What do we do now?

[sAOI]

What a mess.

 

I think Steve really nutshelled a lot of issues that, to most people that have been watching LTT for awhile, has become more evident. Issues that LTT knew about, and may have been addressing... but addressing in a half-assed manner.

 

Errors in videos happen. They do. But it was the number of errors, the consistency of the errors that was noticeable. Linus and Luke touched on this in the last WAN show, and started spitballing ideas. Great. But this should have been a much bigger internal conversation much sooner. If the accuracy reviews are suffering, and suffering frequently, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your process.

 

This is probably compounded by their production rate of release. It feels like they've doubled down on quantity, and as a result quality has suffered. Noticeably. Linus' own staff have gone on camera, and stated that they find the rate that they need to produce videos is something they have an issue with. I recall someone saying that they're not proud of what they produce, they produce it for the sake of their metrics. LMG produces something like 20-25 videos across all channels per week. Even with 130 staff, not all those staff are involved in production. That's an incredible work load to maintain, while also ensuring what you produce is of high quality.

 

The Billet Labs situation also highlights a number of issues. The first is, obviously, the water block itself getting sold off. And, yes, an auction is still a sale. Dancing around the terminology is worst kind of semantics. This was a fundamental failure in workflow processes. Why was a product review item that was on loan from someone ever coming into contact with items that were LMG property that were not to be retained? I'm not completely clear on the timeline of the back-and-forth between LMG and Billet, so I won't comment too much on that.

The second issue is the review itself. You have a water block meant for one GPU, used on another GPU that the block isn't meant for, and your conclusion upon performance being subpar is that this is a bad product that nobody should buy. And you doubled-down, and refused to test with the GPU it *is* meant for, because it would cost $100, $200, $300, $500 dollars more of staff time. You've just spent seven figures (maybe even eight, at this point) on buying and building out Labs. $500 to ensure that you release an accurate review using accurate testing methodology (like using the correct GPU) shouldn't have been a conversation. Instead, it undermines the *entire point of Labs*. This is the literal definition of penny wise, pound foolish. You spend millions of dollars to improve your reputation for testing accuracy, but a reluctance to spend $500 severely harms that reputation. That response from Linus was baffling.

 

Third, is apologies. Linus has released a few apologies that have come across as... tone deaf. I don't necessarily think he *is* tone-deaf, but rather that he responds with emotion. That a criticism of LMG is a criticism of Linus. The Trust Me Bro thing was one. While I could see his side of things, it feels like he took the criticism of a lack of official warranty as a personal attack. The response from Linus after the GN video dropped was also... again, it felt emotional, and again it felt like he was taking valid criticism as a personal attack. The video response "What Do We Do Now" was... holy crap. Not good. I realize there are certain things and certain humour that are part of the core LMG video identity. But this was the one video and the one time time where the jokes and product plugs were just tone-deaf.

The !two! fake throwaways to the "message from our sponsor", the couple of Colton-gets-fired jokes, Nick plugging the LTT store (no, somebody did *not* need to say it), the actual plug for an upcoming screwdriver iteration, the sixty nine joke... I didn't hate the D-Brand comment as a coda to the video, but it also wasn't necessary.

 

Linus has always seemed like someone who not only wears his heart on his sleeve, but also speaks with an earnestness and a passion that is a big reason why I've followed LMG for a decade. The problem is, this isn't a small channel being run out of someone's house any more. LMG is not just Linus anymore. This is a corporation, with over 100 employees, subsidiaries, and multiple locations. There is absolutely a viewerbase that still sees LMG as a small, plucky little Youtube channel with a handful of employees. But to many... many... more, it's a big company. It will be judged as a big company. Are those judgements always fair? No. Are they never fair? Also, no.

 

I still want to see that earnestness and that passion from Linus. I still want to see a bit of that heart-on-the sleeve. But LMG is at the point where an initial, emotional response is rarely going to improve a situation.

 

As for the Madison situation... the allegations are horrifying, and suggest an exceedingly toxic work culture. I have concerns. Lots of concerns. But we all also know very little beyond the allegation. I'll wait and see, I hope that they're not true, and I hope that the investigation is both honest and thorough.

 

I love LMG. Their videos have been something I've enjoyed for over a decade. Their aspirations with Labs are admirable. But there are some fundamental warts that need addressing. And I really... really... think that they need a proper PR person or PR training. I'm not one, but a single watch through of the accountability video was enough to see that there were fundamental problems with that video. So many people spoke in that video, so many people likely wrote, edited, and filmed that video... and nobody thought to point out some of the fundamental flaws in the messaging.

 

I hope that change... real change is coming. I hope that the emphasis is put back on quality over quantity. If it means a video costs $500 more, or is delayed by a day or two or a week, but a substantially better and more accurate end product is the result, then delay the video or spend the $500. Please.

 

LMG needs real PR help. Not a spin doctor. But someone who can take a look at something like the events currently occurring, take a critical look at the messaging, and catch any further gaffes before they happen.

 

 

[lscott05]

1 hour ago, Floor said:

I like your videos. I don't even care.

Should care a bit, they pride themselves on good info and havnt been delivering, and the madison situation is really bad. I will prolly still watch, but they need to do whats right.

[SmokersLungs]

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this, haven't posted on these forums in quite a while. Haven't actually watched LTT or really been on the internet past few years. 

 

I'm sure everyone knows what's going on with Linus, but hear me out.

 

He's just a man. We are all human, we all make mistakes. I understand that given his position it's not good, but I feel like everyone needs to understand that things can be fixed you know. Everyone I see talk about this is saying how it's so horrible and really shows what kind of person he his. Bullshit. Honestly. I've said things that I didn't even realize was a mistake until months or even years after. I think that perspective is a very powerful thing and we will really never understand his actions, it's not like he has bad intent. I can't help but feel like there's just this strong negativizes about him now. He does all this good stuff, then does one thing wrong and it's the worst thing that could happen.

 

Just put yourself in Linus' shoes. I'm sure his job, or his life isn't easy. Everyone has their problems; so sitting here saying how wrong he is and what a bad person he is, isn't doing any good.

 

Just my two cents.

[mdk777]

10 minutes ago, lscott05 said:

Should care a bit, they pride themselves on good info and havnt been delivering, and the madison situation is really bad. I will prolly still watch, but they need to do whats right.

Yeah, people like drunk hobbo vids also.

That doesn't make them accurate or ethical. 

[ReverendTechie]

7 minutes ago, lscott05 said:

Should care a bit, they pride themselves on good info and havnt been delivering, and the madison situation is really bad. I will prolly still watch, but they need to do whats right.

To be clear, the Madison situation is concerning and the IMPLICATION is what could be "bad".  I've seen a lot of people say "the situation is bad" but all we have, at present, is Madison's Twitter/X thread and a whole mess of conjecture/assumptions. If I'm missing something, let me know. However, like I said in my last post, the hyperbole surround "this is bad" is far outpacing what anyone knows of the situation, at least outside of Madison and LMG staff.

 

Personally, I'm standing by my previous comment that "the ball is in LMG's court". This includes, obviously, how they handle addressing allegations of sexual misconduct. The community is also going to need to acknowledge/accept that this isn't the government or some public official who "owes us an explanation". Depending on who all was involved and what other details may exist which we are not privy to, the public may not be entitled to every juicy subplot of the greater narrative. Saying nothing would be very wrong, but divulging everything would probably almost be inappropriate. Any response, to either extreme, will no-doubt lead to online outrage akin to what we're seeing now from the dozens/hundreds commenting without much in terms of objective information. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, sercasti said:

Publishing a video highlighting every error and mistake from LTT without calling Linus first was a jerk move by GN, and it means they wanted to create this crappy situation.

So you agree that Linus video about Billet Lab product was a much worse jerk move. That's... interesting. Do you need some time to think?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ReHWolution said:

Yup. Like it or not, integrity in journalism doesn't exclude a "journalist" (last time I checked he doesn't have a degree, therefore the quotes) reaching out to the involved party. That's the worst part of it all: he's being called once again a "Tech Jesus" but integrity is far from how he behaved. Once again, Billet Labs' situation is bad as it is, but calling out mistakes in videos charts, that ultimately don't change the review outcome (except for 2 notable exception, that are the C2077 result with the 4090 and the Noctua coolers), is some kind of childish attack on the notes of "hey look, our videos are better and we have less people than you".

90K subscribers more on their YT channel, 2 videos in 2 days totaling 6 million views, both in their top 10 in terms of views, their patreon gaining +250 subs in just a couple of days (with revenue going up by 9% as shown https://graphtreon.com/creator/gamersnexus), this ain't integrity talking. This is a low blow because he (and HUB) got offended by Tim's comment regarding their methodology for reviews.

Integrity in journalism is not "reaching to the involved party". That's why there are lots of journalist masterpieces related to drug dealers, criminal gangs, corrupt politicians... If you don't understand where may be necessary to reach out to be "fair" in an article/editorial piece it's just a problem with your judgement and lack of interest in real integrity.

[Guest]

On 8/16/2023 at 5:32 AM, LUCRETIA said:

LMG went from family business to a multi million corporation but kept the family business mentality. Linus fails to see that he is the villain, not the oppressed.

 

I stand with former female employees of LMG.

I stand with Sarah Butt, Nicole Yuen, Emily Young, Maria the thumbnail designer, current female employees of LMG (that have appeared on camera)

[iLikeBananas]

1 minute ago, myashypaintbox said:

I stand with Sarah Butt, Nicole Yuen, Emily Young, current female employees of LMG (that have appeared on camera)

Emily seems to be doing fine. And haven't heard any complaints from Sarah either. Are you trying to force them to take a stance against LMG?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, iLikeBananas said:

Emily seems to be doing fine. And haven't heard any complaints from Sarah either. Are you trying to force them to take a stance against LMG?

No, you misinterpreted, the original comment I was replying to was taking a stand for former female employees of LMG (just say Madison). If it is such a toxic work place for females as Madison makes it seem, how about the other female employees who have had much longer tenures at LMG? Sarah's last name is Butt, you know a lot of Butt jokes going on. Lastly, I just don't think Yvonne, as a mother of 2 daughters, would brush those kinds of allegations under the rug. 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, SmokersLungs said:

then does one thing wrong and it's the worst thing that could happen.

He didn't just do "one thing wrong".

 

 

*Disclaimer, I am talking about the issues at LMG with their testing, ethics, and so on. This post is not about the sexual harassment allegations*

 

 

The list of issues with LMG and Linus is quite extensive, at least in my opinion. I am very surprised by the things people chose to latch on to after watching the Gamers Nexus video. For some reason, people got really focused on the ways LMG wronged Billet, when that was in my opinion just one of the many issues caused by how LMG operates and how Linus behaves. Not just in this particular case, but in several cases over the years.

 

 

I have been sharing my concerns with Linus (and users on this forum) for years, and the way he has historically responded to me has been to lash out, be dismissive and insult me, and his fans have always backed him no matter what. I raised a lot of the issues brought to light in the Gamers Nexus video way back when he first announced the lab. Sadly, it seems like very few of my concerns have been addressed, which is partially why we are in this situation today.

 

 

One of the things I dislike the most about this whole situation is how people have reacted. It's almost like it's such a complex topic that peoples' brains get overloaded and they choose one thing to latch on to and get hyper-focused on that. It seems like in this case a lot of people decided that the Billet thing was the thing that was simple enough to judge in black-and-white terms, so that's what blew up (initially, I don't feel like weighing in on the Madison thing). 

 

 

What's even more concerning than the focus on specific issues is the fervent defense of LMG and Linus. The negative comments directed at Madison and the backlash against Gamers Nexus for their (in my opinion reasonable and well-made) video are disheartening. Blaming the messenger instead of engaging with the message is counterproductive if the goal is to make LMG a better company.

 

 

 

There is a large portion of people who are very eager to jump in and do severe mental gymnastics to try and spin fuck-ups into something positive or how Linus has zero responsibility and never did anything wrong. I can understand why that is happening. Over the years I've read a lot of people on this forum say how Linus is their hero. How he is the reason they got into the career they now have. I can't imagine how painful it must be to hear others say that your idol who got you into the position you are in now is a terrible person (note: others are saying this, not me). I completely understand how such a confrontation could cause someone to dig their heels in, go into rejection-mode and then launch a "counterattack".

But that is the wrong way to handle criticism. Likewise, the way Linus handles criticism, by constantly shifting blame, gaslighting people, nitpicking details, and saying everyone is lying except himself, is awful too. Truly awful. It should not be condoned.

 

 

I feel like you are partially part of the problem by being dismissive and defending bad behavior. Nobody has said that you need to be perfect. However, this is not a new issue. This is not something Linus was unaware of. This is well documented, and has been going on for years, and the way Linus has reacted to this has been terrible. It shows a lack of understanding and it shows a lack of integrity, just like several other controversies he has been involved in. The only reason why it has been going on this long is because people have been dismissing it and defending Linus from criticism, as if he has been perfect. If he isn't perfect, which I think we can all agree he isn't, then it shouldn't be an issue to point out that he sometimes does things the wrong way or act in bad ways.

 

 

Linus is not your friend, nor is LMG a company you should trust. They are at the end of the day a company trying to make money, just like Nvidia, AMD, Intel, Tesla, Apple, Microsoft, and so on. Treat LMG as any other company, and treat Linus like some random CEO or whatever. 

That might sound harsh and like me saying "the anti-LMG side is wrong for defending him!", but my point is actually that people need to calm down on both sides and look at this with rational eyes. Would you be this upset or defensive if something similar had happened at a company you have never heard of? Probably not, or at least I hope you wouldn't. So calm down and treat this like any company and any exec fucking up. Don't behave differently just because it's LMG and Linus. Let's all approach this situation rationally and maintain a consistent perspective.

 

It's also important to remember that this isn't a war. You do not have to pick sides and "ally" yourself with some group of people. It is also important to not view the opposite "enemy" side as a single hivemind that things exactly the same way. Not everyone who criticizes Linus thinks the same way, nor does everyone who defends him think the exact same thing. I probably ended up categorizing and making sweeping generations of the various "sides" in this "war" in this post, it is very easy to fall into that trap, but it is something we should avoid.

 

 

 

This will be my first and last comment on this whole situation unless something new comes up.

I haven't watched LMG for ages, but I might actually give them a chance once they are back from their hiatus. I hope that they really take this opportunity to change for the better. As I said earlier, I have a long list of things I want to see changed at LMG; and this is the first indication I have ever gotten that they might actually do some of those changes I want to see, and improve.

However, I will be looking at their every move through a very critical lens in order to determine if they have actually done anything to fix their issues, and I plan on giving them constructive (and in my opinion fair) criticism so that they have a chance to improve. My fear is that this is all just lip-service to try and calm the angry mob down, and then they will go back to the same way they were before.

 

 

*again, reminder that I have chosen to ignore the Madison situation here, I am just talking about their video production, testing methodology, ethics and so on*

[Zando_]

37 minutes ago, SmokersLungs said:

He's just a man.

GN's criticism is aimed squarely at LMG, the company, and issues that LMG, the company, has. I haven't seen GN say that nobody is allowed to make mistakes, they simply pointed out that mistakes were made, are continuing to be made, and that the company should look at ways to stop those mistakes. 

[mMontana]

4 hours ago, BigFatTeddy said:

You don't say. So you're implying that they're not only regrouping but this is also a form of damage-control? Come on! That is outrageous!

It's a possibility... Damage control is what corporations do.

[yeetdabmanyeet]

4 hours ago, hansthegerman said:

I think they at least could've removed Luke's joke, that should've been possible to do.

Yeah completely fair, after Madison's allegations came out leaving it in when it's easy to remove a 5 second bit seems a lil... bad timing

[DingBat92]

With so many mistakes in videos on top of so many other things mentioned, I don't know how or what it'll take for people to 'trust me bro' after all this. When the 'apology' video had sex jokes in it

[iLikeBananas]

I mean, 69 is barely a sex joke these days with how mainstream it is.

[focuspuller]

Has anyone addressed the fact that there are actionable legal issues on the horizon?

[Linus The SA Shusher]

Linus: We don't have money to waste… I can't spend $500 of time checking something…

Also, Linus: Let's make this minecraft streamer a super expensive $10,000+ custom-made PC. 

Linus, if you are going to lie and deflect all criticism against you, at least read up on how to nullify an accusation. 

 

----

I hope Madison and now, Emily, are going to be okay moving forward, and I am extremely worried about the latter given what we know behind the scenes now. 

[BiudreuN]

 

[BigFatTeddy]

1 hour ago, mMontana said:

It's a possibility... Damage control is what corporations do.

That irony just passed you by without striking a chord, right?

[MaxHeadroom75]

not the point, everyone deserves respect.  that is all

[mMontana]

13 minutes ago, BigFatTeddy said:

That irony just passed you by without striking a chord, right?

I don't speak english as first language. I had a hunch, but not that big.

[Ethnod]

Not that you guys need the feedback, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in. 

 

For perspective, I've been a viewer of, generally most LLT videos, since I stumbled onto the channel a long ass time ago (unboxing at the fountain days, I actually was researching the PC pre-unboxing cartoon linus, but not by much). 

Since the I've just simply watched most of the videos, unless you are covering something I've zero interest in, and as I consider myself ae tech nerd, that means most videos. 

In saying that, I've been mostly a passive viewer. I rarely comment, I just consume mostly. I've also been a fanboy if I'm honest with myself. All of this stuff going on has had me re-examine my perspective on LTT videos and LMG am I'm realising now that I have been a fanboy, I've not been aggressively defending you online but if has had another effect I'll get into below. 

 

I first found out about the controversy was this video, as I'm not on the forms socially, or regularly (I work about 70ish hours a week plus commuting and I've a young son, plus I'm in my 40's, I just don't have the time), your video was the first I saw of it. Well ok, I saw the GN video come up in my feed but I was supposed to get back to it and only did today. 

After watching your video I saw Phillip DeFranco cover it and today I watched the two GN videos on the topic. 

 

My conclusion is that Gamers Nexus is mostly correct (except for the auctioning off thing, they know what Linus meant, it was not sold for profit but auctioned odd for charity, and it's a fair distinction to want to make, Steve should have been a bit more understanding there) and I can see that you guys recognise that too. 

You are all clearly putting your heads together now to try to remedy the issues going forward, and that is commendable. 

 

Thinking back now, I can see the errors you guys were making but j understand why. 

 

If anyone in LMG cares specifically about my suggestions or requests:

• Any short firm, quick firm video should be reshot or be dubbed before released, there should be no expectations here. As an example, these are ones I listen to while driving, working or doing general chores and do not watch, thry are almost always in the background. In fact some of them I consume on a podcast app. 
• Technical reviews, any graphic card reviews and the like, where there is a graph, unless there is an extremely good reason for it, the same cards and same colours should be used. If there was a testing fail, they should still be on the graph but noted as to what happened. Too many times I've seen one graph with one set of cards, games or set of results to have another similar graph have a difference between the stuff listed. It's jarring and makes it much harder to compare to the fly. As an example, in the (I believe, but I might be mixing up my videos) the AMD cpu review, the comparison graphs changed at one point, of on the cpu's I was using as my grounding perspective so I could compare to my experience was not in some of the graphs and I lost my perspective. 
• Corrections should be editted in, there not possible (or where it will take too much time) the video should be taken down and re-uploaded. A video staying up with an annotated correction should be the exception, should required director level approved. Seems mad, but making it such a high standard will raise overall standards. 
• Replies to controversial topics, public communications from personalities/companies or events should be approved by 2x senior managers from different departments or at a director level. 
• Consider hiring a public relations person, but have it only be part of their job. I don't want to see the WAN show or the general honesty change. Or maybe have someone in the business team deal with all official company responses. Linus is just too emotional and passionate about the company and community. Honestly I think I'd be the same in his shoes. 
• If technical results are off by too much this should be investigated and, if needs be, the video delayed. This will help catch mistakes.
• Allow the writers power to put a video on delay, if they are not happy with the content, they should be able to put the video on hold, pull it from the schedule and spend more time reviewing the content. 

I feel a little bit (but honestly just a tiny bit) disappointed with the errors. Seems, l like you have said, errors due to self imposed pressures and goals. But I feel that parts of the community (a part I squarely place myself in) have let you down by either staying quiet or defending you when errors have presented themselves. I will start posting on the forum on videos that I'm unhappy with or where I see errors. 

 

In saying that, you still have my love, loyalty and respect. Linus and Luke have shown themselves to be men of character, integrity an honesty going all the way back to the start. I've been following the WAN show since the garage (linus chewing on camera ) days and I feel I know you (and I know I don't). I have never missed a WAN show, either live or vod (a tough ask give I live in Ireland ... christ, how many hours is that? ) so I have heard your opinions on do many topics. 

To further that, the LMG staff have, in almost all cases, all shown themselves to be people of character, honestly and integrity and they have done nothing but build on the trust that was already there. 

 

Things that you should know:

• Having someone say that a company (in this case Asus) generally produces good products is not an issue. It's a good statement, it's generally true and just seems to be high horse vs from Steve. I actually think it's a good comment to make from time to time, if some companies are known as generally reliable and trustworthy, maybe other companies will aspire to that? 
• Having relationships with Noctua, Framework and others is not a bad thing in my eyes. Although maybe you should have a internal person not connected to those companies review decisions to ensure some kind of check for bias. 

Re GN, so there is no confusion, I hold them in the highest regard. They are professional, have the highest standards, have integrity and are extremely competent. I agree with most of what they said in both videos on the subject, but some of their points of comments/points of view seem overly harsh and don't give the LMG staff credit for just being caught up in their own orbit, blinded by it. 

 

Lastly

• You need to reduce the number of videos that you publish weekly. I'd like to see a backlog of videos that are ready to go, finished and waiting. At least a couple of weeks worth (I know that will take time) so they can ve reviewed and analysed properly. Obviously time sensitive ones would be excluded (product releases etc) but any project (like the nuts watercooling ones, Linus house videos, crazy fan videos and so on) could easily be part of a good backlog giving staff time to breath and taking pressure off. 
• If a company/organisation/personality is unhappy with a review AND gives details of errors, that video should be reexamined careful by someone (ideally the writer) and then someone else who was not already involved. In my place we call this 4 eyes, a second set of unrelated eyes giving it a fresh look.
• Take more time consuming ways of fixing the videos, less corrections in annotations a d more checking and editing. 
• Don't be afraid to pull a video down, fix it and re-upload it. It's really critical to do the hard thing. I know this has a negative impact on your analytics but even more reason to do it. It's the correct thing to do, it's the hard thing and it will force you to make sure it doesn't happen again. Like Like said, you have to let things fail so you can fix them. Stop the band-aids. 

[darki333]

Im pretty sure it wont get answered, but it is pretty much my only chance to get a straight answer:

 

Why wasn't GamersNexus/Steve even mentioned, or credited, since he brought the problems to your (collective LMG) and the public's attention??

 

On a more speculative note: How come the (at the very least some) questions or takes about GamersNexus being "shadowbanned" ? (There was a comment with ~2400 likes in the top for 6 hours until it disappeared into the abyss in about a 5-10 minute period - the speculative part is that it is done by someone.. , on purpose..... - also to be more clear, it is not "gone"/deleted and theoretically visible by any account, but it is behind thousands of comments, and will never be read, if not searched....) [If any more details are needed, do tell]

[iLikeBananas]

While I am fully behind LTT, I also think that it is important that LTT makes up with GamersNexus and Steve specifically. They just did their job and nothing about it was unprofessional.