Windows 10 and Windows 11 users report issues with stuttering under high CPU loads, with the TPM active {Update, new issues reported. see page 2}

[darknessblade]

Summary

Several users are reporting in forums and on Reddit that there are problems with AMD processors under Windows 11 and Windows 10. An activated TPM 2.0 should be the cause.

 

Quotes

Quote

Several users are reporting in forums and on Reddit that there are problems with AMD processors under Windows 11 and Windows 10. An activated TPM 2.0 should be the cause.

 

My thoughts

As i do not use Windows 11 and have FTPM disabled as a Precaution, so windows does not sneakily update/upgrate to windows 11, i cannot give any opinion on this.

 

The only opinion i have is that this would be yet another reason why Microsoft should remove the TPM requirement for windows 11.

 

Sources

https://windowsreport.com/windows-11-amd-ftpm-stuttering/

https://www.techradar.com/news/windows-11-frame-rate-stuttering-reported-by-some-users-with-amd-cpus

https://www.windowslatest.com/2022/01/26/security-feature-required-to-run-windows-11-is-causing-performance-issues/

https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Windows-11-Software-277633/News/Probleme-mit-AMD-Prozessoren-1387979/

https://www.linux-magazin.de/ausgaben/2017/11/tpm/

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module#Schutz_kryptografischer_Schlüssel

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/pd9vgh/enabling_ftpm_causes_pc_to_stutter/?sort=new
The reddit post links back to the LTT forum

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1353904-amd-ftpm-causing-random-stuttering/

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[Cyberspirit]

I've been on Windows 11 almost since launch and haven't had that issue. Also been running the latest version but not the insider preview one.

[djmakk]

It seems only particular motherboard vendors (and some laptop vendors) are the issue. I've swapped around all kinds of hardware (CPUs, MBs, RAM, SSDs) and still experienced this problem on a fresh Win11 install on Asus boards in particular. I haven't taken the step to RMA the motherboard yet, but others have and the boards they get back have the same issue. Only solution is to roll back to windows 10 and disable fTPM or run windows 11 with fTPM disabled and risk some issues with microsoft. 

[TrigrH]

2 hours ago, djmakk said:

Only solution is to roll back to windows 10 and disable fTPM or run windows 11 with fTPM disabled and risk some issues with microsoft. 

An add-on TPM also fixes the issue apparently.

[djmakk]

17 minutes ago, TrigrH said:

An add-on TPM also fixes the issue apparently.

Wasnt something I could explore as both b550 boards I have from asus dont have one, but yes ive heard that too. 

[StDragon]

Regarding Windows 10 and 11, has anyone confirmed the issue is resolved when ensuring the BIOS, chipset drivers, and audio drivers are updated?

[da na]

My Asus laptop would sometimes randomly be working fine then go EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE for 4 seconds then back to fine on the early Insider preview. Not dev channel, the next one down. Ryzen 5, Zen+; fixed at release though...

[circeseye]

asus x570 tuff gaming, x5800, been on win11 now since nov...no audio issues or studdering ive seen

newest bios and chipset

[Kisai]

7 hours ago, darknessblade said:

Summary

Several users are reporting in forums and on Reddit that there are problems with AMD processors under Windows 11 and Windows 10. An activated TPM 2.0 should be the cause.

 

Quotes

 

My thoughts

As i do not use Windows 11 and have FTPM disabled as a Precaution, so windows does not sneakily update/upgrate to windows 11, i cannot give any opinion on this.

 

The only opinion i have is that this would be yet another reason why Microsoft should remove the TPM requirement for windows 11.

 

Sources

https://windowsreport.com/windows-11-amd-ftpm-stuttering/

https://www.techradar.com/news/windows-11-frame-rate-stuttering-reported-by-some-users-with-amd-cpus

https://www.windowslatest.com/2022/01/26/security-feature-required-to-run-windows-11-is-causing-performance-issues/

https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Windows-11-Software-277633/News/Probleme-mit-AMD-Prozessoren-1387979/

https://www.linux-magazin.de/ausgaben/2017/11/tpm/

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module#Schutz_kryptografischer_Schlüssel

------------
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/pd9vgh/enabling_ftpm_causes_pc_to_stutter/?sort=new
The reddit post links back to the LTT forum

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1353904-amd-ftpm-causing-random-stuttering/

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Just FYI... Windows 11 has become an "optional update" if you have a habit of installing all updates. Up until yesterday, the notification about Windows 11 was down below, and if you don't click "maybe later/not now" it will actually block installing the current updates for 10.

 

So just be aware that many people might have accidently updated to 11 after updating their BIOS and which makes the fTPM active by default (which is what ASUS boards do.)

[darknessblade]

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

Just FYI... Windows 11 has become an "optional update" if you have a habit of installing all updates. Up until yesterday, the notification about Windows 11 was down below, and if you don't click "maybe later/not now" it will actually block installing the current updates for 10.

 

So just be aware that many people might have accidently updated to 11 after updating their BIOS and which makes the fTPM active by default (which is what ASUS boards do.)

Even if it is optional, it could still happen that you accidentally click it.

I just disabled FTPM as a precaution. just to block it even from installing automatically, when i also update drivers/other software

[Kisai]

19 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

Even if it is optional, it could still happen that you accidentally click it.

I just disabled FTPM as a precaution. just to block it even from installing automatically, when i also update drivers/other software

Yeah I thought I had disabled it after the BIOS update but it doesn't look like it's an option now. Which is fine. I don't intend on updating to 11 until 11's been out long enough.

 

And good gawd I do not like the changes to the cut and paste. Now you expect me to remember the icons? bring back the text labels.

[darknessblade]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Yeah I thought I had disabled it after the BIOS update but it doesn't look like it's an option now. Which is fine. I don't intend on updating to 11 until 11's been out long enough.

 

And good gawd I do not like the changes to the cut and paste. Now you expect me to remember the icons? bring back the text labels.

It would be even worse if they start removing the shortcut Keys like CTRL-A, CTRL-X, CTRL-C, CTRL-V.

 

if that happens they will get  a massive amount of hate over themselves.

 

Like you want to force everyone to use tablet features, and do 15 presses just to cut a portion of text when 5 would suffice

[mouse-Click-> select, CTRL-X -> CTRL-V]

 

with Tablet modus it would be

 

Mouse/stylus Click to select-> click on the 3 dots [open up cut/paste menu] [hope you did not deselect the text/files] -> Click on Cut -> [go to area to paste] -> click on 3 dots again [hope you don't miss click again] -> press on paste. 

 

And this is just a small example, if you have to do a massive amount of text, or files, the amount of additional clicks would keep stacking up, and decrease productivity.

[Doobeedoo]

Can companies stop with sw/hw DRM nonsense..

[RejZoR]

How to even disable god damn TPM ? Even if I set from Firmware to Discrete and erase NV, next boot it's magically set to Firmware again and shown in Device Security panel. Dafuck? I can't even try without it to see if I'm getting the stuttering or not as I'm not sure whether it's game or my system.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

How to even disable god damn TPM ?

Did you tap some keys like a mad man after reboot? Some laptops/mobos will have a confirmation screen after you reboot if you really want to change those settings.

[S w a t s o n]

I wouldn't say under high load, it used to happen to me in W10 under minimal load, like youtube. Surprised this is "news" because it's been happening basically since I got this video card months ago (reinstalled windows) and I thought it was the card but then I hear about this. Still waiting to see if I fixed it for sure for sure

On 1/29/2022 at 4:31 PM, S w a t s o n said:

Well well well naughty ASUS. I've been having this issue with my X570 Dark Hero + 5950x on W10 for months and months and I can't disable fTPM at all on current or latest BIOS.

Downgraded to ASUS 3601 BIOS, disabled fTPM and re-did overclock. Everything seems fine so far

[ThreePinkApples]

Not that it helps anyone, but I have ASUS Crosshair VIII Hero Wi-Fi on the AGESA 1.2.0.3 Patch C BIOS (newest is 1.2.0.5) and have had fTPM turned on for months (since long before that BIOS), haven't seen any sign of the described issues. (Running Windows 10 still). So it's not automatically an ASUS issues at least.

[RejZoR]

Can't say if I encountered such stuttering on my system.

[HenrySalayne]

Happens on my system as well. It didn't bother me enough to take a look into it but it could have started when I activated the previously disabled iTPM. I will disable it and report back.

 

[Thaldor]

On 1/30/2022 at 6:47 PM, RejZoR said:

How to even disable god damn TPM ? Even if I set from Firmware to Discrete and erase NV, next boot it's magically set to Firmware again and shown in Device Security panel. Dafuck? I can't even try without it to see if I'm getting the stuttering or not as I'm not sure whether it's game or my system.

Which BIOS are you running? I have the older 4002 and I have no problems X570-E staying on the "Discrete TPM" option, at least after couple reboots.

 

I thought it was just my extremely old Win10 install that had again gained some hiccups from something gone sideways and it would be fixed by the time but disabling firmware TPM seems to have cured the hiccups, so carefully saying ASUS Strix X570-E (older 4002 BIOS and probably older drivers) + R7 3700X may encounter stuttering.

[suicidalfranco]

Reminds me that it's been a long time since I last booted on my windows partition

[hishnash]

This is expected, unlike other security systems TMP does not do the cryptographic work itself it just stores keys, any encryption, signing, validation etc takes place on the cpu and is handled at a level (hopefully) inaccessible to the os (so your not going to see it in task manager) this means that the OS scheduler can't handle it!

If such a task is triggered (such as when you read data from the SSD it needs to be decrypted) the cpu will go ahead and use the needed compute power to do that regardless of what the user is doing. 

this is why a solution like the T2 is better (but costs a lot more) were the security chip acts as the SSD controller and itself includes the needed silicon to do all the encryption, decryption, signature validation etc. Doing it this way means for the main cpu you do not end up with a cpu overhead from a background encryption/decryption tasks (or other validation tasks) but doing it this way does cost a LOT more as that security chip needs to do all of the work (the T2 was a re-used iPhone SoC).  

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

...when you read data from the SSD it needs to be decrypted) the cpu will go ahead and use the needed compute power to do that regardless of what the user is doing.

FYI, I've been running a 5800x on an X570 Taichi with fTPM and Bitlocker enabled on my OS boot volume for months now. I haven't experienced any symptoms as described in the article.

 

Though my read/write performance is reduced by 15% from what otherwise is a Samsung 980 Pro (PCIe 4.0), its not noticeable when gaming or working with VMs in lab environment. But as far as the small (but not insignificant) performance hit, that more of a bottle-neck of the AES-NI instruction set on the CPU. Reading at 5.7GB/s isn't too bad for an encrypted drive.

 

And yes, leveraging the NVMe to do the encryption via eDrive (Opal 2.0) would be far more performant, I chose going software based due to bare-metal backup and restoration needs.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, hishnash said:

This is expected, unlike other security systems TMP does not do the cryptographic work itself it just stores keys, any encryption, signing, validation etc takes place on the cpu and is handled at a level (hopefully) inaccessible to the os (so your not going to see it in task manager) this means that the OS scheduler can't handle it!

All Ryzen CPUs have a Security Processor, fTPM functions are done there and not by the OS/CPU threads.

 

Quote

The PSP itself represents an ARM core with the TrustZone extension which is inserted into the main CPU die as a coprocessor.

 

The "T2 Chip" is inside the CPU, loosely speaking if we want to use Apple terminology. PSP is != to T2 though, T2 does more.

 

In any case these performance issues are not because the CPU or the PSP is too slow and not because fTPM is enabled, if it were purely that then it would always be slow and problematic for everyone always and that's not the case. The why is probably annoying, complex and fixable.

 

Every modern CPU has encryption offload engines as well anyway, they can handle many gigabytes of data per second just fine with little to no affect on the main functions and processing of the CPU cores.

[RejZoR]

9 hours ago, Thaldor said:

Which BIOS are you running? I have the older 4002 and I have no problems X570-E staying on the "Discrete TPM" option, at least after couple reboots.

 

I thought it was just my extremely old Win10 install that had again gained some hiccups from something gone sideways and it would be fixed by the time but disabling firmware TPM seems to have cured the hiccups, so carefully saying ASUS Strix X570-E (older 4002 BIOS and probably older drivers) + R7 3700X may encounter stuttering.

I've found that TPM control is under separate menu for ASUS which is stupid.