Botherations, You’ll need a Microsoft account to set up future versions of Windows 11 Pro

[GoodBytes]

38 minutes ago, -Senku- said:

 

Having no internet used to work as well, i guess that trick pissed them off, but i just did it it the way you showed in images, atleast when testing in vm's

Yea. Might be doing an exception for VMs or the change isn't in line with the Build, and will be on the following one (not the first time)

[jagdtigger]

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

Because Linux has never been a solution for the desktop.

As far as i can see it for the r=1 user it already is. (Web browser: check, basic word processing: check, media player: check, no need for console use: check).

 

Again  you are clutching straws here, citing that linux does not offer the same API's as windows and presenting them as "linux not having API's". It has its own set, as for the difference in distros its already solved by a minor thing called "system requirements", just put in the distro name like you do with windows versions. Hopefully the steam deck can kick dev's out of their lazy stance "oh i dont want to learn anything new"....

[pythonmegapixel]

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

Because Linux has never been a solution for the desktop. 

What you mean is that it's never been a solution for certain functionality on the desktop, and that functionality is a minority of use cases.

 

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

people seem to think that you can just swap grandma's windows PC with Linux and she wouldn't notice.

Well, why couldn't you? It's not exactly like the average grandma is trying to play Cyberpunk or edit high-resolution video, is it.

[Kisai]

10 hours ago, PocketNerd said:

*Godot has entered the chat*

 

I've actually had a better experience developing with Godot on Linux than I have on Unity.

I'd hope so, but Godot is still in a second-fiddle mode until 4.0 comes out, and thus getting it onto Playstation and Nintendo is going to be more difficult than Unity or GameMaker.

 

That said, I'm not putting down Unity or Godot here. The problem is that Linux is such a horrible OS as a Desktop to develop software for that, developers just don't bother and it's "Windows or you don't matter"

 

What does it tell you when you basically have to emulate Windows on Linux to get anything done because most software does not have a Linux build, and they don't have a Linux build because Linux is a pain in the ass to develop for.

 

Here's the thing, though, Middleware products can, and do solve some of the problems with developing games and other software. However it's really telling when software like Adobe and Autodesk products instead developed their own middleware that they develop their own products on because the OS's can't be trusted to not break things, and even then, their proprietary UI toolkits still break if the OS changes how things are fundamentally drawn (eg the hardware mouse cursor.)

 

 

[Kisai]

26 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

What you mean is that it's never been a solution for certain functionality on the desktop, and that functionality is a minority of use cases.

Because, every year "This year is the year of the Linux Desktop" and every year the disappointment is greater than the last. It's been this way since Windows 98. 25+ years of Linux not making any progress. It pretty much lost the game when Google developed Android for mobile using the Linux kernel but nothing that makes it Linux.

 

26 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

Well, why couldn't you? It's not exactly like the average grandma is trying to play Cyberpunk or edit high-resolution video, is it.

Have you tried to get someone who hates change to change their computer? George R R Martin still uses Wordstar. The largest book publisher in the world still uses DOS based tools in their logistics chain. There is no changing people's tools when they work for them. Quit buttering the cat.

 

[pythonmegapixel]

38 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Because, every year "This year is the year of the Linux Desktop" and every year the disappointment is greater than the last. It's been this way since Windows 98. 25+ years of Linux not making any progress.

I disagree that it hasn't made any progress, but that's for another thread.

 

38 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Have you tried to get someone who hates change to change their computer? 

Yes. I can say from personal experience that persuading an older person who is used to Windows 7, who doesn't know how computers work, and who only needs web browsing, email and word processing, to use a Linux Mint machine that I have set up to have basic things roughly where they would be in Windows is about the same difficulty as persuading them to use Windows 10. I've done both.

 

The thing is it doesn't matter that Windows 10 is more similar to Win7 than LM, because as far as this particular category of user is concerned, they both involve a complete change of how their computer works.

[mr moose]

Yes, Linux has the tools required for 90% of PC users (web, office, email).  too bad it's hit and miss if you'll actually get it working satisfactorily with your hardware.  

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating,  this means when you have a good outcome you know the ingredients are right. Until Linux actually gets a half decent market share on desktop,  it's because for whatever reason it is not good enough now. 

 

Here is a list (in no particular order) of legitimate reasons Linux has not managed to get any significant market share against paid products like windows and mac:

 

1. people don't like change

2. Linux is not stable on desktop (don't tell me it is, it's stable as a professionally engineered server,  but on desktop it is hit and miss with too many issues from the first install)

3. Linux is not supported by 3rd party apps/cheap hardware well enough

4. Companies like HP, Acer, asus, lenovo, etc have tried/do sell their laptops with Linux, but it was not really viable. Not enough market demand even when properly supported and cheaper.

 

It could be one of these, it could be a selection of these or it could even be something completely unexpected.  But the fact still remains that Linux has been around for decades,  has some of the biggest egos in the industry pushing it and still can't seem to overcome even one of the above hurdles.

 

[jagdtigger]

26 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Linux is not stable on desktop (don't tell me it is

Sorry pal but you have no say in what i (or anyone else) can say and cant, especially if its not true. (Except my desktop everything is running some form of linux[popos, kubuntu, raspbian[x86], etc....], plenty of chance to experience instability. Everything running smoothly so far.)

[KaitouX]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

1. people don't like change

2. Linux is not stable on desktop (don't tell me it is, it's stable as a professionally engineered server,  but on desktop it is hit and miss with too many issues from the first install)

3. Linux is not supported by 3rd party apps/cheap hardware well enough

4. Companies like HP, Acer, asus, lenovo, etc have tried/do sell their laptops with Linux, but it was not really viable. Not enough market demand even when properly supported and cheaper.

Often 1, 2 and 4 are caused by 3. 

People are forced to learn new applications because the one they use aren't on Linux, the system difference itself isn't any bigger deal than going from one version of Windows to the next, unless you try something that actually is different like vanilla GNOME.

Lack of proper driver support, documentation and not following standards often causes stability issues.

Even if HP, Lenovo and others OEMs support Linux, the lack of popular applications from Adobe, Autodesk, Microsoft and others force people to learn how to use alternative options if they want to use Linux, and that if can use an alternative and are aware that those alternatives exist.

 

Obviously not all problems are due to that, but solving 3 alone would likely lower a lot the entry barrier of using Linux, and partially fix a lot of the most common issues people have with Linux.

[mr moose]

35 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Sorry pal but you have no say in what i (or anyone else) can say and cant, especially if its not true. (Except my desktop everything is running some form of linux[popos, kubuntu, raspbian[x86], etc....], plenty of chance to experience instability. Everything running smoothly so far.)

You can say whatever you want, but you will never convince me that after 15 years of watching it have a 50/50 chance of working properly for an average user on average hardware (which is the demographic being argued as adequate for).  So don't bother trying.

 

Sure if you're a tech head and you don't mind spending a few hours problem solving and reading complex work arounds on forums then fire away. but the argument is not that it is good for tech heads, but that it is good for the average user,  which it would be if it worked out of the box for the average user.

 

26 minutes ago, KaitouX said:

Often 1, 2 and 4 are caused by 3. 

People are forced to learn new applications because the one they use aren't on Linux, the system difference itself isn't any bigger deal than going from one version of Windows to the next, unless you try something that actually is different like vanilla GNOME.

Lack of proper driver support, documentation and not following standards often causes stability issues.

Even if HP, Lenovo and others OEMs support Linux, the lack of popular applications from Adobe, Autodesk, Microsoft and others force people to learn how to use alternative options if they want to use Linux, and that if can use an alternative and are aware that those alternatives exist.

 

Obviously not all problems are due to that, but solving 3 alone would likely lower a lot the entry barrier of using Linux, and partially fix a lot of the most common issues people have with Linux.

1. can be change by linux itself,  in fact they have tried several times to make distro's that look and feel like windows for that exact reason.  Still wasn't quite enough though.

 

I really don't know about the stability thing being caused by lack of 3rd party support (I was referring to specialized software).  Most hardware these days is standardized. AMD and Nvidia have Linux drivers, most Laptop internal hardware uses USB standards.    So it really shouldn't be hard for really good support.  In fact even the quirky cheap Chinese stuff like USB wifi  dongles shouldn't be too hard to write drivers for seeing as they are all virtually the same.

 

I do agree that getting support while they have no market share is hard and they need that support to get market share (the catch22 is not lost on me), but they have had decades to resolve it and it really doesn't seem that much better placed today than it was back then.

 

 

Don't get me wrong people, I love linux, I have been playing with it for years and years, it was even my daily for about 3-4 years at one point,  I just don't look at it through rose colored glasses.  And I especially don't think it is rational to try and use it to criticize windows when you can't enjoy the majority of the things it does right due the few things it doesn't do well. 

[AnonymousGuy]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

You can say whatever you want, but you will never convince me that after 15 years of watching it have a 50/50 chance of working properly for an average user on average hardware (which is the demographic being argued as adequate for).  So don't bother trying.

 

Off a tangent but the two things that pissed me off about the linux desktop experience:

 

-Self contain installers.  Package managers and repos are fucking stupid.  "I have total control" as you blindly go off and add some random repo and click through five warnings about it and then run some command that goes off and installs 9000 dependencies anyways.

-Self contain apps.  Blowing your apps installation and settings across 5 "standard" directories is fucking stupid.

 

And I put "standard" in quotes because every distro slightly changes everything making it so documentation for one isn't applicable to the other.  And even in the same distro they'll change shit.  God forbid they make an existing thing work...nope...just fork it, rename it, change all the paths and commands and rinse repeat in 12 months.

 

And now that I think about it: if your program doesn't have a GUI for changing settings in 2022...fuck off.  Pretty much every pain point I hit was because it's some cfg file buried somewhere (again a "standard" path that always changes) that's 20,000 lines long of # documentation mixed with the actual settings.  CCProxy on Windows I have a proxy server set up in 30 seconds.  Squid on Ubuntu it's 2 hours of shit you have to do and even then you probably are putting a gaping security hole with some sort of port allow all.

[Mark Kaine]

9 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Self contain installers.  Package managers and repos are fucking stupid.  "I have total control" as you blindly go off and add some random repo and click through five warnings about it and then run some command that goes off and installs 9000 dependencies anyways.

*That* always weirds me out so much about linux and it's why i'll never install it (until changed radically, plus proper UI interface for apps/settings and such obviously)

 

[pythonmegapixel]

9 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

proper UI interface for apps/settings and such obviously

Huh? Looks OK to me...

 

 

I understand being a bit confused by package managers but I think it's a matter of familiarity.  Whenever I have to set up a Windows machine I find it quite  an annoying and overwhelming task to have to go and search for all the software I want in the browser and download their individual installers, and then they all have slightly different UIs.

[Mark Kaine]

15 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

Huh? Looks OK to me...

To me too (i didn't say it has to look nice ) but I think what was meant is individual apps… while i dont have personal experience with it, i know for sure many (popular) linux apps are strictly "CLI" and *that's* what is putting people off. 

 

Windows has CLI only applications too, but thats rather rare, and in my experience at least user interaction often consists of "yes/no" which isnt too challenging. : p

 

[RejZoR]

17 hours ago, -Senku- said:

 

Having no internet used to work as well, i guess that trick pissed them off, but i just did it it the way you showed in images, atleast when testing in vm's

"Used to". Last time I tried that, installer said "hey, you have a functioning WiFi module in your laptop, I want you to make an account or I won't let you past this dumb screen". Not so many words, but literally how it behaved. Even when I tapped Airplane mode it didn't give 2 fucks about it because it detected WiFi device functioning on device. Then i had to go the route of invoking Terminal inside installer and killing off the dumb process that's checking for network connectivity. Then it let me continue. Lets not forget I had Pro version of Win11 on the USB drive and it somehow insisted it's Home. I shit you not the fuckery I had to go through and waste 2 hours of my time dealing this account garbage.

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

And now that I think about it: if your program doesn't have a GUI for changing settings in 2022...fuck off

Because digging in the registry for something that should be presented in their so called "modern" settings app is so much better.... Or having to use CLI to remove bloatware.... The double standard is real....

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, pythonmegapixel said:

find it quite  an annoying and overwhelming task to have to go and search for all the software I want in the browser and download their individual installers, and then they all have slightly different UIs.

i mean sure, thats tedious, which is why its a good idea to have frequently used apps (installers) on an usb stick or something, or just use ninite (which has a similar disadvantage as how it seems to work on linux tho… you'll just have to trust a "random" entity to install  the right stuff…)

 

Thats also why i typically clone my windows install at least, another advantage of that is you'll always have the version of apps you're used to and not some "updated" garbage where half the functions are missing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

And otherwise i seriously just backup every installer so i can always easily reinstall , also apps arent necessarily available forever , so thats another plus.

 

I agree, its also a familiarity thing, but i mean i already know i dont want to download random repos or whatever, i only install what i downloaded myself and ran through  at least MWB and VT … 

 

i mean people often say linux shouldn't copy windows, sure thats their perogative, but imo thats exactly  what linux should do, maybe a bit less convoluted, but the underlying idea of windows is sound -- i said this before, but actually I'd prefer an XMB kinda thing, where you can access almost everything from the "home page", windows almost did that with the "start menu" (did you know Vista had an "XMB" too btw?) but they never really committed fully to that idea (its still the closest to everything accessible from one place we'll get, for now)

 

ps: if you remember the original (Sony) XMB you'll maybe see how close it really is, they (MS) just never really commited fully… there's no horizontal control, for example.

Spoiler

 

^not a mod, just not the win 10 "default" setting either…

 

[Arika]

3 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Because digging in the registry for something that should be presented in their so called "modern" settings app is so much better.... Or having to use CLI to remove bloatware.... The double standard is real....

It's not a double standard, microsoft can fuck off with that too.

[leadeater]

32 minutes ago, Arika S said:

It's not a double standard, microsoft can fuck off with that too.

Also "Digging in to the registry" is code wording for "I'm fucking with shit I shouldn't be", whatever "legitimate" reasoning is given for why 

 

But as always, it's your computer do what you want. Don't need to justify it to me.

[Arika]

Just now, leadeater said:

Also "Digging in to the registry" is coding wording for "I'm fucking with shit I shouldn't be", whatever "legitimate" reasoning is given for why 

Only time I fuck with the registry is to remove the stupid shortcut arrowon icons, and even then I feel uneasy like I'm about to break something 

[Mark Kaine]

37 minutes ago, Arika S said:

It's not a double standard, microsoft can fuck off with that too.

I agree, but i also see why theyre doing it, they dont want to have average joe nuking important system apps (or just spyware tbh) it does make sense in some cases, often its counter productive though , because  when windows doesnt want to play ball users often will turn to  "fixes" from shady sources instead   (aka security through  obscurity gone wrong…)

 

 

Which is by the way exactly  why a ms account will never happen for me, way too risky… so if someone hacks my account they can nuke and read my stuff nilly willy or what? Theres a reason why i always turn off remote access first thing on a new windows install…

 

 

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Also "Digging in to the registry" is code wording for "I'm fucking with shit I shouldn't be",

Its actually called "customization" : D

 

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Its actually called "customization" : D

Very, very ,very ,very few "customizations" need or should be done through registry.

 

Like I said your computer, you don't need to justify what you do. However your bad habits and actions should not be presented in any way as widely applicable or the done thing to anyone else.

[Mark Kaine]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Very, very ,very ,very few "customizations" need or should be done through registry.

 

Like I said your computer, you don't need to justify what you do. However your bad habits and actions should not be presented in any way as widely applicable or the done thing to anyone else.

Maybe, but if you look up how to fix any common windows issue one of the fixes will always be "change something in the registry" and that may or may not be a "customization" setting -- its pretty stupid because people really shouldn't randomly change stuff in the registry, i mean those instructions could simply be wrong and mess stuff up for example… 

 

But sometimes a dev will tell you to do this, then i would say "why not"… 

 

Also, i never said i use registry for "customization" purposes, but i know people do - and often with questionable instructions, but certainly not from me… but as long they know what they're doing thats fine I guess.

 

These are my registry "modifications" for example:

 

running since 3 years, no issues, plus i have backups apparently!  (note i have no idea why hwinfo is there, but im pretty sure it was something the dev told me to do… idr lol)

 

oh and "long paths enabled" because  otherwise Playstation Home (muy importante!) doesnt run…  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

I dunno why i didnt make a backup for that, but apparently it didn't kill my computer!

 

 

 

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Which is by the way exactly  why a ms account will never happen for me, way too risky… so if someone hacks my account they can nuke and read my stuff nilly willy or what? Theres a reason why i always turn off remote access first thing on a new windows install…

1. They need physical access to your machine.
2. Nothing stops you to have 1 account for Windows / Office / Store / etc. and not use it as an actual email... security by obscurity
3. And if you think one day Microsoft will use the platform to sell your data, or you'll be using Edge. Set the age to 35 or better yet 40 years old, and now your data has 0 value to marketing companies. Too old to be sold stuff or get what you like to shape future products and too young for retiring home ads. You may get ads for the next generation filing cabinets though.
4. Use a strong password, and go password-less (Windows Hello technologies, or PIN to login to the system).
5. Remote access to system has been disabled by default since the longest time (well before Win8.. prob since XP as a security update)
6. Use 2-factor authentication
7. Most compromised accounts is really because people use crap passwords.
8. Don't save your credit card info.

 

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Maybe, but if you look up how to fix any common windows issue one of the fixes will always be "change something in the registry" and that may or may not be a "customization" setting -- its pretty stupid because people really shouldn't randomly change stuff in the registry, i mean those instructions could simply be wrong and mess stuff up for example… 

No. It's not for fixing stuff, unless you used a registry cleaner.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Also, i never said i use registry for "customization" purposes, but i know people do - and often with questionable instructions, but certainly not from me… but as long they know what they're doing thats fine I guess.

It is their choice. It is not an obligation to use to perform a task.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

running since 3 years, no issues, plus i have backups apparently!  (note i have no idea why hwinfo is there, but im pretty sure it was something the dev told me to do… idr lol)

Microsoft recommends that applications store their configurations in the registry. It's a database, it's a great place for such task.

A dev/support staff might give you instructions to change something under the program section in the registry. That is fine, it affects the program itself. But bad on the dev to have it's user need to do something. Everything should be designed for users to not need to touch any config... registry.. or file. A common issue with Linux based OS with repos, is that it is easy to add an address, but if you want to remove one... via CLI.. then there is no remove option for many repos (if not all). You need to figure out where the config file is for your repo, open it, and manually remove it. This is important thing to do when you realize the link provided is dead (which is something that often happens, for some reason)... While this is considered "acceptable" under Linux/Unix world. It isn't under any other OS. Another example, is that many open source software who started on Linux, have config files, and no Settings panel, even if the application has GUI... no Settings panel. Or if it does, it has only a handful of options. And it is not because "those in the settings file are not supported" No, it is supported. It's just no one spent the time to add it into the GUI. And the priority is very low for these things. This is because having users going in config files and interact with them is consider, once again, "normal" and "expected" in Linux/Unix world.. but that is the only desktop distros issue (as Linux/Unix early days is based on CLI, and even in Server applications, you just SSH to the machine and CLI away... you don't normally do remote desktop like under Windows... as you don't need the GUI)

 

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

oh and "long paths enabled" because  otherwise Playstation Home (muy importante!) doesnt run…  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Group Policy.

 

Yes I know, Pro edition only... but one can argue that it is a "Pro feature", even though it can be enabled in the home edition, via the registry, like all Group Policies.