China declares all crypto-currency transactions illegal

[TetraSky]

Everyone who dislike the entire idea of cryptocurrency for various reason :

 

Crypto evangelists :
"buy the dip and hodl"

 

 

Honestly, this just means the transactions will take place outside of China. Won't do much of anything.

[leadeater]

35 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Honestly, this just means the transactions will take place outside of China. Won't do much of anything.

I sort of wonder how the Chinese crypto farms stayed on the crypto networks. Like I know you can get around many firewalls and various other network level blocks but if you consider that internet access in China is not "free access" and the central government has been anti-crypto why haven't they been blocking it or why hasn't it been more of a problem staying on the network.

 

Maybe that has been a problem, I don't know, but I've not heard of any battles between the crypto farmers and the firewall blocking of it.

 

Seems weird 

[williamcll]

9 hours ago, CTR640 said:

Crypto is crashing? Don't worry! Elon will save the day with his tweet and everyone can breathe from relief.

Elon's got a breakup to deal with.

 

Imagine paying child support with cryptos.

[Brooksie359]

5 hours ago, tikker said:

They have done various anti-crypto measures. The Evergrande situation carries other concerns though. I should read up on it more, but to my knowledge so far: Evergrande owes a lot of people a lot of money and cannot pay their dues. The people that Evergrande owes money to owe other people a lot of money. If Evergrande goes bankrupt a lot of debts probably disappear (a "perk" of bankruptcy) and hence a lot of people will lose a lot of money. This brings the real "Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt" (FUD)  to the market. It makes people want their dues paid even more. Not only by Evergrande directly, but tons of other people will start demanding their dues from those secondary parties, you can see the chain reaction happening.

 

Furthermore investors will lose trust in the stockmarket concerning Evergrande and will want out. Selling shares at a massive rate will tank the worth. Undoubtedly there will be leveraged trades going (i.e. trades where you can buy more than the money you put in). If stock price drops enough, those positions will be liquidated just like we saw with Bitcoin like 1-2 weeks(?) ago both losing people tons of money and tanking the price further, et voilà you have another chain reaction.

 

I think in my simple understanding the latter is where crypto comes in: find someone to buy your shares and buy crypto from it instead and you are "safely" detached from China's economy. That in itself is also again bad for their economy, because it shows distrust in the economy, and is what they wan to avoid with this (besides their usual crackdown on crypto).

From what I understand is evergrande is in their current predicament because they were running their company in a way that would fail as soon as the prices of houses started to decline. China had ironically put in place something called the three red lines which was something that told companies what practices they shouldn't do and apparently evergrande did all of those things. It's crazy how companies somehow get so big yet run their business is such risky manners and the biggest problem being that once they are thar big they are basically a financial crisis waiting to happen because if they go the economy tanks. 

[Lightwreather]

11 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

Chinese real estate company that missed a debt payment deadline ... not good news as they have real estate investments around the world.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-evergrande-bondholders-limbo-over-debt-resolution-2021-09-24/

 

 

11 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Its relevant as the leading theory is that the CCP are worried that property investors are going to try to convert all their assets into crypto and send it all offshore before the market crash happens.

 

Evergrande owe at lot of people a metric fuck tonne of money, market analysts are warning their collapse will be on the same scale as when the Lehman Brothers collapsed.

Thanks

 

[Lightwreather]

7 hours ago, RoseLuck462 said:

Hopefully this will reduce the amount of GPU and other tech scalping.

Somehow I doubt it

[DrMacintosh]

Crypto investors are in shambles rn. A market can’t just lose essentially its biggest consumer/producer and “bounce back.” If it does, the market is in a massive bubble. 

[Moonzy]

26 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Crypto investors are in shambles rn. A market can’t just lose essentially its biggest consumer/producer and “bounce back.” If it does, the market is in a massive bubble. 

i mean... anyone who is in the news would have seen this coming... months away

[Roswell]

Good, hopefully other countries follow suit.

 

The disgusting amount of wasted energy and garbage thrown into the atmosphere to mine these fantasy coins that still serve no tangible purchase outside of trading needs to stop.

[Master Disaster]

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Good, hopefully other countries follow suit.

 

The disgusting amount of wasted energy and garbage thrown into the atmosphere to mine these fantasy coins that still serve no tangible purchase outside of trading needs to stop.

Replace...

 

crypto with gaming

mine these fantasy coins with provide us entertainment

and

outside of trading with, well nothing really

 

...and suddenly this entire position gets scary.

 

TBC I'm not defending Crypto, I happen to agree with the sentiment you're making. I will however defend peoples right to mine crypto is that's what they want to do otherwise where does it stop? What real purpose does music, art, gaming, movies, sports and competition, travel and tourism etc etc actually serve?

 

There's lots of things that lots of people do lots of times per day that waste energy to provide nothing but entertainment or enjoyment.

 

But yeah, the amount of wastage crypto generates is on a whole new level.

 

[Zodiark1593]

4 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Replace...

 

crypto with gaming

mine these fantasy coins with provide us entertainment

and

outside of trading with, well nothing really

 

...and suddenly this entire position gets scary.

 

TBC I'm not defending Crypto, I happen to agree with the sentiment you're making. I will however defend peoples right to mine crypto is that's what they want to do otherwise where does it stop? What real purpose does music, art, gaming, movies, sports and competition, travel and tourism etc etc actually serve?

 

There's lots of things that lots of people do lots of times per day that waste energy to provide nothing but entertainment or enjoyment.

 

But yeah, the amount of wastage crypto generates is on a whole new level.

 

A shame we can’t make a viable crypto where mining involves removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. 

[Master Disaster]

5 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

A shame we can’t make a viable crypto where mining involves removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. 

Yeah, unfortunately for us, Utopia doesn't exist and at this point Dystopia seems inevitable.

[Lightwreather]

12 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

A shame we can’t make a viable crypto where mining involves removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. 

True,

Same goes for a lot of other things too......

But one can hope

[Kisai]

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Replace...

 

crypto with gaming

mine these fantasy coins with provide us entertainment

 

 

This argument will always fall flat, because entertainment at least employs people to create entertainment where as cryptomining only lines the pockets of greedy people at the expense of the environment. One data center full of 10,000 crypto miners might employ exactly one person, yet use the amount of energy of 100,000 people, and consume resources (eg silicon chips) that are badly needed by other industries that do employ people.

 

s/ Now what is the right angle here? /s

 

There is none. There is simply no practical need or use for cryptocoins. It would be different if this was used correctly to prevent cheating in video games by making the client-pc's consume energy to generate the "gold" they earn in game, but that would still be a fixed amount so someone can't just buy a $10,000 PC and get further than someone playing on a $300 Nintendo switch, nor run 10 copies of the game and funnel the gold to their main account.

 

Like the irony in all this is that the base functionality, the logistics of how data secured was always a good point of cryptographic blockchains, but ultimately using it for anything that resembles money attracts the worst people to it, making it worthless to anyone but greedy fools.

 

Governments should have either:

a) increased the cost of dirty electricity to make it unattractive to mine with

or

b) require anyone trading crypto to only do it with accounts monitored for money laundering compliance via investment brokerages, and the banks are not to offer any margin, options, and short selling for crypto.

 

[Lightwreather]

32 minutes ago, Kisai said:

a) increased the cost of dirty electricity to make it unattractive to mine with

This tbh, would benefit a lot more people than the other options,

but then again, the same governments are likely subsidising those sources of electricity so..... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[jagdtigger]

23 hours ago, BuckGup said:

wait 8 years and you'll be a multi-millionaire.

I dont think crypto is going to be a thing in 8 years so better prepare a plan b. If it becomes too big govts will coordinte a global seizure of servers holding the blockchain (the IP of those is easily obtainable).... If you want to invest in something buy gold.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

This argument will always fall flat, because entertainment at least employs people to create entertainment where as cryptomining only lines the pockets of greedy people at the expense of the environment. One data center full of 10,000 crypto miners might employ exactly one person, yet use the amount of energy of 100,000 people, and consume resources (eg silicon chips) that are badly needed by other industries that do employ people.

Playing the devil's advocate: from an energy  perspective they are equally bad, so what if these "entertainers" did "actually useful" jobs such as construction, engineering, helping advance medicine and green energy.

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Governments should have either:

a) increased the cost of dirty electricity to make it unattractive to mine with

or

b) require anyone trading crypto to only do it with accounts monitored for money laundering compliance via investment brokerages, and the banks are not to offer any margin, options, and short selling for crypto.

 I'm all-in for a). Point b) is already being rolled out. All of the major exchanges have to do ID verification to comply with the AML regulations, and scrutiny is increasing towards their malpractises. Binance is under almost constant fire for example for illegally operating or having operated probably everywhere by now, and now suspicions of insider trading. It's not the lawless wasteland it was at the beginning. Not allowing margin and such I would imagine to be more difficult, because then (in my opinion) they'd have to ban margin trading on the stock market as well (not necessarily a bad thing I guess).

 

39 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

I dont think crypto is going to be a thing in 8 years so better prepare a plan b.

Said all of us 8 years ago. Wish I would have loaded up back then.

39 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

If it becomes too big govts will coordinte a global seizure of servers holding the blockchain (the IP of those is easily obtainable)...

This isn't as easy as it sounds. Anyone can setup a validator node and a copy of the blockchain can and does exist behind every corner. You can see e.g. China's crackdowns causing merely brief blips but overall not really disrupting things. It's a nice demonstration of a decentralised system. If they want it gone they should just outright ban it, at which point they will themselves make it the dark underworld of illegal market places again that some think the majority is.

39 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

If you want to invest in something buy gold.

Gold is more for stability and store of value, in other words, not what crypto investors are typically after.

[jagdtigger]

32 minutes ago, tikker said:

Said all of us 8 years ago. Wish I would have loaded up back then.

IDK why it gets tolerated but at some point it will happen.

 

34 minutes ago, tikker said:

. Anyone can setup a validator node and a copy of the blockchain can and does exist behind every corner.

And it has to be globally reachable which means public IP, which can be tied to its physical location. Its not as hard as you make it seem.

[Zodiark1593]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

If you want to trade in something buy options.

Fixed, because the sort of people trading in Crypto are not looking for stability. They want volatility. 
 

The more intelligent investors probably have plenty of gold, ETFs and other, more stable assets, and utilize a small portion of a portfolio for crypto and other such volatile assets. Not the worst way to do it tbh. Make some decent gains on riskier trades, put most of the gains into more solid investments, rinse and repeat. 

[Guest]

Gotta think if the economy of this type of currency is actually relevant. 

 

None of this Crypto stuff actually seems to have any or no impact in my personal life. 

 

Therefor I cannot miss the currency as I've never used it. For anything.

 

For a simple example in question form....

 

"Has anyone from this forum gotten filthy rich from Crypto mining?" (I bet not)

 

Oh well. It's illegal in China now. (Good or bad? I don't think it matters)

[Master Disaster]

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

This argument will always fall flat, because entertainment at least employs people to create entertainment where as cryptomining only lines the pockets of greedy people at the expense of the environment. One data center full of 10,000 crypto miners might employ exactly one person, yet use the amount of energy of 100,000 people, and consume resources (eg silicon chips) that are badly needed by other industries that do employ people.

 

s/ Now what is the right angle here? /s

 

There is none. There is simply no practical need or use for cryptocoins. It would be different if this was used correctly to prevent cheating in video games by making the client-pc's consume energy to generate the "gold" they earn in game, but that would still be a fixed amount so someone can't just buy a $10,000 PC and get further than someone playing on a $300 Nintendo switch, nor run 10 copies of the game and funnel the gold to their main account.

 

Like the irony in all this is that the base functionality, the logistics of how data secured was always a good point of cryptographic blockchains, but ultimately using it for anything that resembles money attracts the worst people to it, making it worthless to anyone but greedy fools.

 

Governments should have either:

a) increased the cost of dirty electricity to make it unattractive to mine with

or

b) require anyone trading crypto to only do it with accounts monitored for money laundering compliance via investment brokerages, and the banks are not to offer any margin, options, and short selling for crypto.

 

I don't disagree with you at all but I still stand by my point, as long as it remains within the law people should be allowed to do/think/believe anything they want.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

IDK why it gets tolerated but at some point it will happen.

Anything will at some point happen. With that mindset nothing is safe to invest in or use. From an investing point of view I don't really care if it collapses in 1 or 10 years. I hope it will survive longer, but in the end it's about securing some money like with every other investment.

59 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

And it has to be globally reachable which means public IP, which can be tied to its physical location. Its not as hard as you make it seem.

It's similar to the piracy hydra really. Chop off one head and two more will grow back. There's also VPNs (which can be forced to analyse traffic and check for crypto related traffic of course, but that would probably tank reputation) and Tor. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's also not just killing a few servers and done.

38 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Gotta think if the economy of this type of currency is actually relevant. 

 

None of this Crypto stuff actually seems to have any or no impact in my personal life. 

 

Therefor I cannot miss the currency as I've never used it. For anything.

 

For a simple example in question form....

 

"Has anyone from this forum gotten filthy rich from Crypto mining?" (I bet not)

 

Oh well. It's illegal in China now. (Good or bad? I don't think it matters)

I think it only really significantly effects economies that aren't great already, like 3rd world countries. Countries with a strong economy of their own just stick to their own and don't really care apart from a fraud point of view. I would wager most on this forum have gotten in too late to get filthy rich from crypto, but I'm sure people have made some nice profits.

[jagdtigger]

7 minutes ago, tikker said:

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's also not just killing a few servers and done.

A surprise attack would probably wipe the network, besides that they can also just force-close crypto exchanges and outlaw it so no-one can accept it as a payment option. If ppl cant buy anything with it and cannot be exchanged for real money it will collapse rather quickly.

 

7 minutes ago, tikker said:

With that mindset nothing is safe to invest in or use.

BTC is way too shady to be trusted. China has ulterior motives even i admit that but their reasoning is valid. BTC is practically the wet dream of speculants and criminals.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, tikker said:

 

I think it only really significantly effects economies that aren't great already, like 3rd world countries. Countries with a strong economy of their own just stick to their own and don't really care apart from a fraud point of view. I would wager most on this forum have gotten in too late to get filthy rich from crypto, but I'm sure people have made some nice profits.

You mean 3rd world country's governments. It's obvious the general public is too poor to build a crypto mining farm to make this currency useful to even say the average blue collar workers even here in America.

 

Crypto has been unstable since day one. It will take a lot of adoption to implement into the world's economy let alone a single country.

[Kisai]

16 hours ago, tikker said:

Playing the devil's advocate: from an energy  perspective they are equally bad, so what if these "entertainers" did "actually useful" jobs such as construction, engineering, helping advance medicine and green energy.

to investors are typically after.

You're making the mistake that all people are equally efficient and competent no matter what job they have. It's VERY VERY far from the case.

 

Have you seen "Canada's Worst Driver" or similar shows where they find people who really should have never been allowed to buy, let alone drive, a car? Now compare that with say "Undercover Boss", "Dirty Jobs" or even "Mythbusters"

 

The common point here is that people always think more of themselves than they really are worth. Especially people who manage other people. We are better off letting people work in the jobs they are competent in and not trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Most people in entertainment, if they were not in entertainment, and were not "trust fund babies" would not qualify for any job more complicated than a supermarket cashier/coffee-shop barista because there are no transferrable skills from entertainment if there is no art industry. A stage carpenter is not going to become a home carpenter, an actor is not going to become a cashier, and a sound engineer is not going to become an ultrasound lab tech.

 

Let's say one day that all television and video games that are not produced directly by the government are banned. Suddenly your value as a person had dropped immensely. If you work in games in the programming side, maybe you can be repurposed as a software developer, but if you're an art, music or voice actor, SOL. Those jobs have been destroyed by the government mandating that nobody can play games longer than 40 minutes a week, and nobody can watch more than 3 hours of TV a week. Unless you are exporting the game/tv show overseas, you've basically had your job security destroyed in an instant, because the domestic market will no longer be permitted to play your game or watch your show. (I'm saying this while pointing that Netease and miHoYo are both Chinese companies who export popular games to the West, and Netflix has been picking up Chinese tv series/films)

 

The entertainment industry is more than just the actors. One television production employs directly, or indirectly far more people than those that would be needed to construct a residential tower. If you've watched a credits roll on a film, the credits can be as long as 15 minutes, crediting every single person in a business unit which may or may not have had more than a few minutes involvement with the film. Plus the people who get the big paychecks in a film or television production also directly employ others in the food service industry during the production.

 

Again. The point being made here, is that (even bad) entertainment is worth more to the economy than cryptocoins are (which contribute nothing, only take.)