Amazon ends Walkout Technology from its grocery stores

[NumLock21]

Amazon Go with its Walkout technology that was introduced a while back, where customer with an Amazon account can simply walk in, take what they need and walk out has ended. The shopping experience may be convenient as you won't have to wait for the check out line, but it actually

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relied on more than 1,000 people in India watching and labeling videos to ensure accurate checkouts. The cashiers were simply moved off-site, and they watched you as you shopped.

 

This widely missed Amazon’s internal goals of reaching less than 50 reviews per 1,000 sales. Amazon called this characterization inaccurate, and disputes how many purchases require reviews.

“The primary role of our Machine Learning data associates is to annotate video images, which is necessary for continuously improving the underlying machine learning model powering,” said an Amazon spokesperson to Gizmodo. However, the spokesperson acknowledged these associates validate “a small minority” of shopping visits when AI can’t determine a purchase.

Amazon is going to replace their Walkout technology with what they called Dash Cart, which is a

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a scanner and screen that’s embedded in your shopping cart, allowing you to checkout as you shop. These offer a more reliable solution than Just Walk Out. Amazon Fresh stores will also feature self check out counters from now on, for people who aren’t Amazon members.

“We’re rolling out Amazon Dash Cart, our smart-shopping carts,” said an Amazon spokesperson to Gizmodo. Amazon confirmed this feature is replacing its Just Walk Out technology in existing stores.

 

Gizmodo (article link)

[porina]

With advances in (future) AI maybe it could work then?

 

Scan as you go isn't new but I guess it just works. I've been using it for grocery shopping for years, although you still have to scan a terminal at the end to make payment. Removing that would save a little time and aid convenience.

[starsmine]

12 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

Amazon Go with its Walkout technology that was introduced a while back, where customer with an Amazon account can simply walk in, take what they need and walk out has ended. The shopping experience may be convenient as you won't have to wait for the check out line, but it actually

Amazon is going to replace their Walkout technology with what they called Dash Cart, which is a

Gizmodo (article link)

wait I completely misunderstood how amazon go worked. I thought they did use AI with a pinch of NFC is a select group of items to know what you were getting. 
 

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According to The Information, 700 out of 1,000 Just Walk Out sales required human reviewers as of 2022. This widely missed Amazon’s internal goals of reaching less than 50 reviews per 1,000 sales. Amazon called this characterization inaccurate, and disputes how many purchases require reviews.

 

Oh they were, it just was not accurate enough.

[Needfuldoer]

So it was powered by AI! (Anonymous Indians.)

 

11 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

a scanner and screen that’s embedded in your shopping cart, allowing you to checkout as you shop.

Sounds a lot like the "Scan It!" system Stop & Shop and Giant have had for at least 20 years.

 

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

47 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

Amazon is going to replace their Walkout technology with what they called Dash Cart, which is a

Gizmodo (article link)

Given how badly self checkouts seem to be working in big retail chains, this seems doomed to fail.

Now I don't know if that video is sensationalised or not, but it seems like a huge problem.

 

It seems all these technologies designed around having less on-site staff, just result in more remote staff having to monitor an increasing number of cameras to avoid theft.  Which completely fails when organised crime gangs decide to attack a store.

 

These companies seem to have grossly midjudged the value of traditional checkouts in discouraging theft.  There were more eyes on the floor to see what you are doing and you cannot exit quickly as leaving was restricted to being hearded like cattle to the checkouts.

[Avocado Diaboli]

3 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

a scanner and screen that’s embedded in your shopping cart, allowing you to checkout as you shop.

Imagine reinventing something that already exists, because your plan of making grocery store employees redundant backfired and you needed 1000 employees for the reported 43 locations you have worldwide. Though having it built directly into the carts seems like a dumb idea. How do you charge the thing? With the handheld scanners, you can just deposit them back at the charging rack. Do they now have to wire up the corral for power delivery?

[Caroline]

"Smart shopping carts"

 

Now, pardon my French but....

 

you gotta be fucking kidding me

[Lunar River]

I would like to be able to go out shopping and not have to interact with anyone…but this is sooooo easily abused.

[Lightwreather]

34 minutes ago, Caroline said:

Now, pardon my French but....

Germanic actually

 

Sorry, but the expressions you get when pulling this irl are really hilarious

[NumLock21]

27 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Imagine reinventing something that already exists, because your plan of making grocery store employees redundant backfired and you needed 1000 employees for the reported 43 locations you have worldwide. Though having it built directly into the carts seems like a dumb idea. How do you charge the thing? With the handheld scanners, you can just deposit them back at the charging rack. Do they now have to wire up the corral for power delivery?

Smart cart will still rely on the 1000 employees. All items must be waved in front of the smart screen so they can manually tally them up as you shop.
Most places have a designated place for shopping carts. I'm thinking that will be hooked up to a power source and there will be guided tracks for the cart wheels to sit on so it gets charge wirelessly.

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, starsmine said:

wait I completely misunderstood how amazon go worked. I thought they did use AI with a pinch of NFC is a select group of items to know what you were getting. 

I used it in Seattle.

 

It's not as how people think it works, basically you "sign in" / "sign out" of the store with the amazon go app. The store itself basically monitors items you pick up using cameras. It's actually more annoying to use than a self-checkout in practice.

 

What they are switching to is basically the same thing 7-11 uses which is you scan items as you pick them up (or you pick everything up and hog the lotto table (which is what I do  )) and then sign out with a QR code at the exit to the store which then goes "thank you for shopping at 7-11" which is to indicate to the staff you paid for your stuff.

 

Some of the completely wacky people on the internet think Amazon changed this because of the changes in California laws about how much has to be shoplifted to be considered a felony, which is quite frankly stupid.

 

Shoplifting is discouraged by having retail stores arranged in ways so people can't just walk in, take something and walk out. That's why stores traditionally put all the checkouts at the SINGLE entrance to the building. You can't leave the building without going through the checkout. Turnstiles do not dissuade people from shoplifting, they'll just ram themselves or a shopping cart through it.

 

You dissuade people from shoplifting by designing the store so that there is high visibility, and anything that is expensive is kept out of sight. Stores would rather stuff their buildings and design them like warehouses (eg costco) and then complain when people fill the cart and run out the entrance. Costco has extremely low visibility because products are stacked to the ceiling.  Most stores like Walmart have shelves that are well above the average person's height.

 

Trying to apply "amazon go"'s technology to a Costco or a Walmart is impossible. It can only work by having shelves at waist height and freezers/fridges in the walls. It was pretty much doomed from the beginning if anyone picks up more than 4 items. They have two hands and two armpits, where else are they going to hold things? In a bag they brought in with themselves. At that point the software just has to hope that nothing is returned to the shelves and counted a second time.

 

At any rate, self-checkout app-based self-checkout is probably the way forward as long as the phone can be trusted. Because seriously, I can see it now.

Person goes in the store, and "scans" every item they pick up, but the compromised app reports every item as cheap item like a chocolate bar. So when they exit the store the staff hear "thank you for shopping" but they've really exited the store with hundreds of dollars worth of product they've relabeled as a few dollars.

 

We might see some companies require people to use only iPhones to use their checkout apps.

[NumLock21]

42 minutes ago, Lunar River said:

I would like to be able to go out shopping and not have to interact with anyone…but this is sooooo easily abused.

With the smart cart interaction is more than you can ever imagine
*Grabs cart, and the smart display plays a jingle*
*Then appears an unknown person who greets you by saying they will be your personal cashier for the day. YAY!*

*Then they will start doing small talk and stare at you the whole time as you shop, with their POV like the Dell nose cam*

[Kisai]

59 minutes ago, Lunar River said:

I would like to be able to go out shopping and not have to interact with anyone…but this is sooooo easily abused.

Order Amazon, Uber Eats, Doordash, SkiptheDishes, etc

 

You know what's really funny? I've received my orders to my door (without having to see the courier) 90% of the time since I moved. I now live in a tall building where the courier has to buzz the unit to be let in. Amazingly enough Amazon, Canada Post, and Purlator follow the instructions and get the courier keyfob from the rental office to deliver all the parcels they need to without having to buzz anyone. Meanwhile, Fedex and UPS are too bloody lazy to even try and buzz someone, they just leave a "sorry we missed you" sticker on the entrance and don't even try.

 

The one time Skip didn't deliver right to my door? I had to go find it outside the lobby, I suspect they might have dumped it at the entrance because another courier was tying up the enterphone system. Regardless, the same problem potentially exists here.

 

Someone could be let in the building, gets to your floor, delivers your parcel, but swipes someone elses on the way out. 

 

There is a certain level of trust inherent in interacting with others, and I would personally prefer to have everything delivered to avoid having to deal with pushy sales people. This is a lot of self-inflicted wounds these retailers have done to themselves. Brick and morter stores are failing not because of Walmart and Amazon anymore, they're failing because they don't avail themselves online.  People do not want to drive 6 blocks to buy a single loaf of bread. People want to walk to the bakery that is across the street/next-door, they don't want to have to go into every bakery looking for the best price like it's the 1920's. If that Bakery a few blocks away is willing to deliver at no cost, while the closest bakery will not, then that few-blocks-away Bakery is going to succeed far more.

 

The entire uber-eats model works right now because people don't want to own a car, and can justify spending $300/mo in delivery fees instead of car payments. It is not sustainable in that the present layout of cities doesn't have stores/restaurants planned in a way to minimize traffic congestion by couriers. Right now cities are arranged in very inefficient ways that encourage restaurants to all congregate in the central shopping district, and are sometimes 20 minutes away from the actual residents by car. This has to change by having food, restaurants and other deliverable items be within the catchment area of the residential areas. Cul-de-sac's are designed only be driven in. If you want food delivered inside one, you are going to be waiting longer than the person who lives in a skyscraper 6 blocks from where they ordered the food.

 

What couriers could do to fix this themselves, is have couriers draw a catchment area of their own that they are willing to pick up from and deliver to. So if someone lives in a tower, they might say they will only deliver to their own tower, but will pick up anywhere within 6 blocks, so they can go get by bike/moped or even on foot.

[porina]

6 minutes ago, Kisai said:

At any rate, self-checkout app-based self-checkout is probably the way forward as long as the phone can be trusted. Because seriously, I can see it now.

Person goes in the store, and "scans" every item they pick up, but the compromised app reports every item as cheap item like a chocolate bar. So when they exit the store the staff hear "thank you for shopping" but they've really exited the store with hundreds of dollars worth of product they've relabeled as a few dollars.

The grocery store I use allows the use of the store supplied handheld devices like those shown by Needfuldoer earlier, or you can use their app on your own phone. When I first started using my phone, it was a pretty horrible ergonomic experience. I soon switched to the store provided devices. They have a holder for them on the trolleys, and they're built for that single purpose.

 

Could the phone app be compromised? Maybe, but they could do something similar to banking apps which generally refuse to run on jailbroken phones. Also the stores do random checks on shoppers using this function. It isn't a full rescan but a sampling of items to make sure they're all scanned. Don't think you can easily hide things at the bottom. They dig as well as pick from the top. If you're up to no good, how much risk are you willing to take? I'm sure the stores know how much they're losing due to theft and their security is appropriately scaled as such.

[Kisai]

3 minutes ago, porina said:

The grocery store I use allows the use of the store supplied handheld devices like those shown by Needfuldoer earlier, or you can use their app on your own phone. When I first started using my phone, it was a pretty horrible ergonomic experience. I soon switched to the store provided devices. They have a holder for them on the trolleys, and they're

built for that single purpose.

And that's fine, because the same people might want to use cash or gift cards too.

 

3 minutes ago, porina said:

Could the phone app be compromised? Maybe, but they could do something similar to banking apps which generally refuse to run on jailbroken phones.

That is what they should be doing, but as of right now it seems like all these self-checkouts are really just web-apps that actively communicate with the website. So compromising the "webview" code with extensions (Eg like an adblocker) could compromise it even if the app itself isn't.

 

3 minutes ago, porina said:

Also the stores do random checks on shoppers using this function. It isn't a full rescan but a sampling of items to make sure they're all scanned. Don't think you can easily hide things at the bottom. They dig as well as pick from the top. If you're up to no good, how much risk are you willing to take? I'm sure the stores know how much they're losing due to theft and their security is appropriately scaled as such.

7-11 and Amazon aren't gonna do this.

 

The only time anyone checks anything is when you have a physical shopping cart, and they aren't actually checking that the items are correct, they are checking the number of items match the receipt, and marking the receipt to prevent return fraud.

 

You are not obligated to let them do that except in Costco where you agreed to it by becoming a member.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/costco-retailer-bag-searches-1.5185488

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For Farr, who has worked in the security industry for about 25 years as a loss prevention agent, supervisor and now a freelance contractor, the issue isn't about whether the man was discriminated against — it's about the fact that in most cases retailers, by law, aren't allowed to search customers' bags.  

 

...

Paterson also points out that security guards may search a person if they have their permission. 

If there are signs that stipulate customers are subject to bag searches, as is the case at Costco, Paterson says that could be construed as consent. Costco, a private club that requires a membership, also stipulates that it reserves the right to check customers' bags as part of its membership conditions.

At any rate, the problem always comes back to convenience. People, shoplifting or not, will be dissuaded from entering a store that has visible security guards because they won't want to be accused of shoplifting, and don't want to be roughed up by some power-tripping security guard who thinks they are law enforcement.

 

[Lunar River]

58 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Order Amazon, Uber Eats, Doordash, SkiptheDishes, etc

can't when no one delivers out as far as i live.

[Needfuldoer]

That's one thing I like about Market Basket here in New England; they still exclusively have human cashiers and baggers like it's the 90s, and at least half the registers are manned at any time. (Usually there are only a couple registers that are closed.) They don't even do self checkout; their CEO doesn't want it. They'll say it's for the human touch, and that might be partially true, but I think the biggest motive is that it minimizes shrink. (They're a privately owned local chain and they consistently have better prices than Stop & Shop, Shaw's / Star Market, and even Walmart sometimes, so they must be doing something right.)

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

The only time anyone checks anything is when you have a physical shopping cart, and they aren't actually checking that the items are correct, they are checking the number of items match the receipt, and marking the receipt to prevent return fraud.

Walmarts around my area always have someone checking receipts, but they only seem to stop you if you have a bunch of loose items in your cart. They never look like they're actually checking the contents of the cart against the receipt unless someone's got a big-ticket item and rang it up as a can of peas.

 

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Though having it built directly into the carts seems like a dumb idea. How do you charge the thing?

Just stick one of these bad boys on the back wheel and it will charge as it's pushed around!

 

 

[Kisai]

11 minutes ago, Lunar River said:

can't when no one delivers out as far as i live.

Then that's a decision you have to live with. 

 

Like this argument comes up all the time (not on LTT, but other forums where people think they know better than everyone), where people are like "you can save money by moving to the boonies, making all your own food, growing a garden, etc"

 

When the reality is literately, "not everything is about money", Yes, you save money in housing by living far away from everything, but you now have to buy a car, and insurance for the car, and fuel for the car. You are beholden to several variables you have no control over like interest rates. If anyone actually sat there and analyzed how much that "cheaper housing" is, they'd realized they made the same mistake of buying $600 worth of fishing gear to catch a "Free fish". Maybe that's fine if you're fishing every day, but let's leave out the fact you need a license and there are limits.

[Middcore]

The idea of having people in India peering at footage of people's shopping carts trying to figure out what they bought and pretending it's a groundbreaking technology is very funny.

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

I used it in Seattle.

 

It's not as how people think it works, basically you "sign in" / "sign out" of the store with the amazon go app. The store itself basically monitors items you pick up using cameras. It's actually more annoying to use than a self-checkout in practice.

 

What they are switching to is basically the same thing 7-11 uses which is you scan items as you pick them up (or you pick everything up and hog the lotto table (which is what I do  )) and then sign out with a QR code at the exit to the store which then goes "thank you for shopping at 7-11" which is to indicate to the staff you paid for your stuff.

 

Some of the completely wacky people on the internet think Amazon changed this because of the changes in California laws about how much has to be shoplifted to be considered a felony, which is quite frankly stupid.

 

Shoplifting is discouraged by having retail stores arranged in ways so people can't just walk in, take something and walk out. That's why stores traditionally put all the checkouts at the SINGLE entrance to the building. You can't leave the building without going through the checkout. Turnstiles do not dissuade people from shoplifting, they'll just ram themselves or a shopping cart through it.

 

You dissuade people from shoplifting by designing the store so that there is high visibility, and anything that is expensive is kept out of sight. Stores would rather stuff their buildings and design them like warehouses (eg costco) and then complain when people fill the cart and run out the entrance. Costco has extremely low visibility because products are stacked to the ceiling.  Most stores like Walmart have shelves that are well above the average person's height.

 

Trying to apply "amazon go"'s technology to a Costco or a Walmart is impossible. It can only work by having shelves at waist height and freezers/fridges in the walls. It was pretty much doomed from the beginning if anyone picks up more than 4 items. They have two hands and two armpits, where else are they going to hold things? In a bag they brought in with themselves. At that point the software just has to hope that nothing is returned to the shelves and counted a second time.

 

At any rate, self-checkout app-based self-checkout is probably the way forward as long as the phone can be trusted. Because seriously, I can see it now.

Person goes in the store, and "scans" every item they pick up, but the compromised app reports every item as cheap item like a chocolate bar. So when they exit the store the staff hear "thank you for shopping" but they've really exited the store with hundreds of dollars worth of product they've relabeled as a few dollars.

 

We might see some companies require people to use only iPhones to use their checkout apps.

Yea shoplifting, while a problem, is not a growing problem and hasn't been. Its wild the retailers got away with bold face lying about that for so long without pushback the last couple of years. (total dollar amount of shrink has gone up, true, but that's because a chocolate bar went from 1 buck to 2 bucks, not because two chocolate bars are being stolen). I honestly think part of it is managers who failed upwards not knowing how that dynamic works so they are yelling about the sky falling. (and now have devastated their own sales/revenue by locking things up, like bruh Im not going to spend 5 min finding someone to unlock a manual toothbursh then wait 10min for them to find time to do that as they are already overworked)

Shoplifting has not increased. I would be surprised if amazon is changing this ever had the argument of shoplifting as part of it. If a transaction is requiring manual human reviewing 70 times out of 100 when they wanted it to be 5 times out of 100, and they have not significant impacts on lowering that number through whatever means (software updates or shuffling the floor layout). then yea putting a pause on this implementation in the real world is valid until there comes a time when they find a way to make the amount of reviews go down.

[Lunar River]

38 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Like this argument comes up all the time (not on LTT, but other forums where people think they know better than everyone), where people are like "you can save money by moving to the boonies, making all your own food, growing a garden, etc"

 

When the reality is literately, "not everything is about money", Yes, you save money in housing by living far away from everything, but you now have to buy a car, and insurance for the car, and fuel for the car. You are beholden to several variables you have no control over like interest rates. If anyone actually sat there and analyzed how much that "cheaper housing" is, they'd realized they made the same mistake of buying $600 worth of fishing gear to catch a "Free fish". Maybe that's fine if you're fishing every day, but let's leave out the fact you need a license and there are limits.

well good thing i moved out to "the boonies" for the peace of quiet. and even when i lived in town, i still had a car. You're making quite a lot of weird assumptions about people who decide to live rural.

[Donut417]

8 hours ago, porina said:

With advances in (future) AI maybe it could work then?

 

Scan as you go isn't new but I guess it just works. I've been using it for grocery shopping for years, although you still have to scan a terminal at the end to make payment. Removing that would save a little time and aid convenience.

The problem I have with scan and go at least at Meijer, I have to wait for a clerk as they have to scan 4 items at random from the order. So I’m stuck there with a thumb up my ass waiting as the clerks are helping out other shoppers at self checkout. 

[porina]

8 hours ago, Kisai said:

The only time anyone checks anything is when you have a physical shopping cart, and they aren't actually checking that the items are correct, they are checking the number of items match the receipt, and marking the receipt to prevent return fraud.

 

You are not obligated to let them do that except in Costco where you agreed to it by becoming a member.

It may vary by country and store policy. I'm not familiar with the exact law in the UK, but if you get randomly checked, it is during the checkout process before you can complete it. You could say the store is checking items it still owns since you haven't paid for it yet.

 

5 hours ago, Donut417 said:

The problem I have with scan and go at least at Meijer, I have to wait for a clerk as they have to scan 4 items at random from the order. So I’m stuck there with a thumb up my ass waiting as the clerks are helping out other shoppers at self checkout. 

They scan every time?

 

That aside, sounds like a similar system here. You get the scan as you shop checkouts next to the scan at the end self checkouts, and the same staff cover both areas. Fortunately here I don't often need staff help. Last time was a high value coupon the staff had to check applied, and otherwise I only see them if I'm buying restricted items like alcohol.

[Stahlmann]

7 hours ago, Lunar River said:

making quite a lot of weird assumptions about people who decide to live rural.

I also live in a rural area, and the majority of people here are not involved in off-grid or self-sustained living. Not to mention most of the people I know who live in cities still have a car that is also insured and has to be refueled regularly...

 

Personally, I have most of my groceries delivered through Hello Fresh. I go to the city once a week to shop for other basic supplies. While self-checkout may save me around 10 minutes per week by avoiding interactions with cashiers, (if there is no wait time at the self-checkout and it goes smoothly) I believe it is an unnecessary solution to a non-existent problem.

 

A friend of mine owns a local grocery store and hates the self-checkout lane that his chain has forced into his store. Troubleshooting and assisting customers who struggle with it requires substantially more attention than just having an employee stationed at the cash register.

 

Why focus on reducing human interaction when this will make basic tasks like grocery shopping just more tedious? Just for the sake of not having to look another person in the eyes? If you're at this level of social anxiety, you should absolutely see a doctor about that.

[Lunar River]

1 hour ago, Stahlmann said:

Why focus on reducing human interaction when this will make basic tasks like grocery shopping just more tedious? Just for the sake of not having to look another person in the eyes? If you're at this level of social anxiety, you should absolutely see a doctor about that.

geez, not everything is THAT black and white, i'm not saying every time, but occasionally after a long week, i would just like to go shopping and get home without needing to interact with more people. You're acting like i can't speak to people, when that's 90% of my job.