Project CARS devs address AMD performance issues, AMD drivers to blame entirely, PhysX runs on CPU only, no GPU involvement whatsoever.

[spartaman64]

No, that's your take on this. I do not share your belief. I think the reason it runs poorly on AMD hardware is the developers fault for not making the gameworks library disjoint from the coregame. I think it's AMD's fault for not having their own library or service to provide. I don't see nvidia doing anything other than using their marketshare to develop tools for developers and sell them. I'm not seeing anyone being bribed here, atleast not with the information provided to me. If nvidia was truely paying people to use their software, that would be a very stupid business practice. As it's apparently not good enough to sell itself and thus means diminishing returns to the company. It would also mean bad press if it leaked, and it doesn't really improve their market share any further than it already has.

can we agree that the drivers are not at fault here

[Roland]

if its just the nvidia logos i would agree with you that its probably nothing significant but in the context of all the mud slinging at amd i think that detail is relevant 

 

Did AMD allow them to use their IP in their game as advertising on in game billboards, and if so how many times? Did other companies allow it, meaning there would be less of other brands such as Nvidia? Or did companies turn them down, and if so, which ones?

 

You missed half the convo, it seems, about how expensive this kinda stuff can be for companies.

[Majestic]

can we agree that the drivers are not at fault here

 

Not in this particular case. AMD Drivers are not really great in general though (CPU overhead as i mentioned ealier), but that's not really related and I never said it was in this particular case. But it COULD add to the difference you see in the benchmark results if the game is particularly CPU heavy to begin with.

 

I don't have the game, so I'm not sure how CPU intensive the game is.

[spartaman64]

Did AMD allow them to use their IP in their game as advertising on in game billboards, and if so how many times? Did other companies allow it, meaning there would be less of other brands such as Nvidia? Or did companies turn them down, and if so, which ones?

 

You missed half the convo, it seems, about how expensive this kinda stuff can be for companies.

well for forza the cars have specs so of course they cant put real cars because they will be sued if they dont make the company's car the fastest one. also usually the other company pays for the product placement like the samsung phones in the avengers or pizza hut in code geass and i dont see why amd would turn down an advertisement opportunity but i guess that isnt impossible so fine ill concede here and say there isnt sufficient proof 

[patrickjp93]

i never saw them so they must have hid them

AC Unity has one in a picture frame near Versailes, Watch Dogs has one playing on a television in a store. Hell Spellforce has one out in the middle of the water (Leafshade I think). Literally any and every Gameworks title has an Nvidia logo buried somewhere.

And you just committed a straw man argument.

[Victorious Secret]

Did AMD allow them to use their IP in their game as advertising on in game billboards, and if so how many times? Did other companies allow it, meaning there would be less of other brands such as Nvidia? Or did companies turn them down, and if so, which ones?

You missed half the convo, it seems, about how expensive this kinda stuff can be for companies.

People seem to have selective memory. Apparently when AMD introduces proprietary things it's okay (TressFX which is only open source because no one would use it otherwise) or Mantle (which straight up failed).

But hey, if Nvidia does something to give the same kind of edge to its own hardware, no no no. Can't have that.

The best part is if the roles were reversed, people would be admonishing AMD to no end, just going to prove that "enthusiasts" have their heads a little too far up in places where the sun doesn't shine.

This is business. Corporations have so little fucks to give about people like us. They care about the masses and for all intents and purposes the masses only see Nvidia and Intel these days, AMD not once has helped it's cause along.

Guess what? It takes two to tango and developers are willingly working with Nvidia and Gameworks. All this anger should be directed at everyone involved, but it won't be. Because gamers also think "developers are their friends".

[zappian]

Not in this particular case. AMD Drivers are not really great in general though (CPU overhead as i mentioned ealier), but that's not really related and I never said it was in this particular case. But it COULD add to the difference you see in the benchmark results if the game is particularly CPU heavy to begin with.

 

 

Based on what?

 

Have you ever owned an AMD card or do you take random here say and myths as hard proof?

 

You people say that we are indulging in speculation and you do the exact same thing.

[spartaman64]

Not in this particular case. AMD Drivers are not really great in general though (CPU overhead as i mentioned ealier), but that's not really related and I never said it was in this particular case. But it COULD add to the difference you see in the benchmark results if the game is particularly CPU heavy to begin with.

I don't have the game, so I'm not sure how CPU intensive the game is.

i would argue the cpu overhead in this particular game is from the physx calculations being offloaded to the cpu

AC Unity has one in a picture frame near Versailes, Watch Dogs has one playing on a television in a store. Hell Spellforce has one out in the middle of the water (Leafshade I think). Literally any and every Gameworks title has an Nvidia logo buried somewhere.

And you just committed a straw man argument.

ok i admit defeat on the logo part

People seem to have selective memory. Apparently when AMD introduces proprietary things it's okay (TressFX which is only open source because no one would use it otherwise) or Mantle (which straight up failed).

But hey, if Nvidia does something to give the same kind of edge to its own hardware, no no no. Can't have that.

The best part is if the roles were reversed, people would be admonishing AMD to no end, just going to prove that "enthusiasts" have their heads a little too far up in places where the sun doesn't shine.

This is business. Corporations have so little fucks to give about people like us. They care about the masses and for all intents and purposes the masses only see Nvidia and Intel these days, AMD not once has helped it's cause along.

Guess what? It takes two to tango and developers are willingly working with Nvidia and Gameworks. All this anger should be directed at everyone involved, but it won't be. Because gamers also think "developers are their friends".

mantle i would argue is very successful as it pioneered the low level api movement and you just listed two open standards also my anger was mostly at the devs not nvidia

[Victorious Secret]

well for forza the cars have specs so of course they cant put real cars because they will be sued if they dont make the company's car the fastest one. also usually the other company pays for the product placement like the samsung phones in the avengers or pizza hut in code geass and i dont see why amd would turn down an advertisement opportunity but i guess that isnt impossible so fine ill concede here and say there isnt sufficient proof

Umm...the hell are you on about? Forza has fully licensed and laser scanned cars from all manufacturers. They are the real deal and in game perform relative to others the same way they perform in real life.

Ferrari hasn't sued Turn 10 because the Aventador beats the shit out of the F12...do you realize how silly that sounds?

AC Unity has one in a picture frame near Versailes, Watch Dogs has one playing on a television in a store. Hell Spellforce has one out in the middle of the water (Leafshade I think). Literally any and every Gameworks title has an Nvidia logo buried somewhere.

And you just committed a straw man argument.

I thought it was more a "no true Scotsman" approach. Oh well, what do I know. I don't spend all my time looking up fallacies and how to call people out on them.

I just wonder if these people are as outraged for Nvidia when a Gaming Evolved title is released. After all, that's just as bad, right?

[Majestic]

Based on what?

 

Have you ever owned an AMD card or do you take random here say and myths as hard proof?

 

You people say that we are indulging in speculation and you do the exact same thing.

 

Why are you accusing/insulting me without waiting for me to provide said evidence? You're not really welcoming debate like this.

 

http://nl.hardware.info/reviews/6034/3/gta-v-review-getest-met-23-gpus-testresultaten-full-hd-1920x1080

[spartaman64]

Umm...the hell are you on about? Forza has fully licensed and laser scanned cars from all manufacturers. They are the real deal and in game perform relative to others the same way they perform in real life.

Ferrari hasn't sued Turn 10 because the Aventador beats the shit out of the F12...do you realize how silly that sounds?

of course if they gotten permission but they cant just start throwing in cars

[patrickjp93]

amd cant support cuda its proprietary to nvidia

Yes they can. AMD can buy a license just as Intel did for Knight's Landing to support it. Nvidia does not withhold access to the standard except a fee per card sold, which is 5% the price of the sale.

[spartaman64]

Yes they can. AMD can buy a license just as Intel did for Knight's Landing to support it. Nvidia does not withhold access to the standard except a fee per card sold, which is 5% the price of the sale.

well you can understand amd's reluctance to pay a fee to nvidia for every gpu they sell

[Victorious Secret]

mantle i would argue is very successful as it pioneered the low level api movement and you just listed two open standards also my anger was mostly at the devs not nvidia

That is also conjecture with no basis in fact.

DX12 was in the works for years already, he'll the consoles already make use of that sweet, sweet "to the metal" coding; AMD didn't come up with this nor did they "force the hand" of anyone.

AMD is walking around claiming credit, basically the loudmouth of the team who acts like he did all the work . Yea. MS, Nvidia and Intel just pulled DX12 outta their ass after seeing Mantle. Right...

[Roland]

Not in this particular case. AMD Drivers are not really great in general though (CPU overhead as i mentioned ealier), but that's not really related and I never said it was in this particular case. But it COULD add to the difference you see in the benchmark results if the game is particularly CPU heavy to begin with.

 

I don't have the game, so I'm not sure how CPU intensive the game is.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that people are going off of one single reddit post about what the issue is. There is no independent, unbiased analysis of it. I have the game, but I don't have access to a full suite of AMD hardware to test combinations (which is what is needed tbh). And at that, I don't have the cred needed to be recognized as unbiased. Without knowing every detail about what the exact issue is, no one can say what the problem is. Except the ones that developed the game and know what their code is doing and how. Until we have that independent analysis, all it is is guessing.

 

 

People seem to have selective memory. Apparently when AMD introduces proprietary things it's okay (TressFX which is only open source because no one would use it otherwise) or Mantle (which straight up failed).

But hey, if Nvidia does something to give the same kind of edge to its own hardware, no no no. Can't have that.

The best part is if the roles were reversed, people would be admonishing AMD to no end, just going to prove that "enthusiasts" have their heads a little too far up in places where the sun doesn't shine.

This is business. Corporations have so little fucks to give about people like us. They care about the masses and for all intents and purposes the masses only see Nvidia and Intel these days, AMD not once has helped it's cause along.

Guess what? It takes two to tango and developers are willingly working with Nvidia and Gameworks. All this anger should be directed at everyone involved, but it won't be. Because gamers also think "developers are their friends".

 

It's called being a fanboy IMHO. Personally, I'm grown. I know how the real world works. If a company wants to keep something proprietary, that's fine. Most companies on the face of this planet have proprietary stuff in one form or another. Even Android comes with plenty of cavities that most don't know or care about. There is a reason Google Play Store isn't allowed on some cheap tablets/phones. 

 

 

well for forza the cars have specs so of course they cant put real cars because they will be sued if they dont make the company's car the fastest one. also usually the other company pays for the product placement like the samsung phones in the avengers or pizza hut in code geass and i dont see why amd would turn down an advertisement opportunity but i guess that isnt impossible so fine ill concede here and say there isnt sufficient proof 

 

The REASON Forza has that, is that they worked out a deal with each manufacturer to put their cars in there. I tell you what, make a game with real cars in it, and see  how fast you get sued for every penny you own. You'd be sued so fast, your head would spin out of control. The reason GTA V, and in reality, the whole series, doesn't have real cars is that they aren't ALLOWED to have them. Period. They would be sued if they ever tried.

[spartaman64]

I thought it was more a "no true Scotsman" approach. Oh well, what do I know. I don't spend all my time looking up fallacies and how to call people out on them.

I just wonder if these people are as outraged for Nvidia when a Gaming Evolved title is released. After all, that's just as bad, right?

 

 

if amd made a proprietary api that lowers performance on nvidia cards as some people here are saying they should i would be very angry at amd but thats not the case

 

[spartaman64]

That is also conjecture with no basis in fact.

DX12 was in the works for years already, he'll the consoles already make use of that sweet, sweet "to the metal" coding; AMD didn't come up with this nor did they "force the hand" of anyone.

AMD is walking around claiming credit, basically the loudmouth of the team who acts like he did all the work . Yea. MS, Nvidia and Intel just pulled DX12 outta their ass after seeing Mantle. Right...

but amd has real world results and that data i would argue is important for dx12 and vulkan 

[Victorious Secret]

Yes they can. AMD can buy a license just as Intel did for Knight's Landing to support it. Nvidia does not withhold access to the standard except a fee per card sold, which is 5% the price of the sale.

Simple fact is AMD is too poor to do it. The whole "CUDA is too closed off" is bullshit parroted by idiots. All offence intended.

Intel somehow decided it was worth it, AMD didn't.

So if anything, blame AMD for being cheap. Maybe if they bumped up their margins and stopped making stupid advertising, they'd be able to afford CUDA and thus close the gap with respect to such technologies.

[spartaman64]

 

The REASON Forza has that, is that they worked out a deal with each manufacturer to put their cars in there. I tell you what, make a game with real cars in it, and see  how fast you get sued for every penny you own. You'd be sued so fast, your head would spin out of control. The reason GTA V, and in reality, the whole series, doesn't have real cars is that they aren't ALLOWED to have them. Period. They would be sued if they ever tried.

i dont understand why amd will turn down free advertisement but as i said that is not impossible so ill back off of that until we have more information 

[Humbug]

People seem to have selective memory. Apparently when AMD introduces proprietary things it's okay (TressFX which is only open source because no one would use it otherwise) or Mantle (which straight up failed).

But hey, if Nvidia does something to give the same kind of edge to its own hardware, no no no. Can't have that.

Mantle cannot harm the performance of an NVIDIA GPU. It can only help an AMD GPU. And the openness of AMD's direct compute effects such as tressfx means that it can debugged and analyzed to look for anything that was done to harm nvidia.

[Victorious Secret]

well you can understand amd's reluctance to pay a fee to nvidia for every gpu they sell

Intel somehow wasn't reluctant to pay the fees.

AMD is too poor and that is their problem, not Nvidias.

[spartaman64]

Simple fact is AMD is too poor to do it. The whole "CUDA is too closed off" is bullshit parroted by idiots. All offence intended.

Intel somehow decided it was worth it, AMD didn't.

So if anything, blame AMD for being cheap. Maybe if they bumped up their margins and stopped making stupid advertising, they'd be able to afford CUDA and thus close the gap with respect to such technologies.

intel isnt directly competing with nvidia while amd is 

[Victorious Secret]

intel isnt directly competing with nvidia while amd is

Umm what.

Knights Landing is where Intel starts, as Nvidia and AMD patents expire you'll see Intel move into dGPUs even more.

Intel is very much competing with Nvidia and AMD.

[zappian]

Why are you accusing/insulting me without waiting for me to provide said evidence? You're not really welcoming debate like this.

 

http://nl.hardware.info/reviews/6034/3/gta-v-review-getest-met-23-gpus-testresultaten-full-hd-1920x1080

 

I think saying AMD drivers are crap because of one game is weird.

Are NVIDIA drivers horrible because their beta drivers bricked gpus once?

[AlwaysFSX]

Umm what.

Knights Landing is where Intel starts, as Nvidia and AMD patents expire you'll see Intel move into dGPUs even more.

Intel is very much competing with Nvidia and AMD.

Once those patents expire it'll be a very interesting GPU landscape. I can't wait until we get some more proprietary stuff. I want GameWorks to be in EVERY game.

 

What proof do you have thats a driver issue?

 

I am not insulting you I am just saying that you have no basis for your affirmations and you are criticizing people for having no basis for their affirmations.

Just a wandering thought here but you know there's no reason for X person to call out Y person if Y person has the same exact reason to call out X person. It's a circle of complaining that gets no where.