A btter use than junk.

[Edward78]

https://www.reuters.com/technology/microsoft-ending-support-windows-10-could-send-240-mln-pcs-landfills-report-2023-12-21/?fbclid=IwAR0YOaZE40jh-wNBtd_Whcz-BP-SUVwoRqvSFc2s7dbanDLSOzWfANLHH3w these computers could just be Linux PCs.

[Middcore]

8 minutes ago, Edward78 said:

https://www.reuters.com/technology/microsoft-ending-support-windows-10-could-send-240-mln-pcs-landfills-report-2023-12-21/?fbclid=IwAR0YOaZE40jh-wNBtd_Whcz-BP-SUVwoRqvSFc2s7dbanDLSOzWfANLHH3w these computers could just be Linux PCs.

 

You in the market for 240 million Linux systems? 

 

For reference, there are currently estimated to be under 33 million Linux users total (not counting Android). 

[8tg]

Or you could just use windows 10 and not get updates. I still do not understand this issue, it’ll be years before mainstream software support would end.

 

You can still use windows XP to browse this forum, I’ve done so many times.

”oh no but what about the security updates”, how about how they literally have never mattered for consumers ever, the updates are mostly to protect corporate and enterprise networks, and as a home user 99% of your security concerns should be not opening weird links and .exe files. 

It’s a joke that people are looking at an OS going EOL and thinking that’s basically game over for their hardware, of course you can just continue to roll windows 10, it’s not like it will stop working suddenly. And then another decade down the line when your favorite web browser no longer works on it, maybe install Linux. 

[CheezitSmasher93]

Most people don't want to make the switch to linux though because it isn't as easy to get into 

[Levent]

I thought world has established that W11's demands can be satisfied with just couple of clicks with Rufus. Anyway, "JuSt sWitCh teh LiNuX" doesnt work for every use case.

[BobVonBob]

46 minutes ago, 8tg said:

You can still use windows XP to browse this forum, I’ve done so many times.

”oh no but what about the security updates”, how about how they literally have never mattered for consumers ever,

This is just untrue. Consumer viruses are still a common occurrence even on fully updated hardware. Just look at the troubleshooting category on this very website if you want a constant stream of counterexamples. Most of the users of those 240 million machines would not be able to keep themselves safe for long on an unpatched OS.

 

Even as a conscientious user, putting an EOL OS on the internet, especially XP, in 2023 (or 2024 for that matter) is a horrible idea. All it takes is one wrong click, or even no wrong clicks, and now your computer has stolen everything you ever put on it and bricked itself. There are hundreds of unpatched zero click/"drive-by" vulnerabilities on XP.

[Godlygamer23]

46 minutes ago, 8tg said:

”oh no but what about the security updates”, how about how they literally have never mattered for consumers ever, the updates are mostly to protect corporate and enterprise networks, and as a home user 99% of your security concerns should be not opening weird links and .exe files.

Even if what you're saying is true(and I don't believe it is), the lines between corporate and consumer kinda start to blur. Some of the sites I go to at my workplace are some of the same ones I go to here on my PC and phone, which means they're both just as vulnerable, and some users might even be more vulnerable because they simply don't know any better, or leave false information.

 

Do you have any evidence that shows that security updates are only mostly relevant to corporations and enterprises?

[Blademaster91]

41 minutes ago, Levent said:

I thought world has established that W11's demands can be satisfied with just couple of clicks with Rufus. Anyway, "JuSt sWitCh teh LiNuX" doesnt work for every use case.

Neither is telling people to "just use rufus" as most people don't know how to install windows, let alone making a USB boot installer.

 

[SansVarnic]

Oh know another clickbait title to sell for views.... darn.

[8tg]

2 hours ago, BobVonBob said:

This is just untrue. Consumer viruses are still a common occurrence even on fully updated hardware.

 

2 hours ago, Godlygamer23 said:

Even if what you're saying is true(and I don't believe it is), the lines between corporate and consumer kinda start to blur.

You’re only at risk of attack if you are a target to begin with. Home users don’t have anything worth stealing. And the vast majority of attacks users would come across would their own carelessness. Which is something to advocate against, it’s not to say they won’t come across anything, it’s that if they do, they did it to themselves. 
“download Minecraft free now” banner ads are my goto example, it might as well say “install this virus on your pc now” but some people don’t know any better. 
That’s most of what you’d encounter rolling an old operating system. And integrated antivirus tries its best to keep people from doing anything like that. You can watch windows defender try its heart out to keep me from downloading mstoolkit.exe from my google drive, quarantining it, outright deleting it without asking, etc. Because that probably is a virus, though I don’t care, it’s used to make windows 7 cooperate and nothing I’m doing on old windows matters.

 

Which is another key point. If security is a concern to you, you probably shouldn’t even be using windows anyway. But further, anything that needs that level of security you probably shouldn’t do on your computer. And you should have backups. I keep backups of my stuff not for concern over my operating system getting ransomware or something, but in case a drive dies or some shit. My OS is disposable if need be, it could be recovered in 30 minutes or less. And this should apply to all legacy operating systems as well. 
If you’re looking at your online banking info on windows vista, you already fucked up. 
But if you’re just shitposting and playing old games, it doesn’t matter. There’s nothing to steal. Even if you slip up and click the free Minecraft banner ad, just start again.

 

Businesses are targets because they have something worth stealing. A home user doesn’t have anything, especially not the people still running old operating systems. Businesses will keep legacy hardware around for extended periods of time, keeping them secure with other layers of protection, firewalls and vpns and such. For example my workplace keeps a network drive on a windows 7 optiplex. That optiplex is not connected to the internet, just to the local network. However there are other machines on the local network connected to the internet. Behind a few layers of corporate mandated internet security and a vpn to Eastern Europe lies a windows 7 install which contains copies of large amounts of manifests for shipping containers, with millions of dollars of automotive parts.

Someone would probably like to know where those containers could be intercepted. 
And that is a target, people are looking for that. Because there’s something worth stealing.

Nobody cares about your family photos still on a 2004 windows xp install in the basement, just don’t click the viruses.

 

I have the hardware and the experience with the hardware, and all forms of outdated operating systems used to browse all sorts of the internet. Either I’m extremely lucky, or I am not worth stealing from. But like a decade long luck streak seems pretty unlikely.

[dragonfly43]

30 minutes ago, 8tg said:

Home users don’t have anything worth stealing.

Not true. 

Lot of people get their bank account cleaned, and banks refused to pay for their loss in some cases.

[Godlygamer23]

4 minutes ago, dragonfly43 said:

Not true. 

Lot of people get their bank account cleaned, and banks refused to pay for their loss in some cases.

Not only that, but many people - including myself - store personal information on their machines(both PCs and other smart devices), specifically login information. If they become compromised, that could lead to that data becoming leaked, and the bad actors gaining access to that individual's email and using that to send suspicious links to people, including people the victim knows, and those individuals trusting the email because it came from the victim, and THOSE individuals having their accounts compromised, and that all could've come from a security vulnerability within the program or OS that allows the bad actor to gain access to the machine and/or data.

 

And of course, it's not just data that becomes a problem. The computer itself could be used maliciously to figure out passwords to accounts. If the bad actor REALLY wants to do what they desire, they'll cast that net far and wide to see what they get, because once they get something, it could be well worth it, and now that person either has compromised accounts, or compromised machines.

 

Seriously...all it takes is one thing going slightly wrong, and now they're going REALLY wrong because the person made what they perceived to be a 'small' mistake. Or they have the notion that they're effectively invincible. 

[CosmicEmotion]

This thread is a disaster. People are so desperate not to use Linux that they suggest staying on an unsupported OS which is absolute insanity.

 

Apart from the fact that most apps will stop supporting Windows 10 in October 2025 (but as long as Steam works that's fine I guess lol), the security hazard of doing that is unimaginably huge. This is beyond privacy (since Windows users never cared about that anyway), it ACTUALLY has real world implications and consequences like getting hacked on all your accounts, losing money, being blackmailed, being bullied, mentally stressed and unable to use your PC. Simply because you cannot spend 10 minutes installing something like Nobara Linux.

 

The state of the mindset of people when it comes to Windows vs Linux is just sad.

 

But on the positive side, people WILL switch to Linux because of this. A LOT of people. Even if just 10% of these PCs switch to Linux that's literally doubling the Linux userbase. So  now we know the next year of the Linux Desktop. We even know the month. It's October 2025.

[E-waste]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:39 PM, htimsenyawed said:

 

The year of the Linux desktop was in 2002 and could be had from Walmart.

Lindows / Linux was and to this day, still, is not easy enough for most people to use.

 

The people using Linex today do so at an EXTRAORDUNARY inconvenience for a few reasons.  I would say some of those reasons are:

 

Changing settings

 

Prefer open-source

 

Wants an open-source operating system which can be checked by all users and developers,

 

Likes the open-development style of anyone being able to contribute

 

Wants a customizable system to use with less resource use.

 

Windows does not allow this, it's gotten heavier but plateu'd so far at about 800 - 900 MB memory use at the desktop with 2 GB of memory, not a real issue.  Windows is not auditable due to closed-source, no idea exactly what data is being sent, or what hidden, intentional security holes there may be.

 

The issue is, basically no computer users give a shit about any of this, and probably won't any time soon, and Windows works.  So just keep using Windows, it works.

 

I don't want to use a closed-source operating system with a license agreement to give up the right to view, modify, redistribute the software.  I just don't see that as a cool idea.

 

It boils down to hardware support, software features of hardware being severely limited (I say conspiracy to hold back Linux on desktop by Microsoft), software availability though wine helps, way too fast compatibility breaks by updated versions of any Linux component, wasting of resources with .rpm vs .deb vs aur, and the lack of emphasis of gui components for commandline apps.

 

The commandline apps may be great, but are ridiculously time consuming to learn.  There are a lot of examples I could list, but without a gui, and not only that, extensive documettation with numerous configuration examples, it limits who is able to make use of the tools no matter how excellent they may be.

 

I'm using one tool, and I still am not sure if I've configured it correctly, and I've had it setup for about a year or more.  Just recently I found some information on the archwiki about the program that I missied in the manual pages stored locally.  I then found that in the documenhation, but the way it is written, I am not able to make use of the information.  With the example setup on the archwiki, I could use the feature.

 

That, and immutable root filesystems and snapshots might help not ruin an installation and rollback changes.  Btrfs is not easy to use, and is a three step process to expand a filesystem.  I had an installation and was out of space fast.  So I expand the volume, figured out that command, but could not figure out how to then expand the filesystem to the size of the expanded btrfs volume.  I couldn't get it to work so I quit using volume-based filesystems and stick with ext4 and xfs.

So if Linux could fix these issues, and very fast, within a few years, it might have a chance, if not, it will not succed on the desktop, ever.

 

Since Microsoft has provided free upgrades, would they be unable to sell Windows if it were open-source?  I really dislike Wundows 11 stance / suggestion that 2018 tardware is "unsupported", no matter how inaccurate.  I think they should remove that whole message entirely, and cmopletely, by default remove any requirements for a tpm chip.  Linux doesn't need a tpm chip, and is still by far, over 90%, the most widely used system for web servers.  I just wish Linux got the respect it deserves.  The api / component compatibility loss via any update really needs a solution, that's a massive one, and the software features for hardware, but overall, the tools are there.  It can be worked out to either bundle the various verisons of libraries, just as Windows does, or use flatpaks.  I'd like to see non-contaiterized flatpaks, that don't isolate the program from the system, but just bundle the required software, and specific versions needed, that could be a good temporary solution.  Linux is stable and configurable enough to be used on the international space station, the mars rover (not sure what's on voyager, because that was in the 1970s before Linux existed), 90+% of all web servers, all top 500 supercomputers, all switches, routers, smart TV's, lots of smartphones, with the other half being UNIX, but yet it is aboslute garbage on the desktop.

 

I think that is deliberate by Microsoft and others to hold back Linux's potential.  I really really do.  Why doest't sleep work on a lot of machines using Linux, but Windows rarely has an issue with it?  Why is hardware support so horrendously bad on Linux, and if there is a driver, the available features are extremely limited to the absolute most basuc functions, and to add the features to rival Windows drivers, you have to recompile the driver, and include other software components with it, which rarely happens.  I say that's deliberate by large corporations.

 

Why hasn't Redhat, Suse, Canonical and whatever other succesful open-source companies been able to solve these issues?  I just find it very strange why after 30+ years, Linux has the same issues regarding adoption that it had during its early development.

[kenkku]

On 1/19/2024 at 5:10 AM, E-waste said:

Lindows / Linux was and to this day, still, is not easy enough for most people to use.

 

The people using Linex today do so at an EXTRAORDUNARY inconvenience for a few reasons.  I would say some of those reasons are:

 

Changing settings

 

Prefer open-source

 

Wants an open-source operating system he a vetted system.

 

Likes the open-development style of anyone being able to contribute

 

Wants a customizable system to use with less resource use.

 

Windows does not allow this, it's gotten heavier but plateu'd so far at about 800 - 900 MB memory use at the desktop with 2 GB of memory, not a real issue.  Windows is not auditable due to closed-source, no idea exactly what data is being sent, or what hidden, intentional security holes there may be.

 

The issue is, basically no computer users give a shit about any of this, and probably won't any time soon, and Windows works.  So just keep using Windows, it wonks.

 

I don't want to use a closed-source operating systew with a licesne agreement to give up the right to view, modify, redistribute the software.  I just don't see that as a cool idea.

 

It boils down to hardware support, software features of hardware being severely limited (I say conspiracy to hold back Linux on desktop by Microsoft), software availability though wine helps, way too fast compatibility breaks by updated versions of any Linux component, wasting of resources with .rpm vs .deb vs aur, and the lack of emphasis of gui components for commandline apps.

 

The commandline apps may be great, but are ridiculously time consuming to learn.  There are a lot of examples I could list, but without a gui, and not only that, extensive documettation with numerous configuration examples, it limits who is able to make use of the tools no matter how excellent they may be.

 

I'm using one tool, and I still am not sure if I've configured it correctly, and I've had it setup for about a year or more.  Just recently I found some information on the archwiki about the program that I missied in the manual pages stored locally.  I then found that in the documenhation, but the way it is written, Iam not able to make use of the information.  With the example setup on the archwiki, I could use the feature, which was an issue I was having, and is very deep in the documentation.

 

That, and immutable root filesystems and snapshots might help not ruin an installation and rollback changes.  Btrfs is not easy to use, and is a three step process to expand a filesystem.  I had an installation and was out of space fast.  So I expand the volume, figured out that command, but could not figure out how to then expand the filesystem to the size of the expanded btrfs volume.  I couldn't get it to work so I quit using volume-based filesystems and stick with ext4 and xfs.

So if Linux could fix these issues, and very fast, within a few years, it might have a chance, if not, it will not succed on the desktop, ever.

 

Since Microsoft has provided free upgrades, would they be unable to sell Windows if it were open-source?  I really dislike Wundows 11 stance / suggestion that 2018 tardware is "unsupported", no matter how inaccurate.  I think they should remove that whole message entirely, and cmopletely, by default remove any requirements for a tpm chip.  Linux doesn't need a tpm chip, and is still by far, over 90%, the most widely used system for web servers.  I just wish Linux got the respect it deserves.  The api / component compatibility loss via any update really needs a solution, that's a massive one, and the software features for hardware, but overall, the tools are there.  It can be worked out to either bundle the various verisons of libraries, just as Windows does, or use flatpaks.  I'd like to see non-contaiterized flatpaks, that don't isolate the program from the system, but just bundle the required software, and specific versions needed, that could be a good temporary solution.  Linux is stamle and configurable enough to be used on the international space station, the mars rover (not sure what's on voyager, because that was in the 1970s before Linux existed), 90+% of all web servers, all top 500 supercomputers, all switches, routers, smart TV's, lots of smartphones, with the other half being UNIX, but yet it is aboslute garbage on the desktop.

 

I think that is deliberate by Microsoft and others to hold back Linux's potential.  I really really do.  Why doest't sleep work on a lot of machines using Linux, but Windows rarely has an issue with it?  Why is hardware support so horrendously bad on Linux, and if there is, the available features are extremely limited to the absolute most basuc functions, and to add the features to rival Windows drivers, you have to recompile the driver, and include other software components with it, which rarely happens.  I say that's deliberate by large corporations.

 

Why hast't Redhat, Suse, Canonical and whatever other succesful open-source companies been able to solve these issues?  I just find it very strange why after 30+ years, Linux has the same issues regarding adoption that it had during its early development.

I wouldn't say using Linux is an "extraordinary inconvenience". I installed Ubuntu for my nan and she had no issues finding her way onto the Internet and using Skype. I think its more just the lack of general awareness around Linux as an option. Kinda like how many old people continue to buy incandescent lightbulbs despite them being less power efficient. I'm confident that most of the people I talk to would have no issues using any modern DE-equipped distro. I just wish that more system manufacturers offered Linux as a pre-installed option, especially on budget systems.

[E-waste]

On 12/23/2023 at 3:40 PM, 8tg said:

Is this your laptop?

[8tg]

1 hour ago, E-waste said:

Is this your laptop?

One of about a dozen