Windows 11 is getting more disgusting by the "Insider" Update

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Ditch the factory FW, you will be pleasantly surprised.

Sadly cannot, it's my work phone on contract blah blah don't mess with it etc lol

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

It is funny seeing M$ get lambasted for trying to go a full OS on a tablet, and Apple similar for not going full desktop OS on theirs.

iOS is not a garbage OS on a tablet because it's not Mac OS and Mac OS isn't a garbage desktop OS because it's not iOS. Apple has done, or likely has done, a lot of research in to that and is why they refuse to merge them in any way.

[jagdtigger]

6 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

It doesn’t have to flop with a ground up OS. Apple have shown they can go to a whole new silicon yet still get software to run really well.

If its called windows and users cant run their stuff on it it will, win8 on arm is a pretty good example. And apple is a pretty bad analogy. They fully control the HW including the cpu now, id wager they have some sort of support baked in to help the os better run x86 for programs with their solution. MS dont have this sort of control (thank good), and even if they could build a lightweight OS it still would not be able to run x86 at full speed (or at all).

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

MS dont have this sort of control (thank good), and even if they could build a lightweight OS it still would not be able to run x86 at full speed (or at all).

A ground up OS can still be built on to top the NT Kernel and be x86 itself, ARM is not necessary or a requirement for a Tablet OS. Windows 10 Mobile was actually a hybrid kernel based on NT anyway, hybrid in that it was also ARM based.

 

The iPad really is the only actually decent tablet on the market, that isn't pretending to be a laptop or vice versa. Every Android based one has so many small problems and issues that collectively sums up to very much being inferior. I honestly could never recommend anything other than an iPad.

 

Ground up new OS based on NT kernel that can run on ARM and x86 hardware natively with every layer on top of it designed and focused on being for a tablet would actually have a chance at doing well. Also that work would go a long way in preparing Microsoft for any further ARM adoption they may or may not want or need to do. Even additionally to that if it actually succeeds then that will be Microsoft's entry back in to the phone market if they want to.

[Distinctly Average]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

iOS is not a garbage OS on a tablet because it's not Mac OS and Mac OS isn't a garbage desktop OS because it's not iOS. Apple has done, or likely has done, a lot of research in to that and is why they refuse to merge them in any way.

Totally agree (with both your last posts). It is just the odd attitudes people have towards them. Hopefully Apple will get some more of their top apps onto IPadOS, particularly the M1 iPads. It is a challenge and many don’t realise that. Just because they share a CPU doesn’t make it easy. We interact with a Mac and an iPad in very different ways and the same interface on the software often does not lend itself to both platforms. 
 

As for building on the current Windows kernal, that is what I was intimating. I am certain M$ could do just that. A common kernel for both diverging into two systems. Done well it could be very successful. It can be made for tables devices a lot lighter than for desktop as there will be far fewer hardware variations.

[Guest]

I've been using windows since windows 95 and I didn't even realize you could do this

[Sauron]

I don't know what benefit there is to removing it but to be honest I have never used this feature in 10 or otherwise. I always have all my system tray icons visible anyway and reordering them never seemed useful to me.

[Mark Kaine]

Why are you guys saying MS wants to make a phone or tablet OS? That doesnt make sense lol, they dont make phones afaik, and only a handful of ultra niche "tablets" (which also doesnt make sense)

They already have a windows "mobile" OS, they should just use that if anything.

 

ps: tf is this, it looks like a 2011 Lenovo product… they didnt get the memo?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, bwat47 said:

I've been using windows since windows 95 and I didn't even realize you could do this

Do what? 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Why are you guys saying MS wants to make a phone or tablet OS? That doesnt make sense lol, they dont make phones afaik, and only a handful of ultra niche "tablets" (which also doesnt make sense)

They already have a windows "mobile" OS, they should just use that if anything.

 

ps: tf is this, it looks like a 2011 Lenovo product… they didnt get the memo?

 

 

 

Do what? 

re-order system tray icons with drag and drop

[leadeater]

37 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Why are you guys saying MS wants to make a phone or tablet OS?

Because Microsoft's literal offical reasoning given for their choices for Windows 11 is to optimize for tablet devices. We don't think, Microsoft is saying it. Neither are we saying they want to make a Phone OS, they have a Phone OS, they can use this for a basis for an actual Tablet OS not try and ram the 20cm square peg that is Windows through the 10cm round hole that is Tablets.

 

Has nothing to do with what devices Microsoft makes, you know Microsoft never used to make devices at all and that never stopped them making Windows Phone OS or trying to Make Windows 8 a Tablet first OS.

 

7 minutes ago, bwat47 said:

they dont make phones afaik

They don't make PCs either so why are that making Windows? 

 

37 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

They already have a windows "mobile" OS, they should just use that if anything.

So ah... what I was saying... 

[Mark Kaine]

4 hours ago, bwat47 said:

re-order system tray icons

we talking about the thing on the lower right side here? i mean i understand not caring about it, i guess, but to me Windows becomes *unusable* if this isnt how i want it (just like right click > copy, rename, etc is essential…) one of the first things I do when setting up a system (funny enough *most* of the basic stuff is already how i want it tbf …)

 

? 

 

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Because Microsoft's literal offical reasoning given for their choices for Windows 11 is to optimize for tablet devices. We don't think, Microsoft is saying it.

Ah, ok! I didnt know that, i just thought you guys just assumed thats got to be it - but then why they removed "tablet view" one of the best things ever... oh well.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

They don't make PC either so why are that making Windows?

Good point!

 

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

So ah... what I was saying

Seriously… that was so good… the reason it wasnt popular was app support (missing thereof) not the OS itself, i think…

 

[LAwLz]

11 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

we talking about the thing on the lower right side here? i mean i understand not caring about it, i guess, but to me Windows becomes *unusable* if this isnt how i want it (just like right click > copy, rename, etc is essential…) one of the first things I do when setting up a system (funny enough *most* of the basic stuff is already how i want it tbf …)

Yes, that's what Microsoft is changing.

 

In my opinion, if it is still possible to reorganize them then it's fine. I don't need drag and drop support. Hell, it might actually be better without drag and drop support, so that people like me don't accidentally change it. I just hope that it is still possible to organize them and that I am not stuck with whatever Microsoft thinks is good.

 

Lots of programs have a bad habit of putting themselves in the system tray and I don't want to see them. They just clutter the menu up. I keep all the things I often access visible (volume, networking, Defender and Dropbox) and keep all the other ones hidden (Outlook, teams, OneNote, Nvidia control panel, RTX Voice, Corsiar iCUE).

I get that some people don't care, but to me it actually is a very important tool to make sure I work efficiently. I basically use it like widgets, and too many widgets defeats the purpose, which is quick, glanceable info and quick access to often used functions.

[mr moose]

On 4/3/2022 at 7:59 PM, System51 said:

Yeah but why move / remove stuff and don't just give us a choice like u using touch yes/no here are the default features here are the new ones. Can't be that hard. Haven't seen a single office so far where they switch to touch

They changed it likely because 99% of windows users didn't even know it was a feature let alone something they use daily.  

 

I think the reason offices haven't switched to touch is because windows is still not there yet.  And if MS cops backlash every time they try move it in that direction then is it ever going to get there?   I mean in this case they didn't remove the feature, they just put it somewhere where a touch screen user wouldn't accidentally fuck up the tray then spend the next 6 months shit canning MS for a problem that could have been easily prevented, but this forum is carrying on like they removed the 3.5 jack and forced you to use the windows store. 

 

 

[HenrySalayne]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:00 PM, Thaldor said:

I believe the Apple and open source communities are more than happy to take the users into MacOS and Linux

 

On a sunny summer day in 2011, Apple decided that the world was scrolling in the wrong direction for the past couple of decades and "updated" MacOS so all* scroll directions were inverted. Friendly reminder: if you don't like Microsoft's silly shenanigans, don't even consider switching to MacOS.

 

*scrolling to the left even scrolled to the right. Yes, it was THAT stupid.

[Lightwreather]

24 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

On a sunny summer day in 2011, Apple decided that the world was scrolling in the wrong direction for the past couple of decades and "updated" MacOS so all* scroll directions were inverted.

Thankfully that's a simple switch in the system preferences now.

But jeez was installing it annoying with that enabled (I like looking at the log when doing a clean install).

[HenrySalayne]

27 minutes ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

Thankfully that's a simple switch in the system preferences now.

Is it? I remember I had to install a tool called "scroll reverser" or something like that so scroll direction could be individually set for trackpads and mouse wheels because there was just one global on/off switch.

Even worse, it worked fine on Windows! On a Macbook! Imagine that...

Under MacOS you could only have the unnatural trackpad with the correct scroll wheel or the unnatural mouse wheel with the correct trackpad, under Windows you could set it individually. Why were the Windows drivers on a Macbook better than MacOS itself?

 

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

 

On a sunny summer day in 2011, Apple decided that the world was scrolling in the wrong direction for the past couple of decades and "updated" MacOS so all* scroll directions were inverted. Friendly reminder: if you don't like Microsoft's silly shenanigans, don't even consider switching to MacOS.

 

*scrolling to the left even scrolled to the right. Yes, it was THAT stupid.

I hate inverted scroll. First things I do on any fresh macOS install are revert inverted scroll and enable three finger drag.

[LAwLz]

35 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Is it? I remember I had to install a tool called "scroll reverser" or something like that so scroll direction could be individually set for trackpads and mouse wheels because there was just one global on/off switch.

Even worse, it worked fine on Windows! On a Macbook! Imagine that...

Under MacOS you could only have the unnatural trackpad with the correct scroll wheel or the unnatural mouse wheel with the correct trackpad, under Windows you could set it individually. Why were the Windows drivers on a Macbook better than MacOS itself?

You can call the reverse scrolling direction a lot of things, but "unnatural" is not one of them.

It's just a different way of doing something. One that you are not used to. In fact, I would argue that the reverse scrolling is MORE natural than the "normal" scrolling, since the reverse scrolling mimics how things would act if the screen was a paper. You pull your finger up to reveal more of the bottom content.

 

Pulling our finger down (on for example a scroll wheel) to move content on the screen upwards (the normal scroll operation in Windows) is just as "unnatural".

 

"It's not what I am used to" != "it's unnatural" or "it's bad".

[Paul Thexton]

Yep. The way everyone’s used to scrolling down = pulling the viewport on the document down. 
 

With Apple’s “natural” scrolling, scrolling down = pulling the document under the viewport down. 
 

It makes sense to me (it’s directly analogous to scrolling on a phone/tablet), but I still hate it

[Lightwreather]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

Is it?

Yes.

It's the checkbox that says "Scroll Direction: Natural"

[HenrySalayne]

18 minutes ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

It's the checkbox that says "Scroll Direction: Natural"

No, I meant if it can be set individually for a mouse and the trackpad or if it's still a global setting affecting both.

[HenrySalayne]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You can call the reverse scrolling direction a lot of things, but "unnatural" is not one of them.

It's just a different way of doing something. One that you are not used to. In fact, I would argue that the reverse scrolling is MORE natural than the "normal" scrolling, since the reverse scrolling mimics how things would act if the screen was a paper. You pull your finger up to reveal more of the bottom content.

 

Pulling our finger down (on for example a scroll wheel) to move content on the screen upwards (the normal scroll operation in Windows) is just as "unnatural".

If I'm playing an FPS and I move my mouse to the left, it turns to the left, if I tilt a joystick to the left, it turns to the left, but somehow if I tilt my mouse wheel to the left, it is going to the right and that is in your mind natural?

The same is true for vertical scrolling. Scrolling something forward (away from you) is associated with "up" or "higher" since the dawn of time. The only real outliers in this regard are flight controls.

 

Trackpads are a different story. Apple's idea to mimic the functionality of touch devices and unify the handling across different platforms was good. It just was executed not only poorly but viciously bad. So bad, you could argue Apple just wanted to annoy their users into buying more Magic Mice and Magic Trackspads which would rely on touch gestures.

 

 

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

No, I meant if it can be set individually for a mouse and the trackpad or if it's still a global setting affecting both.

The setting is available for both mouse & trackpad preference panes but I've just checked and it acts like a global toggle. I can't say that bothers me personally but sure I can imagine someone somewhere would want the behaviour to be inverted on one but not the other.

 

I've literally never encountered sideways scroll being inverted, I might have a play with that at some point when I can be bothered.

 

Anyway, back on to the original topic, I don't really get why Microsoft made the change, I would've thought it possible for the UI to distinguish between screen drag events and mouse drag events.  If you can't distinguish them in software I'd be pretty surprised tbh.

[LAwLz]

14 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

If I'm playing an FPS and I move my mouse to the left, it turns to the left, if I tilt a joystick to the left, it turns to the left, but somehow if I tilt my mouse wheel to the left, it is going to the right and that is in your mind natural?

The same is true for vertical scrolling. Scrolling something forward (away from you) is associated with "up" or "higher" since the dawn of time. The only real outliers in this regard are flight controls.

 

Trackpads are a different story. Apple's idea to mimic the functionality of touch devices and unify the handling across different platforms was good. It just was executed not only poorly but viciously bad. So bad, you could argue Apple just wanted to annoy their users into buying more Magic Mice and Magic Trackspads which would rely on touch gestures.

It's a matter of perspective. Are you moving a "camera" with the mouse, or are you moving the "content" with your mouse?

If we visualize the scroll wheel as moving the camera then it makes sense that "scrolling down moves the camera down, revealing things further down the page".

If we visualize the scroll wheel as moving the content across then "moving the content up reveals what's below it".

 

It's just a matter of perspective. Neither is more right or wrong than the other when talking about 2D content. Expectations are different when talking about games and such because we automatically assume we control a camera in those instances. We don't assume our character is stationary and our mouse moves the space around us, Futurama style.

Although, most people are probably used to the "the mouse controls the camera" logic since that has been the standard for so long. A brand new computer user who has no experience with computers will probably think that both are equally "natural".

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

Anyway, back on to the original topic, I don't really get why Microsoft made the change, I would've thought it possible for the UI to distinguish between screen drag events and mouse drag events.  If you can't distinguish them in software I'd be pretty surprised tbh.

Good point.

They absolutely can distinguish between a mouse drag and a screen drag because they already use this for things like scrolling. Finger dragging usually scrolls. Mouse dragging usually selects things.

[YamiYukiSenpai]

I'm only using Windows 11 in a VM to play games that won't work on Linux at all (i.e. anti-cheat), and the "simplifications" are pissing me off.

I only found out recently that their "widgets" require a Microsoft account.

And since I got less than 5 years left on 10, figured I'd jump ship & just mod 11 if it pissed me off enough (and it did).