NVIDIA Could Capitalize on AMD GCN Not Supporting Direct3D 12_1

[spartaman64]

You realize that everything reaches a limit for advancement? CPUs haven't needed to evolve for 4 years since they've been plenty powerful since. GPUs haven't hit that ceiling of diminishing returns.

Maybe once we leave silicon we will see vast jumps in performance, but we barely have software now that can stress Intels 2xxx chips much less Haswell or Broadwell.

You're acting like 5-10% is nothing. 5-10% a generation from the 9xx i7s to what Broadwell has is effectively a 20-40% jump, and 4 years for a CPU seems like a fair lifespan (as well as GPU). You act like people swap out hardware each year for more. They don't.

Once again, monopoly doesnt mean anti trust nor does it mean the landscape becomes stagnant. Lots of industries have a monopoly yet innovation still occurs.

ok then why were we complaining about comcast buying time warner and list some industries that have monopolies with lots of innovation 

also intel keeping their processors at 85W tdp and 3.0 ghz core clocks its clear that they are not going as fast as they can

[Zah]

also intel keeping their processors at 85W tdp and 3.0 ghz core clocks its clear that they are not going as fast as they can

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megahertz_myth

 

That's not how things work.

[DXMember]

 

 

 

What's your point? NVIDIA has shipped more discrete graphics cards, plain and simple. Just because the dGPU market is smaller than it once was, that shouldn't take away from the fact, that should only add to the fact that AMD has even less of a impact on that specific market. So what, most people use on-die graphics or an iGPU, or an APU. That's not the argument you originally tried to make which was who has sold more discrete graphics cards... stop backtracking. 

 

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.... your image shows only up to last year, and it is in terms of sales. Most of the people that use Radeon bought them year before when they were released.

Reason nVidia sold so many is because they recently released new cards.

A graph that would make more sense is one that shows what users actually use NOW for gaming, which was the graph linked before showing Intel owning the majority of platforms.

[DXMember]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megahertz_myth

 

That's not how things work.

that's funny, because at the end of wiki page it basically says, that intel has to increase TDP and cooling to get 5GHz+ which is basically what overclockers do...

[patrickjp93]

Who writes good code in the game industry in your opinion?

No one does it consistently. You find good snippets here and there, but I haven't found anyone who just outright writes code as tight as many of my classmates. I haven't drudged through the indie scene in a while, but in AAA it's just not there consistently for anyone.

And some are of course better than others. Take at my HPC for dummies blogs. That's the kind of naive mistakes I see get made, not to mention just not compiling with optimization flags, or a better compiler than MVC for the rest of the code that isn't DX itself.

[patrickjp93]

ok then why were we complaining about comcast buying time warner and list some industries that have monopolies with lots of innovation

also intel keeping their processors at 85W tdp and 3.0 ghz core clocks its clear that they are not going as fast as they can

Companies merging when they already serve as monopolies for the areas/markets they serve is a bit different. We know the cable companies and ISPs stay out of each other's way on purpose to maximize their own profits and then fake to the FTC a lack of competition.

Intel's trying to keep AMD alive. Of course it's not making quantum leaps right now. Honestly, why do you think Skylake is skipping AVX 512 for the consumer side though it's coming to the Xeons? AMD is on the ropes and Nvidia's moving in for the kill as best it can. The last thing Intel wants is AMD dead and it forced to give x86 to another firm, and out of all the big U.S. players (the FTC would never allow Samsung or Huawei to have x86 out of national security concerns), Nvidia wants it most.

The answer stares you in the face. Just think about what would happen if Nvidia gets hold of x86_64 by buying the dead pieces of AMD (minus ATI which would go to Intel). It would be two real tech titans facing off once more, in both markets.

[KemoKa]

It's so interesting to see this. DirectX 12 hasn't even been brought out yet and already we're talking about its successor. It's like the broadwell of APIs...

[BiG StroOnZ]

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.... your image shows only up to last year, and it is in terms of sales. Most of the people that use Radeon bought them year before when they were released.

Reason nVidia sold so many is because they recently released new cards.

A graph that would make more sense is one that shows what users actually use NOW for gaming, which was the graph linked before showing Intel owning the majority of platforms.

The graph I posted shows most recent quarter results as well as the same time last year for dGPU market share, which excludes Intel for obvious reasons. The graph you are talking about is not only dGPU sales it includes iGPU and APU sales, so no. If you attempted to read the conversation that took place you would know this.

[KemoKa]

The answer stares you in the face. Just think about what would happen if Nvidia gets hold of x86_64 by buying the dead pieces of AMD (minus ATI which would go to Intel). It would be two real tech titans facing off once more, in both markets.

I'd give it to Qualcomm, that would be interesting to see.

Just sayin'. You can tell me how ridiculous that is all you want. I know how unrealistic it is. It's just morbid curiosity on my part, is all.

[Guest Kloaked]

Didn't see this post till just now.

I logged into the game and the effect is still in the graphics options.

[spartaman64]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megahertz_myth

 

That's not how things work.

ik their processors have lots of ipc but they can still increase the clock speed on their processors and make them faster

[spartaman64]

Companies merging when they already serve as monopolies for the areas/markets they serve is a bit different. We know the cable companies and ISPs stay out of each other's way on purpose to maximize their own profits and then fake to the FTC a lack of competition.

Intel's trying to keep AMD alive. Of course it's not making quantum leaps right now. Honestly, why do you think Skylake is skipping AVX 512 for the consumer side though it's coming to the Xeons? AMD is on the ropes and Nvidia's moving in for the kill as best it can. The last thing Intel wants is AMD dead and it forced to give x86 to another firm, and out of all the big U.S. players (the FTC would never allow Samsung or Huawei to have x86 out of national security concerns), Nvidia wants it most.

The answer stares you in the face. Just think about what would happen if Nvidia gets hold of x86_64 by buying the dead pieces of AMD (minus ATI which would go to Intel). It would be two real tech titans facing off once more, in both markets.

i see how it is everyone here just wants amd to die out

[BonSie]

I find is sad that that the techworld goes mental on a piece of information that's wrong on something that isn't even released yet and starts attacking AMD.

Especially with that asshole title of TP.

[patrickjp93]

I'd give it to Qualcomm, that would be interesting to see.

Just sayin'. You can tell me how ridiculous that is all you want. I know how unrealistic it is. It's just morbid curiosity on my part, is all.

Eh, Qualcomm I think is too heavily invested in ARM at this point to want to jump into the X86 game, but I'll admit it's wildcard.

[patrickjp93]

i see how it is everyone here just wants amd to die out

Don't misunderstand. If AMD had the money and the leadership to make me confident it could drive innovation and compete moving forward, I'd cheer for it happily. That said, Hector Ruiz and Rory Read made catastrophic mistakes in the ATI buyout and cutting corners on Bulldozer while simultaneously betting consumer software would just immediately flip to being multithreaded when Intel had been pushing that for years with little success. AMD is buried so far in debt it will be a miracle if it lives through the end of the decade. 2.4 billion USD made due over the course of 2019, with a 600 million liquid downpayment due in full Jan 1st of that year. AMD has to smash Nvidia's performance to be able to sell at the prices it's supposedly demanding for the 300 series. Or it needs developer support for HSA built up to near ubiquity, and it needs that done yesterday. To compete in HPC AMD is facing down fully custom Skylake Xeons with 28 cores against its 32-core Zen flagship and its HPC APU. And even if it breaks through that level of performance, Knight's Landing is coming in socketed package and PCIe card form. If AMD is going to make HSA and OpenCL work, Greenland is its literal last chance to convince developers. Intel already has the efficiency advantage, and FirePros are the least popular accelerator in the HPC space, I'm guessing for performance reasons despite the theoretical flops numbers.

 

AMD is terminally ill for all intents and purposes. Intel knows that and is freaking out. It has to fight IBM and Nvidia in HPC while trying to not knock AMD out of the PC/mobile market (seriously, anyone else care to explain holding AVX 512 off from consumer chips with Skylake? Cannonlake would sell with or without it). Even if it forgives its half of the debt (Intel bought half of the AMD debts in the ATI buyout to satisfy JP Morgan's risk exposure), that doesn't solve the $600 million time bomb that is Jan 1st 2019 or the subsequent $200 million payments which come due a couple months at a time. And it won't help drive AMD sales. It'll only mitigate how much Intel dampens them. Nvidia sees an opportunity to get hold of X86 which it has been dying for since Denver was conceived. Intel wants AMD alive now so it can take Nvidia and kill AMD later. Nvidia wants AMD dead so it can diversify and fight ARM/Intel. AMD needs a miracle and a half to regain the kind of consumer and industry trust and following necessary to make it a relevant force again. No one wants to see the spirit of AMD go, not even me despite all this. However, you have expert financial analysts who've actually gone into the company offices, analyzed the structure, the direction, the products, and the debts, and said AMD's on its deathbed. What more do you want? If AMD lives without suddenly becoming market leader, consumers are likely to end up with a CPU and graphics monopoly driven by Intel with no feasible competition, even if Qualcomm took up X86 after that.

[othertomperson]

most developers will undoubtedly use whatever the xbone is capable of using, and may ignore 12_1. there is a chance PC exclusive developers will use 12_1. Kepler didn't support 11.1 and it did literally zero credit to AMD for supporting 11.1 features, simply because developers weren't keen on dividing their engine and features up between platforms. Its possible some developers will dabble in 12_1, if there is reason to.

 

This is true if we get a repeat of what happened with Directx 9.

[Victorious Secret]

i see how it is everyone here just wants amd to die out

 

We want ignorant fanboys who make asinine statements like that to die out. 

 

If AMD dies, Intel has to give the x86 license to another company that would actually compete. AMD is a sad sack of corporate misery to Intel and Nvidia. They are the homeless dog who keeps limping along because neither company has it in them to finish them off and end the misery. 

 

Keep those kinds of bullshit statements to yourself. Educate yourself on why we say what we say. We have zero desire to see AMD die, but they aren't doing fuck all to change their outcome. They owe Intel a couple billion in the next year and a bit. They NEED to make money to survive. 

 

AMD doesn't give a shit about you. They give a shit about surviving. They need to pander to the masses and pay for shills to drum up support because they actually need it. They're in shitty shape and they can't afford to have fans pissed off at them for any reason. 

[patrickjp93]

We want ignorant fanboys who make asinine statements like that to die out. 

 

If AMD dies, Intel has to give the x86 license to another company that would actually compete. AMD is a sad sack of corporate misery to Intel and Nvidia. They are the homeless dog who keeps limping along because neither company has it in them to finish them off and end the misery. 

 

Keep those kinds of bullshit statements to yourself. Educate yourself on why we say what we say. We have zero desire to see AMD die, but they aren't doing fuck all to change their outcome. They owe Intel a couple billion in the next year and a bit. They NEED to make money to survive. 

 

AMD doesn't give a shit about you. They give a shit about surviving. They need to pander to the masses and pay for shills to drum up support because they actually need it. They're in shitty shape and they can't afford to have fans pissed off at them for any reason. 

That's pushing way beyond the truth and all courtesy. Victorious, seriously? Don't be an ass. For all flack that people give me, I'm respectful of others and I don't go around attacking companies or other posters.

 

Also, Nvidia has it in them and a vested interest in destroying AMD sooner rather than later. It's Intel who doesn't want AMD dead (yet). And it's JP Morgan that AMD really owes the money to. Intel would happily forgive its half of the debt holdings if it meant it had more time to get Nvidia and IBM out of its way.

 

@spartaman64, don't let him get to you.

[spartaman64]

We want ignorant fanboys who make asinine statements like that to die out. 

 

If AMD dies, Intel has to give the x86 license to another company that would actually compete. AMD is a sad sack of corporate misery to Intel and Nvidia. They are the homeless dog who keeps limping along because neither company has it in them to finish them off and end the misery. 

 

Keep those kinds of bullshit statements to yourself. Educate yourself on why we say what we say. We have zero desire to see AMD die, but they aren't doing fuck all to change their outcome. They owe Intel a couple billion in the next year and a bit. They NEED to make money to survive. 

 

AMD doesn't give a shit about you. They give a shit about surviving. They need to pander to the masses and pay for shills to drum up support because they actually need it. They're in shitty shape and they can't afford to have fans pissed off at them for any reason. 

first of all death threat 

next what im getting is that you want amd to die out so someone who can compete gets a x86 license like nvidia but nvidia doesnt have the R&D for cpus and amd is releasing zen which is exciting so nvidia will probably not do that well 

also rich of you calling me a fanboy when you are the one who is making the fanboy comments 

 

dude we can disagree on things and thats fine we probably disagree on a lot of thing and we probably agree on a lot of things too no need to go around flaming people. the world is already a dark enough place without people going around breaking people down

[Victorious Secret]

first of all death threat 

next what im getting is that you want amd to die out so someone who can compete gets a x86 license like nvidia but nvidia doesnt have the R&D for cpus and amd is releasing zen which is exciting so nvidia will probably not do that well 

also rich of you calling me a fanboy when you are the one who is making the fanboy comments 

 

 

I'm making the fanboy statements? You off the bat insinuated that we want AMD to die out when that is the exact opposite of what people here want. Stop taking things to their utmost degree and being so serious. ITs the same pattern with you in every thread, you do not understand the very basic things that are said and you go off on tangents that aren't remotely relevant to the original point. 

 

AMD having Zen doesn't solve their problems TODAY. Zen might as well be coming out in the next decade for all the good it is going to do against the wall of debt that AMD has due NOW. 

[spartaman64]

I'm making the fanboy statements? You off the bat insinuated that we want AMD to die out when that is the exact opposite of what people here want. Stop taking things to their utmost degree and being so serious. ITs the same pattern with you in every thread, you do not understand the very basic things that are said and you go off on tangents that aren't remotely relevant to the original point. 

 

AMD having Zen doesn't solve their problems TODAY. Zen might as well be coming out in the next decade for all the good it is going to do against the wall of debt that AMD has due NOW. 

im pretty sure their debt is due in 2020 so well after zen release 

 

 

Once again, monopoly doesnt mean anti trust nor does it mean the landscape becomes stagnant. Lots of industries have a monopoly yet innovation still occurs.

maybe i interpreted this wrong but it seems like you are saying if amd dies out innovation will still occur and intel doesnt have to hold back 

 

also every time i see you debating with someone you are always flinging around insults you really need to stop that. that doesnt strengthen your point that just makes you look like a bad person and i dont think you are really a bad person if i meet you irl you are probably nice irl

[NateGSR117]

I am only hoping for the best, but the best is rarely ever the outcome.

[dragosudeki]

I understand that this topic is about Nvidia capitalizing on AMD, but I fail to understand some of the points here. Yeah, Nvidia has more market share. Awesome... What's the market share going to be with the 980Ti? You thought AMD's marketshare is bad, but the adoption of a single card isn't going to be greater than AMD's percentage... Both companies pretty much failed to bring DX12.1 this generation. Even if there is one card that can do it, the entire generation does not follow with that (especially when that card is the more expensive one).

 

To be honest, I don't find this generation of cards exciting. I'm actually finding monitors more interesting than this generation of cards. I hope the next generation(or the one after) will be much better since DX12 will actually be out (and hopefully a couple of games). I'm hoping that they add some more features into DX12. Even then, I will still have to wait for devs to actually put work into proper implementations of these features.

[patrickjp93]

im pretty sure their debt is due in 2020 so well after zen release 

maybe i interpreted this wrong but it seems like you are saying if amd dies out innovation will still occur and intel doesnt have to hold back 

 

also every time i see you debating with someone you are always flinging around insults you really need to stop that. that doesnt strengthen your point that just makes you look like a bad person and i dont think you are really a bad person if i meet you irl you are probably nice irl

There's a massive $600 million chunk due Jan 1st 2019. It must be in full in a JP Morgan Escrow account on that day or it triggers automatic bankruptcy. Someone posted the detailed documentation here on LTT and for the life of me I can't find the post. AMD's not in a good financial place at all.

[patrickjp93]

first of all death threat 

next what im getting is that you want amd to die out so someone who can compete gets a x86 license like nvidia but nvidia doesnt have the R&D for cpus and amd is releasing zen which is exciting so nvidia will probably not do that well 

also rich of you calling me a fanboy when you are the one who is making the fanboy comments 

 

dude we can disagree on things and thats fine we probably disagree on a lot of thing and we probably agree on a lot of things too no need to go around flaming people. the world is already a dark enough place without people going around breaking people down

Did you forget Denver Tegra? There's a basis for it. And besides, if AMD as a company dies with debts still in play, JP Morgan (and Intel too technically) gets to auction off the IP to make money back, and I'm sure the FTC would make sure Intel doesn't abuse that. Nvidia would be first in line to buy if it gets the X86 license. Now, add in the fact Nvidia could hire Jim Keller (assuming Intel or IBM didn't manage to poach him first). That would put Nvidia pretty much on track for the research side of it, even if it cost an arm and leg up front.

 

I know I say this a lot, but you really have to look at all the angels of a problem before you start hypothesizing about various potential outcomes. I think Nvidia would be the best company to take over CPUs from AMD in all honesty. The drive is there, and the money is there. It just lacks the IP and a CPU design leader, though whoever devised Denver is no slouch even if new to the field. And if Intel picks up all of ATI as I suspect it would, it would mean a whole new era of innovation war between two of the richest semiconductor companies in the world. Huawei would brain drained constantly with these two poaching new talent.