Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Majestic12]

36 minutes ago, ze77y said:

Prototype by definition is one of the kind. It was a bit exaggerated with that they were actually OK to leave the prototype with LTT if they would use it again for the sake of publicity, in which case they would have had another one built -- but it does take time and money. When they didn't even care to test it properly, obviously Billet wanted it back. The screwup with auctioning it off was a big one, on multiple levels as they knew for a long time by then that Billet wanted it back and they should have shipped it back alongside 3090 Ti (which they didn't even care to use for the test) long time ago.

 

If Billet knew straight away they won't get it back, they would have ordered another one, so in some ways Steve's criticism that it impedes work at Billet is true -- cause if I recall right it was more than a month before they found out it was sold and then they even still didn't hear back for days after asking if they will be compensated.

 

As about Steve's second response, I think it was deservingly smug because instead of addressing the valid criticisms, Linus went his usual emo gaslight route -- his response was so full of shit, there wasn't really much to add.

 

As about the apology video, it seems to be exactly the thing that was needed but somehow it doesn't sit well for me. It was plain, it was explaining what was done, it featured many team members.. and still, I guess there was something non-genuinely awkward about it, the whole corporate feel and the dumb jokes that didn't fit. I think that perhaps by splitting the narrative into these explanatory chunks didn't work well. Time will tell. I trust Linus has best intentions but you know how they say, road to hell is paved with best intentions. You shouldn't become arrogant and lose track of essentials with your grand plans.

 

Still got to see how the Madison affair plays out. From what information is out there now, it seems that she wasn't up to the level to work at Linus, still she wasn't treated well and especially the bits of sexual harassment, if true, are unacceptable, heads may have to roll.

I mostly agree with you - they royally screwed up with the prototype but I disagree with the WHY and with the part of Steve's second response being deserved. In the original vid Steve left out the fact that it was initially agreed they could keep the prototype (and as such it got shelved that way) and he also said it got sold off instead of auctioned. That may be a "small" difference but it shows sloppiness on his part and the way he doubled down in his second video calling it justification when it clearly wasn't left a very sour taste in my mouth.

 

Also, you ALWAYS need to go to the root of the problem. WHAT is the root problem. According to GN LMG or Linus was treating the small developer like shit ON PURPOSE. This was HEAVILY insinuated. In reality, it was an internal fuck up, a communication screw up and another symptom of people being overworked, poor management and growing pains within a company that is growing too fast too quickly. GN made a serious biased decision to go for the "malicious intent" route so the criticism towards GN is well deserved in that area.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, ze77y said:

I said nothing that contradicts what you just said. I'll only add that I am glad GN did what they did as otherwise

1) I wouldn't have known some of these facts

2) LTT wouldn't really change -- they clearly needed the public beating

I do agree with you LTT needs restructuring and needs to analyze how they communicate and what they communicate. Again I never said LMG is innocent. What I am saying is GN is not a saint. 

[Godiwa]

3 minutes ago, Majestic12 said:

If LMG manages to get the most out of LTT Labs, GN may well fear it for good reason. GN is known for going in hard on statistics & numbers and the very reason they go after LMG for fluffing their numbers is exactly because they know they go way overboard on their own vids so they're in a strong position to throw stones from. If they think LMG may start to get more number heavy & provide more accurate data ... oh dear poor GN.

 

And in that sense, I think Steve & GN may well have gotten more jealous of LMG because (and let's be honest here) GN would make better use of all that equipment than LMG likely well. To GN and Steve the sort of equipment Linus has is like a wet dream. It's like a poor PC gamer watching an 8 year old get a 5000$ PC to play Minecraft on - you're miffed. Linus basically got industry grade testing equipment for a tech channel which GN can only DREAM of affording. You think this wouldn't cause jealousy?

seriously doubt he is jealous because of some equipment...

they just built their OWN lab with the exact things that interest them... they don't care about the speed of mice and other weird stuff and when people have asked why they don't do reviews of this or that he has said he focus on what he think is interesting and fun for him... I'd say he doesn't give a flying fart...

but if they do bring in a "lab" for more/better gpu/cpu reviews then he is all for it and welcomes it (have said so in several videos already) so he WELCOMES more in the space... because for him it is important... as long as they do accurate honest and truthful data on it... and not just "meh screw it lets just run with it anyways" like they have been doing for years...

many older LMG subs already stated here and other places that they unsubbed ages ago because of the errors in the reviews... the reviews were unreliable... I am ONE of those people... I had been subbed since the house era where they were just a few people doing it... I unsubbed couple of years ago... I still watch a few videos from them here and there... (MacAddress, Emily (formerly Anthony) etc. made great videos and I really hope Emily will get back on camera... super knowledable but I understand her hesitation and hope she finds the courage to get back on cam since she is really good.

anyways reply got sidetracked slightly but felt it was important to say... I am not an LMG hater... I just want them to do BETTER and thankfully now they got the message and I hope they follow through and I root for them to succeed on it !

[andreimj]

3 minutes ago, Cooldoe said:

Not really as I clearly pointed out he could still release the video and he will be seen more positively but he clearly choose not to do that.

 

There are also other issue on his video as I pointed out

You had to make quite an effort to miss point so badly

[Mouhfighter]

7 minutes ago, dragonuck76 said:

we dont know if Linus would have acted one way or the other, as GN did not act as they should have...  GN Steve, knew exactly what he was doing, as the video was very obvious with its intent in the way it was edited....

Of course we "don't know" but from all the interactions mentioned, documented in writing and on video, we can with a high degree of certainty assume that Linus would have not sat down and made a balanced interview about the problem mentioned by Steve...

[ze77y]

1 hour ago, Majestic12 said:

You're bang on here and worded it better than I have so far. GN is nowhere near as innocent and impartial as they behave and the videos were very disingenuous to say the least by portraying things in a negative light and demanding ridiculous things from LMG. No-one takes down a video because of a small error that is not that significant. While there's definitely improvements possible and the staff was clearly overworked, the WAY GN went after LMG was despicable. They did their best to dress it up nicely but they still shoved a knife deep in his back. In fact, it's the way they dressed it up and pretended to be the good guys that pissed me off the most. At least admit your agenda instead of outright lying to the audience.

 

GN has been jealous of LMG for a long time and has taken many many digs at LMG in the past. As someone else said: you can feel there's some awkwardness underneath their online "friendship" but LMG NEVER went after GN. Linus also outright said on the WAN show that you can never kick down even if you're 100% in the right because you're always the loser when you do so as if he could predict GN going after him.

GN being "jealous" is nonsense, they are a niche channel and they have their space, where they are best at, it's not their intention to compete with LTT. They have also been on good terms, Steve was the one who woke up Linus reporting the hack, for example. I cannot claim I know Steve's motives but being a watcher of both channels, I think he was just pissed off by the inaccuracies where they are claiming their labs are the best. And Steve only said about taking down a video that had gross inaccuracies, such as Pwnage mouse and Billet waterblock, so I don't know where you're getting this from.. Minor inaccuracies can be corrected in the edit by additional voiceover -- or yes, at times even the asterisk is fine.

[Godiwa]

7 minutes ago, dragonuck76 said:

Not ture at all.  As you do not work or know the team at LMG.    What we do know is that GN video and the intent was ill made and covered with facts that needed to be made.  He could have kept the video to 15mins, and said Linus, get in order here is why, in 15mins, and then left it there... but NO, he showed clips, made accusations about Billet Labs that he had no clue about, too videos of staff comments about needing to slow down, which even Linus was on saying the same... which is more support that they knew and as he has said many times on the WAN show they are working on it... 

"accusations" no he presented the proof... there was a LOT of it... you might hate him for it, but that is your problem... and the amount of problems was the issue... and the variety of issues was too... the Billet one was just damning... and the SA one that came later even more so... now they will hopefully improve and move on stronger than ever

[andreimj]

4 minutes ago, Majestic12 said:

I mostly agree with you - they royally screwed up with the prototype but I disagree with the WHY and with the part of Steve's second response being deserved. In the original vid Steve left out the fact that it was initially agreed they could keep the prototype (and as such it got shelved that way) and he also said it got sold off instead of auctioned. That may be a "small" difference but it shows sloppiness on his part and the way he doubled down in his second video calling it justification when it clearly wasn't left a very sour taste in my mouth.

 

Also, you ALWAYS need to go to the root of the problem. WHAT is the root problem. According to GN LMG or Linus was treating the small developer like shit ON PURPOSE. This was HEAVILY insinuated. In reality, it was an internal fuck up, a communication screw up and another symptom of people being overworked, poor management and growing pains within a company that is growing too fast too quickly. GN made a serious biased decision to go for the "malicious intent" route so the criticism towards GN is well deserved in that area.

a very underrated take. very well said!

[ze77y]

9 minutes ago, Majestic12 said:

I mostly agree with you - they royally screwed up with the prototype but I disagree with the WHY and with the part of Steve's second response being deserved. In the original vid Steve left out the fact that it was initially agreed they could keep the prototype (and as such it got shelved that way) and he also said it got sold off instead of auctioned. That may be a "small" difference but it shows sloppiness on his part and the way he doubled down in his second video calling it justification when it clearly wasn't left a very sour taste in my mouth.

 

Also, you ALWAYS need to go to the root of the problem. WHAT is the root problem. According to GN LMG or Linus was treating the small developer like shit ON PURPOSE. This was HEAVILY insinuated. In reality, it was an internal fuck up, a communication screw up and another symptom of people being overworked, poor management and growing pains within a company that is growing too fast too quickly. GN made a serious biased decision to go for the "malicious intent" route so the criticism towards GN is well deserved in that area.

Yes, that is one thing that wasn't entirely clear from Steve's video. He did made it look more dramatic than it actually was once we have seen all the evidence -- but I also have sense it was partly Billet's narrative as obviously they were pissed off.

 

I never thought LTT had intentionally "stolen" the block or ghosting Billet, but they seemed real arrogant with the WAN show comments as well as not sending it back for weeks and then not replying about compensation for days until it came up in the GN video (which, as it turns out, was because the email was sent to the LTT internal addreses but not to theirs).

 

All in all, a multilayered, but not a malicious fuckup.

[Godiwa]

Speaking about the "devil" GN just uploaded a new video... Now you can see what he REALLY burns for... no link go find it yourself so I don't get whines over favoritism...

[Majestic12]

2 minutes ago, ze77y said:

GN being "jealous" is nonsense, they are a niche channel and they have their space, where they are best at, it's not their intention to compete with LTT. They have also been on good terms, Steve was the one who woke up Linus reporting the hack, for example. I cannot claim I know Steve's motives but being a watcher of both channels, I think he was just pissed off by the inaccuracies where they are claiming their labs are the best. And Steve only said about taking down a video that had gross inaccuracies, such as Pwnage mouse and Billet waterblock, so I don't know where you're getting this from.. Minor inaccuracies can be corrected in the edit by additional voiceover -- or yes, at times even the asterisk is fine.

Well I may be projecting because if I was in Steve's shoes I WOULD be jealous when your competitor is so much more popular but treats tech reviews too lightly. I mean, when LTT was smaller he could get away with it but the promise of the labs and so on should lead to a higher standard of quality but LMG keeps focussing on quantity over quality. I've written quite a few negative comments below certain videos (many Short Circuits) questioning the purpose of these videos because they felt so half assed. Linus has everything in his hands to make the best videos and I can tell he has staff that is tremendously talented but he needs to give them the time to do their job OR hire more people! I doubt fans really need 30 vids a week. I'd enjoy 10 vids a week a lot more if they took 3 times longer to make and were far more polished and contained more depth. 

 

Still, from the snide remarks I've seen Steve give, at the very least there's SOMETHING there where he has his grievances with LTT. I also wouldn't call GN "niche" - GN is very well known within the tech industry and while they don't target the entertainment audience as much to put it lightly (to be fair, my eyes often glaze over once they get knee deep in facts that should really be an Excel file at the bottom of a video) it also doesn't stop them from drumming up drama which is a weird combo to me.

[Alex Atkin UK]

11 minutes ago, Majestic12 said:

I mostly agree with you - they royally screwed up with the prototype but I disagree with the WHY and with the part of Steve's second response being deserved. In the original vid Steve left out the fact that it was initially agreed they could keep the prototype (and as such it got shelved that way) and he also said it got sold off instead of auctioned. That may be a "small" difference but it shows sloppiness on his part and the way he doubled down in his second video calling it justification when it clearly wasn't left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Except he's not wrong, them saying they could keep it doesn't mean they have a right to sell it, knowing it was a prototype.  At the very least its common courtesy to ask if its okay to do so if you no longer want to keep it.

 

The fact they asked for it back once it was clear LTT weren't going to test it properly is relevant, they had every right to do so and at that point it WAS stolen.  The fact the events were not quite as clear cut doesn't make what Steve said any less true.

 

An auction is still a sale, selling something doesn't automatically mean you profited from it.

[Cooldoe]

17 minutes ago, ze77y said:

 

Steve explained why he didn't want to contact LTT beforehand. They been called out on some of these issues before and they just brushed them off. And he was right about that Linus will try to manipulate the audience, which he did with his first response anyway. I, as part of the said audience and someone who wants LTT to succeed, am happy Steve did call them out publicly, and even then only because of the public outcry that followed, they responded appropriately.

 

As about journalistic ethics, it's recommended to contact your subjects for a comment, but it's not mandatory and in some cases you just don't want to do it. I have worked as a newspaper journalist and currently making documentaries, being in this sphere for over 20 years, so I know how this plays out in practice.

 

I totally agree that important points should be reshoot -- or added even if it's someone else saying this, as LTT has done sometimes. Asterixes are lame and in some cases they flash by so quickly while your eyes are on charts, you can barely register them. Also, they're just too many lately..

 

In regards of conflict of interest, this is where I think Steve and other accusers are wrong. I trust LTT to be impartial, at least on the leadership level, although they surely it's a balancing act. Framework connection has always been featured prominently and I haven't seen any change of attitude in laptop reviews. On the on the other time, why just don't Linus skip the laptop reviews entirely, it's not like there's not enough of topics for him to cover? The only time it seemed a bit dubious is when they rated Asus in the customer service video. Based on what was shown and my own experience as owner of many great Asus products, their customer service is 1/5.

 

I do agree with you that the other side story is not a strong case and there a need for the video.

 

What I like to point out is Steve does not follow his own standard of disclosure and accuracy. I am not saying he should not point out the text revision but the issue is he did not disclose that it is a normal thing to do in youtube and even in news as reshoot cost would be too high for a simple slip up. At least when Linus criticize paid review he mention that it is a prevalent issue in the industry

 

His accusations of bias by Linus is just that accusations without a shred of proof. It actually show his bias instead.

[hmfaysal]

8 minutes ago, ze77y said:

GN being "jealous" is nonsense, they are a niche channel and they have their space, where they are best at, it's not their intention to compete with LTT. They have also been on good terms, Steve was the one who woke up Linus reporting the hack, for example. I cannot claim I know Steve's motives but being a watcher of both channels, I think he was just pissed off by the inaccuracies where they are claiming their labs are the best. And Steve only said about taking down a video that had gross inaccuracies, such as Pwnage mouse and Billet waterblock, so I don't know where you're getting this from.. Minor inaccuracies can be corrected in the edit by additional voiceover -- or yes, at times even the asterisk is fine.

Holy fk, I forgot Steve was the one who called Linus about the hack. This changes things. 

 

So Steve was awake when it happened

[Blademaster91]

27 minutes ago, dragonuck76 said:

*Linus is able to do so as it is from his own personal income, and has made this clear so many times.  He loves tech, and a laptop like framework is nothing new, and I wont be surprised that others follow this... he has shown no ill-intend with this

Whether its from his personal income doesn't matter, its a problem of being impartial because he has a interest in it, LMG has plenty of other talent and I think it would be better if Linus isn't doing laptop reviews because of the inherent bias towards Framework.

I like Framework as a company, but not the conflict of interest with putting a stake in Framework and still reviewing other brands of laptops objectively.

27 minutes ago, dragonuck76 said:

*the WAN show is just in name, but it is also his way to communicate back to the community.  They do time stamp the videos later. so you dont have to sit through hours.

The WAN show is a podcast, not a main LTT channel video, my point was not everyone is going to sit through a podcast or even watch the WAN show. I used to enjoy the WAN show when it was Linus and Luke discussing the news, now its more of Linus going on rants that Luke at times doesn't agree with, and I side with Luke as what he says is much more well thought out.

27 minutes ago, dragonuck76 said:

* we only have Steves word that he has tried to communicate with LMG, but seeing as Steve got it all wrong about Billet Labs, and the fact other videos of his, he has made alot of mistakes;  but he also has done good stuff, but in some with ill-intent

As I said Steve has tried to talk with LMG, its always brushed away as not being an issue. Steve didn't get anything wrong on Billet labs, Billet labs didn't give him all of the info, and it depends if you really trust how LTT and Linus discussed the timeline on what happened. I am skeptical on LMG's side as they were supposed to return the block, but didn't then sold it and joked about how it wasn't sitting on a shelf which seems like ill-intent to me.

27 minutes ago, dragonuck76 said:

* thats a bit bias, do you work for LMG to know if they are able to; as you say lot of youtubers can add text corrections in videos;  But to that end I wont be surprised to see far less with that being needed

I don't know of any other youtubers that have admitted they can completely change a video without taking down the inital video and uploading a new one. Also apparently since LMG can do that it makes no sense why they don't just makes corrections in the video.

27 minutes ago, dragonuck76 said:

* what is your point, to be you come across a GN fan which is ok, but you act like GN are right, and that LMG hae always been wrong on this.  LMG have been critical, anker for one, and others that we do and do not know.  But as for Asus, he has pointed out mistakes, just like he has with Intel, AMD, 

Criticizing me of being biased of GN is hyperbole, as I'm just pointing out what happened, I'm not going to attack GN when they aren't to blame for any of this.

Also LMG completely avoiding anker when it was eufy then saying all anker products are bad was going too overboard in my opinion. I think anker products are decent, all they had to say was eufy was garbage.

As for Asus, the conflict of interest is there too, theres several times he went too easy on Asus, Intel and Nvidia. Another example is Linus said he was going to switch to an AMD graphics card, but hasn't done any updates on it.

 

[Majestic12]

6 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Except he's not wrong, them saying they could keep it doesn't mean they have a right to sell it, knowing it was a prototype.  At the very least its common courtesy to ask if its okay to do so if you no longer want to keep it.

 

An auction is still a sale, selling something doesn't automatically mean you profited from it.

We're not lawyers here - being technically correct doesn't win any points. The core of the problem is that GN made it seem like a malicious decision while LMG (and Linus specifically) wanted to make it clear it was definitely NOT done on purpose and it was a communication fuck up. Instead of GN correcting themselves, they doubled down in their second video after they came to realize the audience mostly cared about the cooling block. I mean, the audience cared exactly BECAUSED it was framed as "Linus screwed over this dev on purpose". Did you see the memes popping up everywhere after the first vid appeared?

 

People outright thought Linus wanted to sabotage Billet Labs and when Linus tried to cool things down, GN doubled down and called it a "justification" and ignored the finer details.

 

Imaging being Linus and seeing this everywhere in his feed as if he's the devil personified ...

[ze77y]

Just now, Cooldoe said:

I do agree with you that the other side story is not a strong case and there a need for the video.

 

What I like to point out is Steve does not follow his own standard of disclosure and accuracy. I am not saying he should not point out the text revision but the issue is he did not disclose that it is a normal thing to do in youtube and even in news as reshoot cost would be too high for a simple slip up. At least when Linus criticize paid review he mention that it is a prevalent issue in the industry

 

His accusations of bias by Linus is just that accusations without a shred of proof. It actually show his bias instead.

 

Well, neither did Linus contact Pwnage or Billet for comment before publishing their damning reviews with his own made mistakes..

[Alex Atkin UK]

2 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Also LMG completely avoiding anker when it was eufy then saying all anker products are bad was going too overboard in my opinion. I think anker products are decent, all they had to say was eufy was garbage.

 

As for Asus, the conflict of interest is there too, there several times he went too easy on Asus, Intel and Nvidia. Another example is Linus said he was going to switch to an AMD graphics card, but hasn't done any updates on it.

That's actually a good point, as their attitude towards Anker and ASUS were polar opposites.  If they were going to blacklist Anker for Eufy mistakes, they should have blacklisted ASUS.

[WallacEngineering]

2 hours ago, hmfaysal said:

Yes, thats what I am saying. We need to hunker down on it. I think this OnlyFans thing is the key.

 

Except 100-1 odds shes lying about most of it, and even if she wasn't lying - she could just get another job.

 

Theres no way in hell this will hold up in court. She has already lost, might as well forget about it.

[andreimj]

6 minutes ago, Godiwa said:

Speaking about the "devil" GN just uploaded a new video... Now you can see what he REALLY burns for... no link go find it yourself so I don't get whines over favoritism...

He is deleting all comments reffering to the backlash

[NorKris]

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

 

Criticizing me of being biased of GN is hyperbole, as I'm just pointing out what happened, I'm not going to attack GN when they aren't to blame for any of this.

 

 

Ye blaming GN for making the vid is pure:

[Cooldoe]

12 minutes ago, Mouhfighter said:

Of course we "don't know" but from all the interactions mentioned, documented in writing and on video, we can with a high degree of certainty assume that Linus would have not sat down and made a balanced interview about the problem mentioned by Steve...

That is fair but to totally denies his chance to response?

 

And to misrepresent some fact about LMG bias on framework?

To fail to mention that text correction on video is done by many youtuber including some of the other big name?

[hmfaysal]

As I said already, Squarespace is going to change tactics about GN. It will have an impact.

 

People canceled their float plane subscriptions, which people monitored, LTT also lost some subs, but Squarespace lost a bit too, people who purchased it using LTT link. Which is substantial than GN purchases.

 

Steve needs to gain back those numbers within a month I guess for Squarespace. 

Lesssgoooo Steve

[Godiwa]

3 minutes ago, andreimj said:

He is deleting all comments reffering to the backlash

why would you post those on a new video about something different? yeah I wonder why that would get removed... hmmm... of course they remove warriors trying to create drama...

[ze77y]

1 minute ago, Majestic12 said:

We're not lawyers here - being technically correct doesn't win any points. The core of the problem is that GN made it seem like a malicious decision while LMG (and Linus specifically) wanted to make it clear it was definitely NOT. Instead of GN correcting themselves, they doubled down in their second video after they came to realize the audience mostly cared about the cooling block. I mean, the audience cared exactly BECAUSED it was framed as "Linus screwed over this dev on purpose". Did you see the memes popping up everywhere after the first vid appeared? People outright thought Linus wanted to sabotage Billet Labs and when Linus tried to cool things down, GN doubled down and called it a "justification" and ignored the finer details.

But it wasn't known that Colton's email was sent when Steve made the second video, so he deducted Linus is lying..

 

This thread feels like being on a jury haha -- I think I should stop now, cause there's always something to say

 

Either way, I am glad this happened, I think it's all for the best and I do love LTT and will keep watching it.