feminists and believe what they are saying, but if a researching professor comes out and says woman's pay scales are in line with men's, he will be socially discredited within weeks.  If Anita sarkesean (I couldn't be arsed learning to spell her name) went to the public and said Levi jeans where misogynistic employers then half the population would believe her because they don;t know she is a deluded war nazi.   Companies don;t want social backlash so they pander to the minorities (in this case extremist feminists).

 

Just FYI and FEE,  this isn't unique to feminism, but all lobby groups,  think about the public opinion regarding violence in video games, or gay marriage, nuclear power, etc.  People don't discern the source critically and thus believe almost everything they are told.  That is why certain current affairs shows still exist.  It is also why political correctness is a thing, but I digress, I could write an entire compilation of journals on this shit.

 

 

/rant

 

Good point. Thanks.

 

 

 

You do understand that normal feminism is about having equality for both men AND women...right? Are you going to sit there and tell me that the workforce doesn't have wage disparity for women who have similar experience? That women are hilariously underrepresented in almost every segment? 

 

I myself believe in having representation by the best person - no more or less. I don't care much for favourites or "status quo". I want the best person for whatever position. 

 

But even I know something is inherently wrong when out of 14 board members, maybe 1 will be a  woman. Last I checked, women aren't inferior in running businesses or companies or doing hard financial work or surgeries or diagnoses or really anything - all people like that want is plain equality. Women should be put through the same bullshit that men are, and from my personal experience what happens is that women are put through MORE bullshit for no discernible reason in more critical positions, at least where I work. 

 

You need to calm down a fair amount. Each cause will have some very violent and very misinformed/misguided members who bend the truth and go too far. Just like each cause has a core membership that isn't batshit crazy and has a reasoned goal and approach to whatever issue they are campaigning for. 

 

I do not fully agree, @Trik'Stari's video illustrates some of the reasons, but thanks for being reasonable in general.

[Trik'Stari]

I see. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

Thanks you for common sense. I suggest just ignoring the person, or ask him to just stop posting if he does not have anything constructive to add anyway. Please.

 

 

Good point. Thanks.

 

 

 

I do not fully agree, @Trik'Stari's video illustrates some of the reasons, but thanks for being reasonable in general.

I would like to clarify one thing, which is what that video essentially says.

 

Most statistics, are a statement of "what is" not "why is, what is". Correlation is not causation. Just because you are a woman and you didn't get hired, doesn't mean the person who didn't hire you is sexist, just like that person locking their car door isn't necessarily racist because you're black. 

 

People are far too quick to claim racism/sexism/what-ever-kind-of-ism-you-can-think-of these days, rather than look at their situation objectively. If a cop arrests you committing a crime, and you are black, that doesn't make that cop a racist, if he yells "get on the ground n****r!" while arresting you, then there is a massive problem.

[techguru]

You do understand that normal feminism is about having equality for both men AND women...right? Are you going to sit there and tell me that the workforce doesn't have wage disparity for women who have similar experience? That women are hilariously underrepresented in almost every segment? 

 

I myself believe in having representation by the best person - no more or less. I don't care much for favourites or "status quo". I want the best person for whatever position. 

 

But even I know something is inherently wrong when out of 14 board members, maybe 1 will be a  woman. Last I checked, women aren't inferior in running businesses or companies or doing hard financial work or surgeries or diagnoses or really anything - all people like that want is plain equality. Women should be put through the same bullshit that men are, and from my personal experience what happens is that women are put through MORE bullshit for no discernible reason in more critical positions, at least where I work. 

 

You need to calm down a fair amount. Each cause will have some very violent and very misinformed/misguided members who bend the truth and go too far. Just like each cause has a core membership that isn't batshit crazy and has a reasoned goal and approach to whatever issue they are campaigning for. 

I don't give a crap if women aren't equal...they aren't equal...and men aren't equal either

2 totally different humans

and people need to stop treating women and men like they are equal....

and yes I know there are men feminist to

they are just are moronic

 

men and women evolved to fulfill different evolutionary roles

people who are religious don't seem to even realize this

 

also...people need to learn that life is unfair...F'ING DEAL WITH IT

[Trik'Stari]

I don't give a crap if women aren't equal...they aren't equal...and men aren't equal either

2 totally different humans

and people need to stop treating women and men like they are equal....

and yes I know there are men feminist to

they are just are moronic

 

men and women evolved to fulfill different evolutionary roles

people who are religious don't seem to even realize this

 

also...people need to learn that life is unfair...F'ING DEAL WITH IT

I agree. Women are far better at parenting than men are. This isn't saying that they should only be allowed to do it, but that they are simply BETTER AT IT.

 

Conversely, men are more naturally suited to physical labor (not that there aren't women who are stronger than men, but that men naturally have more muscle mass when all things are equal). So there are some tasks that men are better suited for. Like front line combat. There is a great interview with one of the few female front line marines, wherein she says she had to be medivacced out of the combat zone, because her body was beginning to fail, even though she was eating the same meals and doing the same duties as the men. She said "my body just isn't as durable as the mens bodies seem to be. I've tried to look for it, but it's been removed from youtube several times.

 

Not that there can't be exceptions of course. But speaking broadly, there are natural differences between the genders. Men have a relatively simple reproductive system, whereas women have an extraordinarily complex and quite amazing reproductive system. Does this mean there are jobs men can do that women can't do? No, it just means that there are certain things, that each gender is naturally more geared for. Why? Because each body type (male and female) have different needs and requirements to maintain their health.

[elfensky]

I don't give a crap if women aren't equal...they aren't equal...and men aren't equal either

2 totally different humans

and people need to stop treating women and men like they are equal....

and yes I know there are men feminist to

they are just are moronic

 

men and women evolved to fulfill different evolutionary roles

people who are religious don't seem to even realize this

 

also...people need to learn that life is unfair...F'ING DEAL WITH IT

 

Please, I asked not to turn this thread into a shitstorm. I realize everyone opinion's is valid, and this is yours, but you could have.. worded it a lot more softly. I also realize that we indeed evolved to fulfill two different roles, but think about sharing job-types as the next step in our evolution and mental development as a species.

[elfensky]

I agree. Women are far better at parenting than men are. This isn't saying that they should only be allowed to do it, but that they are simply BETTER AT IT.

 

Conversely, men are more naturally suited to physical labor (not that there aren't women who are stronger than men, but that men naturally have more muscle mass when all things are equal). So there are some tasks that men are better suited for. Like front line combat. There is a great interview with one of the few female front line marines, wherein she says she had to be medivacced out of the combat zone, because her body was beginning to fail, even though she was eating the same meals and doing the same duties as the men. She said "my body just isn't as durable as the mens bodies seem to be. I've tried to look for it, but it's been removed from youtube several times.

 

Not that there can't be exceptions of course. But speaking broadly, there are natural differences between the genders.

 

Yes, exactly! You said exactly what I wanted to.

[Trik'Stari]

Yes, exactly! You said exactly what I wanted to.

Indeed. The problem is that the "equality" pushers refuse to accept the idea that some people are born better suited to certain tasks. They call this "the genetic lottery" when talking about financial implications. What they ignore, that life isn't fair, nothing in nature is perfectly equal or balanced (at least not yet)

 

In fact, just about EVERYTHING in nature, is dependent upon imbalance. This is a physical property of our universe, and as a result, I feel it influences everything that falls under the term "our universe". Work cannot be done (speaking from a physics point of view) if all things are equally distributed. @LukaP could probably explain this better than I can, as he is a physicist. It's something to do with concentration of energy and its dispersing whenever it can.

 

(all though LukaP might just call me a nutter and disagree with me, because he loves to torture me for some reason lol)

[Shakaza]

I absolutely will.

-snip-

 

If you want more women in your segment of the workforce, encourage them to join it, rather than forcing people to hire more women based upon some pulled out of your rear end percentage.

 

A company has every right to hire someone they feel is best qualified for a job. You didn't get hired? Maybe, just maybe, someone was better qualified than you.

My sister disagrees with a few key points in the video, if you don't mind a reinvigorated discussion.

 

Her first quote:"'The 77-cent figure is real, but it does not factor in occupations held, hours worked or length of tenure.'

 

That doesn't factor in women who aren't able to reach those jobs in the first place because of the glass ceiling. Perhaps when in the same jobs there isn't a wage gap, but fewer women than men are able to get the best jobs, leading to a large income disparity over their lifetimes."

 

The second one:"'The prevailing theory is that it's because women are condition to have lower expectations in the workplace.'

 

This is blatantly false. In my stereotyping and discrimination class we discussed that it's not that women have lower expectations, it's that women are less likely to be hired because of gender stereotypes. Women are rated high in warmth, but low in competence. This means that people like women more than they like men (which I don't think should be the case, of course), but they don't think women are as capable as men, and so they don't get hired as often, and they don't get promoted as often."

[Trik'Stari]

 

My sister disagrees with a few key points in the video, if you don't mind a reinvigorated discussion.

 

Her first quote:"'The 77-cent figure is real, but it does not factor in occupations held, hours worked or length of tenure.'

 

That doesn't factor in women who aren't able to reach those jobs in the first place because of the glass ceiling. Perhaps when in the same jobs there isn't a wage gap, but fewer women than men are able to get the best jobs, leading to a large income disparity over their lifetimes."

 

The second one:"'The prevailing theory is that it's because women are condition to have lower expectations in the workplace.'

 

This is blatantly false. In my stereotyping and discrimination class we discussed that it's not that women have lower expectations, it's that women are less likely to be hired because of gender stereotypes. Women are rated high in warmth, but low in competence. This means that people like women more than they like men (which I don't think should be the case, of course), but they don't think women are as capable as men, and so they don't get hired as often, and they don't get promoted as often."

 

I would ask for evidence for the first argument, because it is in fact making an accusation of sexism, and since we all live in societies (most of us anyways) live in a society where people are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. You can't prove discrimination with statistics alone, you need actual evidence of it, mainly because it's a crime. Not to mention that statistics can be distorted to support whatever you want. You say discrimination, I can claim (and this is pointed out in the video) *section of society* just didn't apply for those jobs for whatever reason.

 

It may be pointless, but to interject my own opinion, I find women much more pleasant to work with, as they are generally far more professional (more focused on getting what needs to be done, done.) at work than the men I have worked with. Nothing factual about that, just my personal experience, granted I have a VERY meager work experience. The men I have worked with, generally wanted to fuck around and not get anything done.

 

Like I said, in the end, you need evidence of discrimination in all things, as statistics and claims are just that, statistics and claims. If we could convict people based upon accusations and statistics, the world would be a much more horrible place than it currently is.

 

Watch the video again, slow it down, and really analyze it as he makes a lot of good points. Try reading the article on his website for a more thorough breakdown. And his point still stands, if corporations could savve 23% on salaries, men wouldn't be able to get ANY jobs compared to women. 23% is no small number.

 

(Forgive me if I seem to be rambling, as I have begun to sink more comfortably into my drinking trousers for the evening)