my HD 650s didn't need an amp at alll

[Sonefiler]

Hi guys,

So recently I got HD 650s for Christmas but no amp. I tried them on my phone)(xperia z3) and was suprised; it ran completely fine without an amp. Yes, I needed to go to high volume, but it ran loud enough. Same with my pc; with the on board audio from my Z87x-D3H, i was able to easily enjoy my new headphones.

So my question is, why does everyone say that you need an amp for Senns and Beyers? I have recently found out that the need for an amp is a myth and I would like to know what you think.

[Tedster]

I guess because some people want to listen LOUD.

 

Or the Z3 has a strong built in amp.

[Scratchy1215]

well my akg q 701s dont 'need' an amp but if u listen to louder music the amp makes the song clearer, like on my iphone if i have it full blast its distorted a little but if i knock it down 2 it sounds clear, so i can now have it down two and have my headphones just as loud of being full power without bad quality.

 

I mean listening is always about preference same with seeing. if it works for u it works, but a lot of people speak for the majority on here so they help more people then hurt them. i personally think my amp purchase was well advised and well worth it

[Mao_Zedong]

The sensitivity is 103db, while lower headphones are something like 110db and gaming headsets are 115db. Every 10db the volume doubles, so it would be around 1/3 as loud as a gaming headset.

[Aniallation]

I guess because some people want to listen LOUD.

 

Or the Z3 has a strong built in amp.

Z3 has a decent built in amp, better then many phones out there

[theodoro]

They say that they need an amp because of the VERY high impedance (up to 500/600omhs). In my opinion an amp will help with the sound quality but only a tiny bit*. In other words buying an amp doens't worth it in most cases IMO. 

Also, my two computers have different sound cards. The one PC can push the headphones (HD600) to really high volume that actually shakes the headphones, but my other PC can "just" provide enough power to drive the headphones loud. My Samsung S3 doens't do a very good job powering the HD600 (sound quality + volume). I'm not sure if it's the DAC or the amp, but there a very big difference between my phone and my computers. 

The beyerdynamic headphones many times are a bit underpowered by many on-board sound cards, so i do believe an amp is a good buy. 

And finally keep in mind that the amp can be useful if some songs are a bit quiet or we want some room with the volume settings (like adjusting the EQ) 


*this "tiny bit" improvement might be "night & day" difference for someone. It doens't matter if it's a placebo effect or not. If he believes something sounds better then he will probably like it more.

[SSL]

Hi guys,

So recently I got HD 650s for Christmas but no amp. I tried them on my phone)(xperia z3) and was suprised; it ran completely fine without an amp. Yes, I needed to go to high volume, but it ran loud enough. Same with my pc; with the on board audio from my Z87x-D3H, i was able to easily enjoy my new headphones.

So my question is, why does everyone say that you need an amp for Senns and Beyers? I have recently found out that the need for an amp is a myth and I would like to know what you think.

 

This is what the regulars around here keep saying, an amp is necessary a lot less often than people think. As to why this misconception is so pervasive, blame the audiophile mentality, placebo effect, marketing.

[EmoRarity]

This is what the regulars around here keep saying, an amp is necessary a lot less often than people think. As to why this misconception is so pervasive, blame the audiophile mentality, placebo effect, marketing.

Damn, its almost as if we knew what we were doing...

[SSL]

Damn, its almost as if we knew what we were doing...

 

A remarkable coincidence.

[xtroria]

I don't know about how much change an amp will make or whether do we need an amp or not. But either way I grabbed O2 amp as an investment, since NWAvguy also said this:

 

[spoiler=DRIVE REQUIREMENTS: ]I used an oscilloscope with a very fast update rate to capture peak signal values playing various music while listening to the headphones. As mentioned in the main article above, I think most people would be very satisfied with about 2 volts RMS of drive capability (5.7 volts peak-to-peak). This exceeds what you can get from typical 3.7 volt Li-Ion battery powered gear, or 5 volt USB/PC powered audio devices. The FiiO E5 and E7 use a DC-DC charge pump to generate a negative power supply rail to increase their output but still manage only around 1.3 volts RMS which is likely enough for typical compressed pop music, but might clip on wide dynamic range music like classical or audiophile jazz recordings. The HD 650 ideally deserves an amp with a proper split power supply like the FiiO E9 or even a good dual battery Cmoy. But it will need enough gain to get up to at least 2 volts from whatever your source can manage (typically at least 4X or about 12 dB).

[creatip123]

I don't know about how much change an amp will make or whether do we need an amp or not. But either way I grabbed O2 amp as an investment, since NWAvguy also said this:

 

[spoiler=DRIVE REQUIREMENTS: ]I used an oscilloscope with a very fast update rate to capture peak signal values playing various music while listening to the headphones. As mentioned in the main article above, I think most people would be very satisfied with about 2 volts RMS of drive capability (5.7 volts peak-to-peak). This exceeds what you can get from typical 3.7 volt Li-Ion battery powered gear, or 5 volt USB/PC powered audio devices. The FiiO E5 and E7 use a DC-DC charge pump to generate a negative power supply rail to increase their output but still manage only around 1.3 volts RMS which is likely enough for typical compressed pop music, but might clip on wide dynamic range music like classical or audiophile jazz recordings. The HD 650 ideally deserves an amp with a proper split power supply like the FiiO E9 or even a good dual battery Cmoy. But it will need enough gain to get up to at least 2 volts from whatever your source can manage (typically at least 4X or about 12 dB).

 

1 thing I can think of regarding that article: he wrote that article based on the osciloscope reading. When he saw a clip, the 'not enough' checkbox was automatically ticked. In reality it's not a sure shot whether that clip (or whatever abnormality he saw in the osciloscope) is audible or not. Perhaps audible to people with golden ears. 

 

In the end it comes down to cost vs benefit. Is it worth it to spend a few hundred moolah to get that bit of extra edge? Well, it's subjective, and imo, there's nothing wrong with that. The wrong thing is the way lots of people spread info about needing an amp as if it's like a PC needs a mouse. 

[xtroria]

1 thing I can think of regarding that article: he wrote that article based on the osciloscope reading. When he saw a clip, the 'not enough' checkbox was automatically ticked. In reality it's not a sure shot whether that clip (or whatever abnormality he saw in the osciloscope) is audible or not. Perhaps audible to people with golden ears. 

 

In the end it comes down to cost vs benefit. Is it worth it to spend a few hundred moolah to get that bit of extra edge? Well, it's subjective, and imo, there's nothing wrong with that. The wrong thing is the way lots of people spread info about needing an amp as if it's like a PC needs a mouse. 

 

We should start our own campaign of monoprice DAC / Amp, the only thing amp and dac you need

[creatip123]

We should start our own campaign of monoprice DAC / Amp, the only thing amp and dac you need

 

Started one with my topic of 'how different amps sound'. As you can see, it didn't appeal much to the people. 

[SSL]

Started one with my topic of 'how different amps sound'. As you can see, it didn't appeal much to the people. 

 

If something isn't recommended by Linus or Logan, it gets ignored by pretty much everyone on the forum. This, more than anything else, demonstrates that this forum is a useless joke.

[xtroria]

If something isn't recommended by Linus or Logan, it gets ignored by pretty much everyone on the forum. This, more than anything else, demonstrates that this forum is a useless joke.

What are you doing here then?

[Cookybiscuit]

Don't know about anyone else but my HD650's wont run from a iPhone 5.

[SSL]

What are you doing here then?

 

I'm a masochist by vocation.

[EmoRarity]

I'm a masochist by vocation.

Im moderately not offend that I have nothing to do with your on going mass murder of brain cells every time you get on here.

[SSL]

Im moderately not offend that I have nothing to do with your on going mass murder of brain cells every time you get on here.

 

You're the delicious cherry on top, to be sure.

[EmoRarity]

You're the delicious cherry on top, to be sure.

Woot. 

[Oktyabr]

It's common sense, if you stop and think about it...

"how different amps sound" for example...

An amplifier has one job, to make the input signal louder.  A perfect amplifier should be able to do this 100%, without introducing any distortion or "coloration" of any kind.  Almost no amplifier (at least none I know of) are 100% perfect at this job but most of them come very, very, close... in the upper 90+% region, even the one in your phone and PC.  So the goal is 100% and perhaps none get quite in that last 1% of perfection.  If you have an amplifier that is free (the one in your phone or PC) it might be capable of hitting 99% of this mark...  how much better is an exotic $10,000 amp?  It can only improve on that last ONE PERCENT.  However it becomes more difficult when you realize that an amplifier doesn't really make anything louder, by itself.  That's the job of the transducers that are connected to it.  Every speaker/headphone presents a different "load" to the amplifier, in much the same way the mass of every vehicle (chassis + everything else) presents a load to the engine under the hood.  A tiny four cylinder might make a sub compact race around quite nicely.  It might even make a full size car or van a usable vehicle... but bolt that same engine into a commercial truck, etc., while it still might move, no one is likely to be impressed with it's performance.

This is where a separate amplifier might have an advantage.  Even though it might not get any closer to that 100% perfect sound target than the one in your phone, it should (if well designed) be capable of handling a larger amount of different loads *while offering the same level of performance*.   Typically when you ask a smaller amplifier to handle a more difficult load, it will do it but often with some sacrifice.  This can be in the form of clipping (when an amplifier is asked to provide more power than it's capable of), lower dynamic frequency response due to slew rate, muddy bass due to inadequate damping and other nasty things, none of which might be easily detectable by listening but *will* change the sound coming from the speaker/headphone just the same, in the form of distortion aka "coloration".   Start to consider things like "headroom" (basically how much power the amp has left on tap) and yeah, it can make a big difference.

TL;DR:  Think your audiophile level headphones sound good plugged into the tiny amp in your phone or PC?  Try it with even an inexpensive, sufficiently powerful amplifier.

I sold a pair of AKG K701 a few years ago.  One of the guys that came to look at them liked the color white because it matched his iphone and I guess his choice in clothing, etc.  I told him they were notoriously current hungry and wouldn't sound their best straight out of a phone.  We A/B'd them between a relatively cheap desktop amplifier I had, his iphone and whatever HTC smart phone I had in my pocket at the time.  The sound, plugged into the phone, was not only quieter but also thinner sounding, more compressed... compared to a real amplifier.  YMMV, depending on the actual headphones (and amplifier device) being used.

 

[creatip123]

-snip-

 

 

That's a good explanation on what would happen if an under-powered amp is used. Unfortunately the common mindset that has been going around is that 'an amp will automatically make a headphone sounds oh so much better'. This might be true in the case of under-powered amp vs adequately powered amp. What most people forgetting is that it's a case-per-case thing. How hard to drive is the headphone in question? How much power does the currently used amp has? 

 

'Thin' or 'hollow' sounding might be because of the amp can't give the required amount of stable supply of current. 

 

There's an analogy that electricity, and in this context, an amp, is like a garden hose attached to a sprinkler. In order for the sprinkler to perform like it should, it needs 2 things, which is the adequate pressure of water, and the current, or amount of water running through it. Pressure = voltage, current = current (or ampere). When the current drops, the pressure (or voltage) automatically drops accordingly. There's just not enough amount of water to maintain the same pressure. In an amp, under-current distorts the sound. 

 

A heavy distortion should sound something like a warped vinyl being played. A mild distortion might sound something like 'thin' or 'hollow'. 

 

The type of headphone that are most 'current hungry' is the one that has low efficiency/sensitivity rating + low impedance. The HE-6, the one that's considered as the hardest to drive headphone in the market, meets those 2 conditions. It's 50 ohms (low impedance), 83.5 dB/mW (low efficiency). Most HE-6 users actually use a speaker power amp to drive it, because most headphone amps just can't output the required current. 

[Oktyabr]

That's a good explanation on what would happen if an under-powered amp is used. Unfortunately the common mindset that has been going around is that 'an amp will automatically make a headphone sounds oh so much better'. This might be true in the case of under-powered amp vs adequately powered amp. What most people forgetting is that it's a case-per-case thing. How hard to drive is the headphone in question? How much power does the currently used amp has? 

 

'Thin' or 'hollow' sounding might be because of the amp can't give the required amount of stable supply of current. 

 

There's an analogy that electricity, and in this context, an amp, is like a garden hose attached to a sprinkler. In order for the sprinkler to perform like it should, it needs 2 things, which is the adequate pressure of water, and the current, or amount of water running through it. Pressure = voltage, current = current (or ampere). When the current drops, the pressure (or voltage) automatically drops accordingly. There's just not enough amount of water to maintain the same pressure. In an amp, under-current distorts the sound. 

 

A heavy distortion should sound something like a warped vinyl being played. A mild distortion might sound something like 'thin' or 'hollow'. 

 

The type of headphone that are most 'current hungry' is the one that has low efficiency/sensitivity rating + low impedance. The HE-6, the one that's considered as the hardest to drive headphone in the market, meets those 2 conditions. It's 50 ohms (low impedance), 83.5 dB/mW (low efficiency). Most HE-6 users actually use a speaker power amp to drive it, because most headphone amps just can't output the required current. 

I agree with you entirely.  But the point, in regards to this topic, isn't whether or not a separate amp might be capable to drive a given headphone to it's fullest musical performance or not but rather IF the amplifier in a given cell phone or PC is similarly capable.  In most cases it's not.  This is much more a sure thing with phones, due to the power and size constraints of such a device, less with sound chips in a PC/soundcard environment.

[SSL]

I agree with you entirely.  But the point, in regards to this topic, isn't whether or not a separate amp might be capable to drive a given headphone to it's fullest musical performance or not but rather IF the amplifier in a given cell phone or PC is similarly capable.  In most cases it's not.  This is much more a sure thing with phones, due to the power and size constraints of such a device, less with sound chips in a PC/soundcard environment.

 

Motherboard amps are usually plenty capable these days, even non-gaming versions are implementing more powerful amps.

[Oktyabr]

Motherboard amps are usually plenty capable these days, even non-gaming versions are implementing more powerful amps.

Yeah, I meant it the other way around.    Phones can vary drastically.  Most motherboards (and sound cards) don't have similar size or power restraints and presumably most manufacturers take advantage of that fact.