Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[andreimj]

13 minutes ago, Vexenar said:

I did read through those 306 pages, and the subreddit, and the Youtube comments. 
The majority of what people are saying in those channels (and especially on the LTT forums) is that Gamers Nexus should have reached out to Linus and that it wasn't fair to confront him with the issue head on, the debate hasn't been about the issues that were raised in the video but rather about how and with which motive the video was made. 

If you look at my post history you will see that I am being critical on both GN and LMG, but the issue that I also raised is that LMG with the broader outreach in the tech space has a much bigger responsibility to make sure that content and information they release is accurate and held to industry standards. I'm honestly not sure why I am being compared to irrational hateful fans, because so far all my posts have been presenting and supporting facts and giving my opinion based on that information. 

I am a fan of LTT, LMG and Linus as a personality. That is the main reason why I am critical of the way they acted to begin with. 
If I have learned anything from watching Linus through the (decade?) at this point it's that his first reaction is his unfiltered personal view on the matter, it doesn't matter to me what the corporate response after that is, his unfiltered take is what I use because that's what he is actually thinking about the situation. 

His initial reaction in this thread was a really poor reply to the issues that were raised, and most of it was deflecting blame and promise to do better, which is a narrative he has been speaking for about two years when the first inconsistencies in videos were being addressed. So far rather than improving the quality it's gotten worse and the absolute height of it was the testing of the Billit Labs prototybe, and that's not even taken into account how that issue was handled after the video was done and dusted. 

LMG really needs to improve how they do things, and in that sense I still think the video (while having inconsistencies and the narrative being slightly questionable) was absolutely needed to force change. 

I agree with part of what you wrote. I think you're missing the fact that Linus was always open in the WAN show and acknoledged many of the point Steve made for years now. This is the Youtube game and was for years. You had to upload daily to remain relevant cuz you know....algorithm... It has gotten better recently and I'm happy that Youtubers can take a break whithout ruining their online carrier. Linus chose to do both: 1. Improve quality -build the labs (still work in progress), hire a CEO (still work in progress), stepping down (still work in progress) and 2. Still making videos at the same pace for the reasons I just stated.

 

Things are not black and white, and most of the things you've said are still arguable like the Billet labs fiasco

[TheNamesKyle]

18 minutes ago, andreimj said:

well, that a simplistic view. You can't only see the point of only side. When one continues to do this mistake the discussion is deemed pointles and counterproductive. Linus and LMG acknoledged their mistakes, now you and Steve should acknowledge yours for a change. That if it is really about truth, fairness and of course...accuracy

There is no mistake to knowledge.

 

Edit:

Also, if you think there is, like I said you are coping. There is no discussion for "mistakes" when you define them as "you were mean." GN did nothing out of the ordinary for his line of work and he was as polite/respectful as can be expected.

 

You are simply arguing nothing or the sake of being different to the public narrative. That's all I'm seeing. (You being anyone that takes an issue with GNs reporting, just fyi)

[Cooldoe]

9 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

1. GN had reasons for not contacting LMG he has tried to contact LMG in the past over things they got wrong or things that needed to be addressed, Linus ignored them, so Steve understandably didn't want to contact them.

2. GN making a video didn't cause Linus to make an emotional response, that is Linus's problem.

3. If the reason LMG are getting consistent inaccuracies in their videos is because of restructuring, then they need to slow down on video production, restructuring in the company and still rushing out videos every day doesn't excuse the kind of errors they're making.

4. GN reported on things they've been getting wrong for a long time, people on the forum have been asking for LMG to improve for years now. There is no cancel culture here, the only ones I've been seeing trying to "cancel" anyone are the angry Linus fans trying to attack GN.

5. I've seen both of the GN videos, can you point out where GN admits they manipulated facts that were already public information in their videos?

6. GN contacting LMG wouldn't have made any difference as LMG decided to deflect away from admitting they messed up.

Those aren't facts, those are twisting things to attack GN, when GN was simply the messenger here.

The issue with your statement is you only hear the issue from GN side without any consideration some of the other side valid critics on his video.

Steve want to be the harbinger of ethics so let's talk about the ethics.

 

1. Journalism 101 ethic. For critic the normal journalist courtesy is to reach out to the other party foe comment. Steve clearly disregard this.

2. Steve talk about accuracy but he somehow 'forgot' to mention that Linus did talk about the inaccurate result in the video and looking for ways to solve the issue. This is in the same Wan show that Linus talked about the mouse issue. So he is addressing it but somehow GN 'forgot'

3. Another thing that GN forgot to mention is text revision on the video is standard for most youtube creator. So he is holding lmg in much higher standard than normal. This should be disclosed.

4. Similar thing with framework bias issue. GN fail to inform that Linus already address this issue multiple times and have properly disclose this issue. Again this is industry standard on how to deal with it and Steve 'forgot' to mention

5. In regards to ASUS, using the same standard GN use on LMG they should disclose that thecreator some spat with ASUS and have issue with LMG not dropping ASUS as their sponsor

 

The biggest critic of the video is how GN try to frame the issue as small creator vs big company but as they claimed in their own video they choose to be small.

 

I think we should be objectively point out the mistake in GN videos withoutbe characterized as attack.

 

[Shlouski]

19 minutes ago, Godiwa said:

they both said so... so yeah... even if you don't think they can be friends because "insert whatever excuse that makes no sense"

 

My opinion does not align with yours so any rebuttal I make is non sense, does this apply only to me or to anyone that disagrees with you? 

 

Winston Churchill

Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.

[hmfaysal]

21 minutes ago, Vexenar said:

I have some issues with the way the facts were presented in the video, and the overall narrative, but I do believe the video had to be presented the way it was to force change in LMG before it's too late. It's not like there have not been issues with GN in the past but (for the most part) those issues were solved in a reasonable time frame that I am happy with. 

I can't personally imagine Steve released this video without taking into account what the possible backlash would be from the LTT fanbase and the entire tech community as a whole would be, de-monitizing the video in that sense seems to have been in good faith to paint the picture that he wasn't releasing it in a malicious way. Whether that's true remains to be seen because the Billit Labs issue he brought forward seems to have attracted some inconsistencies in terms of e-mail traffic and whether GN was aware that Billit Labs gave their prototype to LMG. 

We'll see I guess. 

That's the better part, we can simply wait to see. Also Steve calculated wrong.

Because Steve just ran out of "Holier-Than-Thou" bullets. We all know Steve made some great strides in the tech scene, calling out bullshit from vendors, making them make amends. The only issue is, companies, pc parts manufacturers will claim foul the moment Steve points out somethings. Companies are soulless authorities, and Steve just made the LTT community divisive, which is way way larger than what we he currently has. He also lost a friend in the scene in this process, who is backing him up now? Hardware Unboxed? Nope, they will do their thing as they are the little channel now. 

In a dog eat dog world Steve just created, what kind of dog Steve gonna be? In a bun with Mustard?

[hmfaysal]

2 minutes ago, Cooldoe said:

The issue with your statement is you only hear the issue from GN side without any consideration some of the other side valid critics on his video.

Steve want to be the harbinger of ethics so let's talk about the ethics.

 

1. Journalism 101 ethic. For critic the normal journalist courtesy is to reach out to the other party foe comment. Steve clearly disregard this.

2. Steve talk about accuracy but he somehow 'forgot' to mention that Linus did talk about the inaccurate result in the video and looking for ways to solve the issue. This is in the same Wan show that Linus talked about the mouse issue. So he is addressing it but somehow GN 'forgot'

3. Another thing that GN forgot to mention is text revision on the video is standard for most youtube creator. So he is holding lmg in much higher standard than normal. This should be disclosed.

4. Similar thing with framework bias issue. GN fail to inform that Linus already address this issue multiple times and have properly disclose this issue. Again this is industry standard on how to deal with it and Steve 'forgot' to mention

5. In regards to ASUS, using the same standard GN use on LMG they should disclose that thecreator some spat with ASUS and have issue with LMG not dropping ASUS as their sponsor

 

The biggest critic of the video is how GN try to frame the issue as small creator vs big company but as they claimed in their own video they choose to be small.

 

I think we should be objectively point out the mistake in GN videos withoutbe characterized as attack.

 

Nobody chooses to be small, also they are not small, with almost 2 mil subscribers, they are considered giants in the tech review scene. 

[andreimj]

1 minute ago, Cooldoe said:

The issue with your statement is you only hear the issue from GN side without any consideration some of the other side valid critics on his video.

Steve want to be the harbinger of ethics so let's talk about the ethics.

 

1. Journalism 101 ethic. For critic the normal journalist courtesy is to reach out to the other party foe comment. Steve clearly disregard this.

2. Steve talk about accuracy but he somehow 'forgot' to mention that Linus did talk about the inaccurate result in the video and looking for ways to solve the issue. This is in the same Wan show that Linus talked about the mouse issue. So he is addressing it but somehow GN 'forgot'

3. Another thing that GN forgot to mention is text revision on the video is standard for most youtube creator. So he is holding lmg in much higher standard than normal. This should be disclosed.

4. Similar thing with framework bias issue. GN fail to inform that Linus already address this issue multiple times and have properly disclose this issue. Again this is industry standard on how to deal with it and Steve 'forgot' to mention

5. In regards to ASUS, using the same standard GN use on LMG they should disclose that thecreator some spat with ASUS and have issue with LMG not dropping ASUS as their sponsor

 

The biggest critic of the video is how GN try to frame the issue as small creator vs big company but as they claimed in their own video they choose to be small.

 

I think we should be objectively point out the mistake in GN videos withoutbe characterized as attack.

 

Also this is exactly why he manipulated his narrative. His refusal of reaching out made his accusations to be incomplete and one sided. The lack of objectivity on his side too, amplified the hate and caused people to tilt their focus from the issues that mattered most, and this was not informative but unfortunate on his part

[NorKris]

26 minutes ago, TheNamesKyle said:

If you think GN did anything wrong, you either don't watch GN or are being a contrarian just to be one. 

?????

 

GN did nothing wrong

[TheNamesKyle]

1 minute ago, NorKris said:

?????

 

GN did nothing wrong

??????

Yes.

[hmfaysal]

1 minute ago, NorKris said:

?????

 

GN did nothing wrong

Lets see, in 6 months time, which companies sponsor or collaborate with Steve. Doesn't matter whether he is running GN or something else

[Cooldoe]

2 minutes ago, hmfaysal said:

Nobody chooses to be small, also they are not small, with almost 2 mil subscribers, they are considered giants in the tech review scene. 

That was literally his word when he discuss the change on how they will treat LMG.

As you mention they are quite big so I strongly question his claim that they do not have youtube rep that me mention in the video

[Vexenar]

15 minutes ago, andreimj said:

I agree with part of what you wrote. I think you're missing the fact that Linus was always open in the WAN show and acknoledged many of the point Steve made for years now. This is the Youtube game and for years you had to upload daily to remain relevant cuz you know....algorithm... It has gotten better recently and I happy that Youtubers can take a break whithout ruining their online carrier. Linus chose to do both: 1. Improve quality -build the labs (still work in progress), hire a CEO (still work in progress), stepping down (still work in progress) and 2. Still making videos at the same pace for the reasons I just stated.

 

Things are not black and white, and most of the things you've said are still arguable like the Billet labs fiasco

It's evident to me that you have no idea how setting up a testing lab works.
When setting up a lab to test equipment your very first data points are the most important, because that is what you base the rest of your testing on. If due to time constraints or personal mistakes because people who work on it did not receive the accurate training (Linus has expressed as much) then that means that every test you do after that is flawed, skewed or not properly measured and it will only get worse. 

It's great that Linus is playing a Youtube game and working to stay relevant to an algorithm, but that doesn't work as an excuse when you are trying to build a lab that is measured against other industry giant in the field like Hardware Unboxed and Gamers Nexus. If those videos are inaccurate and people base their purchasing behavior off of them then those videos should be pulled the minute inconsistencies are detected, rather than remain online and having editor text edits in the video while not everone may watch it and just listen. 

To summarize your points; 

• The quality got worse after Linus initually responded to community feedback about the quality in videos slipping and more editorial mistakes popping up.
• There is no excuse for Labs to have bad results other than them rushing things which is bad for a testing lab to do. 
   

Linus also has a tendency where he can't let go because as other people before me have stated; (LTT is his baby). 
This is exactly part of the issue that caused this gigantic community backlash, had he not responded to the GN video on these forums and just let the new CEO deal with is, as is his job, there would have been 0 community backlash because there would have been a more corporate response where they said they were going to deal with the issues the video addressed. Instead Linus responded to is like it was a personal attack and deflected all blame and started calling Steve his integrity as a journalist into question, you do not do that as a owner of a company, especially if most of the criticism is valid. 

You are right that things are not black and white, so stop painting my posts in one color. 

[andreimj]

People here automatically assume that if you make a point that not only Linus/LMG are in the wrong, you are a superfan. This is a really stupid argument and it says more about you as an individual but than the ones in question....

[dragonuck76]

2 hours ago, Vexenar said:

Linus his apology was mostly deflecting the key issues and taking valid criticism about the poor quality of LTT videos as personal. 
Did we read the same apology on the forums? 

Most of the comments on reddit and the forums said that they were going to take what Steve said with a grain of sand and wait for Linus or LMG's initial reaction to the criticism raised. All hell broke loose after Linus posted his initial thoughts on the forums and he started deflecting the issues and calling Steve out for not reaching out to him personally, which Steve was not entitled to do to begin with. 

 

The fact that they are taking a week-long break to restructure their processes and work on producing more quality content shows you that most of the issues that were addressed (and the admitted to in the apology video) were mostly baind-aid fixes. As egrerious errors were still being released on most of their videos with caveat edits post production. Even their apology video had errors like failing to blurr Colton's actual work e-mail which he is no doubt getting blasted with e-mails on now. 

The GN video was needed for LMG to improve their processes and realize the scope of the problem. 
It's not like LMG is a small company now, manufacturers take them seriously and as far as tech is concerned they are now amongst the industry giants when reporting on it, as such their content should be treated as such, especially when they have a labs department that should be releasing content that is tested properly and in-line with industry standards. So far it hasn't. 

I am 100% certain that if the video was not posted by Steve these issues would not be addressed at the scope they are currently being addressed at. 

Yes the forum and reddit was responded in personal, you would to, when all you see are personal hatred attacks against you as a person and the team at LMG.  SO those are more unwarranted than Linus response to it.  The video made more than up for it and gave more clue to what was going on than what GN had made out.  GN intent was to do what it did.  Covered by pointing out mis-information, which we all know and which LMG have stated over and over on the WAN show they are working on... and that was by the community.  Steve just blew it up...LMG response is the community not to GN.  

In the end, LMG are going to fix things, and be better for it.

[Cooldoe]

3 minutes ago, andreimj said:

Also this is exactly why he manipulated his narrative. His refusal of reaching out made his accusations to be incomplete and one sided. The lack of objectivity on his side too, amplified the hate and caused people to tilt their focus from the issues that mattered most, and this was not informative but unfortunate on his part

Yes I though I was listening to Tucker Carlton for a minute

[Majestic12]

7 minutes ago, Cooldoe said:

The issue with your statement is you only hear the issue from GN side without any consideration some of the other side valid critics on his video.

Steve want to be the harbinger of ethics so let's talk about the ethics.

 

1. Journalism 101 ethic. For critic the normal journalist courtesy is to reach out to the other party foe comment. Steve clearly disregard this.

2. Steve talk about accuracy but he somehow 'forgot' to mention that Linus did talk about the inaccurate result in the video and looking for ways to solve the issue. This is in the same Wan show that Linus talked about the mouse issue. So he is addressing it but somehow GN 'forgot'

3. Another thing that GN forgot to mention is text revision on the video is standard for most youtube creator. So he is holding lmg in much higher standard than normal. This should be disclosed.

4. Similar thing with framework bias issue. GN fail to inform that Linus already address this issue multiple times and have properly disclose this issue. Again this is industry standard on how to deal with it and Steve 'forgot' to mention

5. In regards to ASUS, using the same standard GN use on LMG they should disclose that thecreator some spat with ASUS and have issue with LMG not dropping ASUS as their sponsor

 

The biggest critic of the video is how GN try to frame the issue as small creator vs big company but as they claimed in their own video they choose to be small.

 

I think we should be objectively point out the mistake in GN videos withoutbe characterized as attack.

 

You're bang on here and worded it better than I have so far. GN is nowhere near as innocent and impartial as they behave and the videos were very disingenuous to say the least by portraying things in a negative light and demanding ridiculous things from LMG. No-one takes down a video because of a small error that is not that significant. While there's definitely improvements possible and the staff was clearly overworked, the WAY GN went after LMG was despicable. They did their best to dress it up nicely but they still shoved a knife deep in his back. In fact, it's the way they dressed it up and pretended to be the good guys that pissed me off the most. At least admit your agenda instead of outright lying to the audience.

 

GN has been jealous of LMG for a long time and has taken many many digs at LMG in the past. As someone else said: you can feel there's some awkwardness underneath their online "friendship" but LMG NEVER went after GN. Linus also outright said on the WAN show that you can never kick down even if you're 100% in the right because you're always the loser when you do so as if he could predict GN going after him.

[NorKris]

1 minute ago, hmfaysal said:

Lets see, in 6 months time, which companies sponsor or collaborate with Steve. Doesn't matter whether he is running GN or something else

all that he wants to collab with...? 

[hmfaysal]

Just now, Cooldoe said:

That was literally his word when he discuss the change on how they will treat LMG.

As you mention they are quite big so I strongly question his claim that they do not have youtube rep that me mention in the video

Yeah, in youtube scale, they are not large, they still do have 1 contact person at youtube. Heck, even with 50k spend or earning/month, even in Asia, Google assigns you a KAM. Its disingenuous. Do they get red carpet service? Maybe not. But they do have a key account manager assigned by Google.

Google is a behemoth with excellent customer care. What can you do.

 

Its a narrative point, making Google look bad. Steve should put the money where his mouth is

[andreimj]

1 minute ago, Cooldoe said:

Yes I though I was listening to Tucker Carlton for a minute

Are you sarcastic? If not, I wouldn't go that far

[hmfaysal]

1 minute ago, NorKris said:

all that he wants to collab with...? 

No no, want to see which pc parts manufacturers want to collab with him. In my knowledge, these companies hire really competent sales managers

[dragonuck76]

2 hours ago, 3m3m said:

This is the alarming aspect: GN weaponized Linus's shortcomings in this scenario. If you examine their videos closely, you'll notice that both were anticipating a negative response. GN was banking on this anticipation. They possess a personal understanding of Linus that goes beyond what the public knows; anyone familiar with LMG's videos recognizes that Linus can get emotional. I believe Linus was grappling internally. He held a deep respect for GN and Steve. That must have been painful, and it's important to acknowledge the human element in this situation.

 

We can discern GN's intention from their own words: 'They know how Linus will respond.' This is why I assert that they weaponized LMG's transparency, honesty, and faith that people would view their shortcomings positively. GN managed to turn this into a net negative, tapping into Linus's personal emotions, and they achieved the response they sought.

 

If you cannot perceive this, it might be helpful to take a step back and consider the extensive history. Psychological manipulation is challenging to detect, but with the right insight, it becomes evident.

Sorry it may have been how my post came across, but I was pointing out that GN made a meal of it, and knew as you said Linus would come post out as he did.... Linus loves his business and as he says on WAN show a hell of a lot, he wears his heart on his sleeve...   so personal attacks that came out before his post, where full unwarranted and abusive, and GN knew this would happen, their 2nd video shows that. 

[Vexenar]

5 minutes ago, Majestic12 said:

GN has been jealous of LMG for a long time and has taken many many digs at LMG in the past.

Do you have proof other than hearsay? 

If not then people regurgitating this is just as bad as the people who are on the LMG hate bandwagon. 

The previous videos GN did about LMG was about the "Trust me bro" incident which were honestly warranted. 
After gigantic community backlash Linus finally relented and added a warrantee to a 250$ backpack while he still thought it didn't need one, that's extremely bad for a company who claims to support the rights of consumers. 

[Godiwa]

14 minutes ago, Shlouski said:

 

My opinion does not align with yours so any rebuttal I make is non sense, does this apply only to me or to anyone that disagrees with you? 

 

Winston Churchill

Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.

you are speaking against what they BOTH SAID... I think they know their friendship a heck of a lot better than you do... nothing to do with my opinion... they know, you don't... simple

[Majestic12]

5 minutes ago, Vexenar said:

Do you have proof other than hearsay? 

If not then people regurgitating this is just as bad as the people who are on the LMG hate bandwagon. 

The previous videos GN did about LMG was about the "Trust me bro" incident which were honestly warranted. 
After gigantic community backlash Linus finally relented and added a warrantee to a 250$ backpack while he still thought it didn't need one, that's extremely bad for a company who claims to support the rights of consumers. 

If you watch GN you see loads of snide remarks - these are a clear sign of jealousy if you read between the lines. No it's not written in stone for obvious reasons but Steve obviously doesn't like (and he has even outright said this even if slightly veiled) how LMG can be so big & popular when GN does things more fastidiously. Steve often disguises it as "other tech channels" but it's often very obvious he's talking about LMG.

[hmfaysal]

1 minute ago, Godiwa said:

you are speaking against what they BOTH SAID... I think they know their friendship a heck of a lot better than you do... nothing to do with my opinion... they know, you don't... simple

Everybody is making the assumption that they are exclusively in the tech review space, forgetting the fact they are under an overarching media space.

That matters, its media, entertainment. Steve isn't competing as well as LTT in that space, fair and simple.

In fairness, MKBHD and Unbox Therapy are even doing better in that space considering their company size and effort level.

Lets forget about Pewdiepie