THE APPLE DILEMMA

[Hans Christian | Teri]

ncix does it for 50 bucks. and to be honest even my grandma could build a pc with some instructions (which you can find online in a few minutes).

 

Maybe she can, but she wouldn't. Hell I have friends my age that wouldn't dare touch the insides of their computer. Unrealistic.

[ShadowCaptain]

That last sentence is funny, I feel the same way when talking to people who defend imacs.

 

Yeah that last statement was not aimed at you, It was just a generalisation of these threads and it works both ways like you say!

 

Yeah I know you are discusing the iMac

 

This is IMO an equivelent spec, I tried to choose the cheapest component in each catagory that matched the spec and quality of what apple would use, 

 

Low power i5 like the iMac (though this is actually a slightly faster processor in the PC) includes thunderbolt motherboard, includes wireless AC + bluetooth 4.0, similar sized bluetooth keyboard, and bluetooth mouse with touch scrolling like a magic mouse, a nice but not expensive lian li case 

 

A decent Dell 1080p IPS monitor oh and a 640 as that is equal to the iris pro. All this in a chunky case with cables all over the place

 

Also included speakers as the iMac has passably ok speakers built in

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

 

CPU: Intel Core i5-4440S 2.8GHz Quad-Core Processor  ($189.98 @ SuperBiiz) 

CPU Cooler: be quiet! Shadow Rock 2 87.0 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler  ($49.99 @ NCIX US) 

Motherboard: Asus Z87-Expert ATX LGA1150 Motherboard  ($226.99 @ Newegg) 

Memory: A-Data XPG V1.0 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  ($76.99 @ NCIX US) 

Video Card: Asus GeForce GT 640 2GB Video Card  ($108.98 @ Newegg) 

Case: Lian-Li PC-7HB ATX Mid Tower Case  ($79.99 @ Micro Center) 

Power Supply: be quiet! 500W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply  ($79.99 @ NCIX US) 

Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8 (OEM) (64-bit)  ($97.98 @ OutletPC) 

Monitor: Dell S2240M 60Hz 21.5" Monitor  ($149.99 @ Amazon) 

Wireless Network Adapter: Intel 7260HMWDTX1 802.11a/b/g/n/ac PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  ($44.99 @ Newegg) 

Keyboard: Anker T300 Bluetooth Wireless Slim Keyboard  ($49.99 @ Amazon) 

Mouse: Microsoft L2 Sculpt Touch Mouse Bluetooth Wireless Optical Mouse  ($24.00 @ Amazon) 

Speakers: Logitech Z323 30W 2.1ch Speakers  ($49.80 @ Amazon) 

Total: $1229.66

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available

[Hans Christian | Teri]

 

Yeah that last statement was not aimed at you, It was just a generalisation of these threads and it works both ways like you say!

 

Yeah I know you are discusing the iMac

 

This is IMO an equivelent spec

 

Low power i5 like the iMac (though this is actually a slightly faster processor in the PC) includes thunderbolt motherboard, includes wireless AC + bluetooth 4.0, similar sized bluetooth keyboard, and bluetooth mouse with touch scrolling like a magic mouse, a nice but not expensive lian li case 

 

A decent Dell 1080p IPS monitor oh and a 640 as that is equal to the iris pro

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

 

CPU: Intel Core i5-4440S 2.8GHz Quad-Core Processor  ($189.98 @ SuperBiiz) 

CPU Cooler: be quiet! Shadow Rock 2 87.0 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler  ($49.99 @ NCIX US) 

Motherboard: Asus Z87-Expert ATX LGA1150 Motherboard  ($226.99 @ Newegg) 

Memory: A-Data XPG V1.0 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  ($76.99 @ NCIX US) 

Video Card: Asus GeForce GT 640 2GB Video Card  ($108.98 @ Newegg) 

Case: Lian-Li PC-7HB ATX Mid Tower Case  ($79.99 @ Micro Center) 

Power Supply: be quiet! 500W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply  ($79.99 @ NCIX US) 

Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8 (OEM) (64-bit)  ($97.98 @ OutletPC) 

Monitor: Dell S2240M 60Hz 21.5" Monitor  ($149.99 @ Amazon) 

Wireless Network Adapter: Intel 7260HMWDTX1 802.11a/b/g/n/ac PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  ($44.99 @ Newegg) 

Keyboard: Anker T300 Bluetooth Wireless Slim Keyboard  ($49.99 @ Amazon) 

Mouse: Microsoft L2 Sculpt Touch Mouse Bluetooth Wireless Optical Mouse  ($24.00 @ Amazon) 

Total: $1179.86

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available

 

 

This (again) is not equivalent as it's not an AIO.

[ShadowCaptain]

This (again) is not equivalent as it's not an AIO.

 

I know... i said that in the post.... I am saying that you cannot build an equal build for half the price, in fact this cost the same as the iMac and is still in a big ugly box

 

I am pro iMac as long as it does what the customer wants, I do not find it to be bad value

 

Compared to most windows AIOs its amazing value as they tend to include terrible specs for their cost

[Sauron]

A decent Dell 1080p IPS monitor oh and a 640 as that is equal to the iris pro. All this in a chunky case with cables all over the place

 

Also included speakers as the iMac has passably ok speakers built in

 

You're spending too much on the motherboard, the graphics card (an apu can give you the same graphical performance for less), the cpu (who said it needs to be low power? bring on desktop grade cpus!) and the cpu cooler. There's no reason to go with a non stock cooler if you're not overclocking, especially when imacs hardly even have a cooler (they do but I bet it sucks hard). With those components, that pc is MILES better than the 1100$ imac anyway.

[Sauron]

Maybe she can, but she wouldn't. Hell I have friends my age that wouldn't dare touch the insides of their computer. Unrealistic.

 

If you are too lazy to learn, then spend 50 bucks. Not 500.

[ShadowCaptain]

You're spending too much on the motherboard, the graphics card (an apu can give you the same graphical performance for less), the cpu (who said it needs to be low power? bring on desktop grade cpus!) and the cpu cooler. There's no reason to go with a non stock cooler if you're not overclocking, especially when imacs hardly even have a cooler (they do but I bet it sucks hard). With those components, that pc is MILES better than the 1100$ imac anyway.

 

that is the cheapest motherboard with thunderbolt, no an apu cannot compete with an i5 and 640.... like at all, I chose the cheapest i5 which just happened to be a low power chip similar to what apple use.  the imac cooler is very good, apple have really great coolers inside, it is near silent in operation, has a really good asymmetric fan and does a great job at keeping it cool. fine take $20 off for the cooler if you dont think its needed, there are PLENTY of reasons to get a none stock cooler even if not overclocking, that is a silly thing to say

 

How is that PC miles better? its basically identical in spec to the imac and costs the same... and the iMac will perform very well. OSX has some great tech such as timer coalescence, compressed memory, app nap and things that windows does not have which keeps it running very very fast

https://www.apple.com/osx/advanced-technologies/

[Sauron]

It's a good screen for $200 yes, but it just doesn't compare in any way. It may seem the same to a gamer but trust me when you start working with photography, videography and similar creative fields it just isn't. I can see how this can be hard for you to understand but that's the way it is.

 

You don't need to talk to me as if I'm constipated. Unless you can give me the precise specs of that screen and show me exactly where it is better, your argument is based on thin air. You seem to be of the idea the monitor on there is some kind of ultra professional grade 1000$ panel with pixels that are gold plated on the inside. It's not true, it's just a good 1080p ips panel. Nothing out of this world, and not better than the monitor I suggested. You're experiencing placebo effect. There ARE better monitor than the one I suggested of course, but not in that imac. Plus, I could get a 700$ monitor instead, which would be miles better than the one of the imac, and still stay in that price range. Add the fact that if you work with videography and photography on a low power dual core and no dedicated gpu or ssd you probably don't know what's good for you, and we're done with this objection.

[Sauron]

How is that PC miles better? its basically identical in spec to the imac and costs the same... and the iMac will perform very well. OSX has some great tech such as timer coalescence, compressed memory, app nap and things that windows does not have which keeps it running very very fast

https://www.apple.com/osx/advanced-technologies/

 

It's a 2.8ghz quad core instead of a 1.4ghz dual core for starters, it has the potential of being basically twice as fast in every respect. The fact that it's cheapest motherboard with thunderbolt doesn't make up for the fact that compared to that imac that motherboard is an order of magnitude better. Expansion, overclocking (which the cpu you chose doesn't support), a lot of ports the imac doesn't have. In a pc of the 1100$ imac performance order, thunderbolt is useless, there is literally no use i can think of for it. In higher tier models, then that motherboard is justified, but in this case it is way overkill. I know the imac will perform well, but the build I made will perform better for a lower price. By the way I just checked, that imac doesn't have iris pro. It has hd 5000, which gets outperformed by apus.

[ShadowCaptain]

It's a 2.8ghz quad core instead of a 1.4ghz dual core for starters, it has the potential of being basically twice as fast in every respect. The fact that it's cheapest motherboard with thunderbolt doesn't make up for the fact that compared to that imac that motherboard is an order of magnitude better. Expansion, overclocking (which the cpu you chose doesn't support), a lot of ports the imac doesn't have. In a pc of the 1100$ imac performance order, thunderbolt is useless, there is literally no use i can think of for it. In higher tier models, then that motherboard is justified, but in this case it is way overkill. I know the imac will perform well, but the build I made will perform better for a lower price. By the way I just checked, that imac doesn't have iris pro. It has hd 5000, which gets outperformed by apus.

 

I was comparing my build to the $1299 model not the $1099 model, my pc build was only 100$ cheaper which is not that much of a saving

 

Again you are comparing an AIO to a desktop, I understand that a desktop tower is better value than an AIO but the two are not exchangeable, though I agree that a desktop tower has the pros of being upgradable and repairable, it is more cumbersome and less convenient than an AIO for general users

 

Apples motherboards are really good, though you cant do much with them they are very well made parts. 

 

Thunderbolt is not useless, it is a luxury sure, but not useless. it allows for super fast data transfer between an imac/macbook, allows the macbook to use the imac display as a monitor, there are some great thunderbolt expansion accessories around too. 

 

Actually I forgot to include a good webcam in my build, but I just wanted to show that to get an equal spec you have to spend a similar amount. You can not build something twice as good for half the price no matter how many times you say it

[ygohome]

The trackpad is the reason I go apple for a laptop, OSX has far better integration/support for trackpad. When I use a trackpad in windows it makes me want to punch a baby when basic stuff like two finger scrolling is janky as hell.

 

I agree, the trackpad is probably one of the best features of a Macbook Pro.  It just works and feels great in OSX.  I only use a mouse with the macbook when playing games, and often I still just used the trackpad for some games.

 

But I can't justify or suggest to anyone to buy a MBP just for the trackpad, as great as it is.  That would be ridiculous of course.  My next laptop will be a Dell Mobile Precision m6800 (or more likely, it's successor  next year).    I require something with more upgradability and power than a MBP.   I'll be using a mouse with the Dell for certain.  Trackpads are just plain terrible on anything other than a Macbook.

[Hans Christian | Teri]

You don't need to talk to me as if I'm constipated. Unless you can give me the precise specs of that screen and show me exactly where it is better, your argument is based on thin air. You seem to be of the idea the monitor on there is some kind of ultra professional grade 1000$ panel with pixels that are gold plated on the inside. It's not true, it's just a good 1080p ips panel. Nothing out of this world, and not better than the monitor I suggested. You're experiencing placebo effect. There ARE better monitor than the one I suggested of course, but not in that imac. Plus, I could get a 700$ monitor instead, which would be miles better than the one of the imac, and still stay in that price range. Add the fact that if you work with videography and photography on a low power dual core and no dedicated gpu or ssd you probably don't know what's good for you, and we're done with this objection.

 

I'm not saying it's some kind of ultra professional grade $1000 panel, however it is a good step above what the ASUS screen has to offer. I can say this with absolute certainty because no good reviewer has yet touched the ASUS screen and I'm guessing there's a reason for that. Call that thin air if you will, I'll take it as a sign instead. There are most certainly better monitors than the Cinema display, but the ASUS screen for all I'm concerned is not one of them. And we're not just talking about the low end iMac here, but about the range which does leave you with plenty of power for Photoshop. Premiere Pro is a bit more straining but for lighter use you're still just fine.

[Hans Christian | Teri]

I agree, the trackpad is probably one of the best features of a Macbook Pro.  It just works and feels great in OSX.  I only use a mouse with the macbook when playing games, and often I still just used the trackpad for some games.

 

But I can't justify or suggest to anyone to buy a MBP just for the trackpad, as great as it is.  That would be ridiculous of course.  My next laptop will be a Dell Mobile Precision m6800 (or more likely, it's successor  next year).    I require something with more upgradability and power than a MBP, and as configured the Precision will cost about the same as a fully loaded MBP, but I'll be getting more for my money.   I'll be using a mouse with the Dell for certain.  Trackpads are just plain terrible on anything other than a Macbook.

 

Sadly I can only suggest you stay away from the Dell Precision PC's unless they have become significantly better in the last two years. I've owned 3 top of the line Precision laptops and they have all died on my within a year (luckily I only payed for one of them as the warranty covered the rest). Although wonderful for the first month or so they really were my worst tech experiences to this day. And it's a damn shame because on paper they're great.

[Sauron]

I'm not saying it's some kind of ultra professional grade $1000 panel, however it is a good step above what the ASUS screen has to offer. I can say this with absolute certainty because no good reviewer has yet touched the ASUS screen and I'm guessing there's a reason for that. Call that thin air if you will, I'll take it as a sign instead. There are most certainly better monitors than the Cinema display, but the ASUS screen for all I'm concerned is not one of them. And we're not just talking about the low end iMac here, but about the range which does leave you with plenty of power for Photoshop. Premiere Pro is a bit more straining but for lighter use you're still just fine.

 

If there are no reviews, how do you know it's not good? "I take it as a sign" yeah, sure, as if reviewers had time to check out every single monitor on the planet. And reviews are there to see if a product is good or not, if it's been reviewed doesn't mean it's automatically good. We were absolutely talking about the low end imac here, if you didn't understand that then please read the thread more carefully before answering. I clearly stated we were talking about a 1080p 200$ ips panel.

[Hans Christian | Teri]

If there are no reviews, how do you know it's not good? "I take it as a sign" yeah, sure, as if reviewers had time to check out every single monitor on the planet. And reviews are there to see if a product is good or not, if it's been reviewed doesn't mean it's automatically good. We were absolutely talking about the low end imac here, if you didn't understand that then please read the thread more carefully before answering. I clearly stated we were talking about a 1080p 200$ ips panel.

 

I'm pretty sure what you were talking about is the entire iMac range being useless overpriced POS, but okay. The fact that there isn't any reviews doesn't automatically mean that the screen is bad no, but it does mean it isn't good. If it would have a chance at being as good as much more expensive counterparts I will promise you every reviewer in the world would be all over this little super cheap gem crowning it the best monitor on the planet, but they're not, so in that regard the truth is most likely you get what you pay for, a $200 budget panel.

[Sauron]

I'm pretty sure what you were talking about is the entire iMac range being useless overpriced POS, but okay. The fact that there isn't any reviews doesn't automatically mean that the screen is bad no, but it does mean it isn't good. If it would have a chance at being as good as much more expensive counterparts I will promise you every reviewer in the world would be all over this little super cheap gem crowning it the best monitor on the planet, but they're not, so in that regard the truth is most likely you get what you pay for, a $200 budget panel.

 

Which is what I get with a 21.5" imac too. As for the first sentence, I never said that. I believe they are all overpriced, that's true, and with most of them with the money spared by building my own rig I could buy a monitor that would blow even the 27" imac one out of the water. But I never said they are inherently bad or useless. They are bad for the price, not in general.

[MichaelBP]

I think you might miss something really important here.... we are not the average consumers - this hole spec-for-spec discussion is almost completely a wast of time and keyboard lifespan.

 

As an Apple user myself I can tell you that there is mainly to types of Apple users (not counting fanboys, honestly how cares about them). There is the users who have made an informed decision and knows what they are getting, and then there is the ones that just think that the products are pretty and fancy.

 

What enthusiast (like us) often don't get is that non of the above users are "the bad one". Both is getting what they are paying for, both gets a great experience out of it. The classes I attend is filled with girls with MacBooks, they don't know anything about the hardware and specs, they just like the computer, and so what? You can argue about the specs all day long, but the bitter truth of it all is that is dos simply not matter to the average end-user. They have a great time, they get stuff done - they are getting what they payed for, the experience, not the specs. 

[Trik'Stari]

I don't see how it's a dilemma, Apple products are over engineered, closed ecosystem, that is honestly less powerful. The bigger dilemma is how Apple continues to exist?

 

I had an ipod slim mini kinda thing, which was expensive. I used it about 6 times until I got my windows 8 phone, and transferred all of the music to that (with much room to spare), and now my ipod gathers dust.

[mr moose]

Are people seriously trying to insinuate that cut down mobile dual core i5 is suitable for video work or even photography for that matter? I don't care what company makes it that is laughable.

 

It seems the the difference between the hard core mac fans and the hardcore DIY fans are that mac fans don't understand what the term "subjective opinion" means and are rather hypocritical in its application.

 

Given that the main proponent of the DIY approach has said many times if the AIO or looks is that important then buy it, he knows DIY AIO can't be done but that is not what he is debating.

 

 

Try making your posts without using a single subjective adjective.

[spartaman64]

So you'd rather drive a Skoda Fabia even if you could afford a VW Golf or an Audi A3?

 

 

 

I call BS. $600 won't buy you a halfway decent PC with a "good monitor" and even if you could pull it off, it would probably look craptastic. Also, don't forget that a Mac will come with a copy of their latest OS, a keyboard and a magic mouse. Free shipping, too.

 

I'm not a Mac user. I built my own PC that is running Windows 7 Pro.

 

 

 

No. You're not alone.

um the 1100 imac has a 1.4Ghz laptop processor and only intel intergrated graphics so yea you can get a i7 4770k and a 1440p monitor with that

[79wjd]

um the 1100 imac has a 1.4Ghz laptop processor and only intel intergrated graphics so yea you can get a i7 4770k and a 1440p monitor with that

a 4770k and a 1440p monitor will be more than $600 alone, let alone all the other crap that you need to buy...

And even with a 4770k and any monitor (not 1440p) + other computer parts will be over $600.

[Sauron]

Are people seriously trying to insinuate that cut down mobile dual core i5 is suitable for video work or even photography for that matter? I don't care what company makes it that is laughable.

 

It seems the the difference between the hard core mac fans and the hardcore DIY fans are that mac fans don't understand what the term "subjective opinion" means and are rather hypocritical in its application.

 

Given that the main proponent of the DIY approach has said many times if the AIO or looks is that important then buy it, he knows DIY AIO can't be done but that is not what he is debating.

 

 

Try making your posts without using a single subjective adjective.

THANK YOU

[Sauron]

a 4770k and a 1440p monitor will be more than $600 alone, let alone all the other crap that you need to buy...

And even with a 4770k and any monitor (not 1440p) + other computer parts will be over $600.

he was saying for 1100$...

[79wjd]

he was saying for 1100$...

*derp* 

 

Well, anyway....value a computer based on its performance, not specs, so performance wise the mac performs like a much higher spec'd pc. Although, I still would never buy a mac desktop--just MacBooks.

[Sauron]

*derp* 

 

Well, anyway....value a computer based on its performance, not specs, so performance wise the mac performs like a much higher spec'd pc. Although, I still would never buy a mac desktop--just MacBooks.

 

Oh come on, no it doesn't. The 1100$ model doesn't even have an ssd, meaning a pentium with an ssd would perform better. Maybe it "feels" a bit faster than it actually is (and I don't believe so), but when running heavy programs (or pretty much any program to be honest) a desktop i7 atomizes that silly low power laptop dual core.