Windows 11 to release on Oct 5th, No Android App support at launch

[Kisai]

13 hours ago, HerrKaLeu said:

You mean iOS also supports android apps and that is why it is a "must have" feature for W11? 

 

MacOS X can run iOS/iPadOS software. That's why it's feature pairity. Windows (10) does not run ANY mobile software period, and getting mobile software to work (eg Bluestacks and MEmu) is rife with adware/malware.

 

Presumably Microsoft will lock down the Android subsystem so that it only runs software purchased legitimately, via google play, but in practice, I don't see this happening since it's likely being implemented as a way to develop android software without having to install all the garbage you need to install to get an Android development environment setup. 

 

Meanwhile, all you need to develop for iOS is a Mac running OSX and the same XCode that you develop desktop apps with.

 

Feature parity is a desirable thing, especially since iOS software makes far more money than Android.

[LAwLz]

36 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

„I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.“

—  Winston S. Churchill

I just think it's weird that Microsoft made a decision (according to leadeater) based on data they can not possibly have had before they made the decision.

Either Microsoft has access to a time machine, or they cut off support and are now looking for data to justify cutting support. If you ask me, you should have evidence and data before making a chance.

 

Not to mention that all the security features Microsoft have touted for Windows 11 already exists in Windows 10, and works on older hardware as well.

Oh, HVCI sounds really neat. I am sure that will help security in Windows 11... As well as Windows 10 since it has been enabled by default since April 2018 on new Windows 10 installs... As for hardware acceleration of this, Microsoft are cutting support for CPUs that have hardware support for it, and correct me if I am wrong but some CPUs Microsoft are choosing to support do not have hardware acceleration support for it, so the whole "it's for performance reasons" is bullshit. In fact, the person who wrote this article (probably David Weston) have actually said that the hardware cutoff was NOT because of some feature missing in older CPUs.

 

Oh, TPM is neat. It would be great if all PCs had that... Which they basically do because it has been a requirement since July 2016. And yes, you can have TPMs in PCs with CPUs older than 8th gen Intel or Ryzen 2000.

 

 

 

  

19 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Presumably Microsoft will lock down the Android subsystem so that it only runs software purchased legitimately, via google play, but in practice, I don't see this happening since it's likely being implemented as a way to develop android software without having to install all the garbage you need to install to get an Android development environment setup. 

I don't think we need to be worried about Microsoft locking their emulator down, and I strongly doubt this is a push for Android developers on Windows.

Microsoft has confirmed that their emulator does not ship with Google Play Services. Hopefully we will be able to add that ourselves (unofficially) but if not, then a lot of apps straight up won't work in the emulator. No apps that uses any Google services for example will work.

[leadeater]

52 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

1) Source?

2) Microsoft published the specifications before they started the Insider Program, so it seems weird for them to justify their requirements with evidence gathered after the announcement. Self fulfilling prophesy? A blatant lie? Who knows.

It's in one of the other Windows 11 threads, I'll find it later and post it.

 

52 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Do you think that raising hardware requirements has zero impact on the amount of hardware sales?

I think it's statically insignificant over any other Windows operating system release and in general. See point about what people think is a large amount of people and what actually is a large amount of people in the full picture.

 

52 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Do you not think that when for example Samsung drops support for their phones, that leads to more hardware sales? Do you not think that companies are interested in having more customers if they already have what you deem is "enough customers" already?

For mobile phones actually I do not. People's primary reason for upgrading phones is because they simply want the new one or they have damaged their current one in some way.

 

Neither are mobile phones all the comparable to laptops and desktops either.

 

52 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Facts are facts. Microsoft has spent time and effort actively blocking people from upgrading to Windows 11. There has to be some reason for it. I can't find any reason for this change other than it might increase sales by pushing some users that were on the fence about upgrading their old PCs over that fence. That's it. No other argument makes sense to me.

Yes and we've been through the reasons why and you refuse to accept that a strategic plan and an intentional level of feature support is the reason. This is exceedingly the most likely reason above everything with more than enough published justification for why by Microsoft and independent security experts.

 

Have a go at AMD and Intel if you want to keep down this path, as I've pointed out both are directly to blame for why they have recent products that are not supported that could have been, Intel the most.

 

But if you want to jump down corporate conspiracy theories then all the power to you, theories are theories after all.

[LAwLz]

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's in one of the other Windows 11 threads, I'll find it later and post it.

Looking forward to seeing it.

 

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I think it's statically insignificant over any other Windows operating system release and in general. See point about what people think is a large amount of people and what actually is a large amount of people in the full picture.

And you base this assumption on what exactly? Seems to me like you're just making as big of an assumption as I am.

I think a significant amount of people will want to buy new PCs because of these requirements and you don't think so. Neither of us has any evidence or numbers to back those assumptions up though. The reason why I think my stance is more likely true is because there are no other reasons I can think of for the requirements to exist to begin with.

 

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yes and we've been through the reasons why and you refuse to accept that a stargate plan and an intentionally level of feature support is the reason. This is exceedingly the most likely reason above everything with more than enough published justification for why by Microsoft and independent security experts.

 

But if you want to jump down corporate conspiracy theories then all the power to you, theories are theories after all.

I don't think planned obsolescence is a "stargate plan" or a very wild corporate conspiracy theory.

I think planned obsolescence is the most logical, likely and boring explanation in this case.

 

Also, what do you mean by "theories are just theories after all"? Is that suppose to be an insult or something?

Also, can you link me to some of those independent security experts that say that cutting support for 7th gen Intel processors and 1st gen Ryzen processors benefits security? I would loooove to see them. The reason why I am asking this is because I have several articles from independent security researchers which are heavily criticizing Microsoft for it. Here is one article from Davey Winder for example. If you are well versed in cybersecurity you have probably heard of him. Here is a quote from the article:

Quote

Microsoft is also beating the Windows 11 security drum and beating it hard by talking up how it features the strongest protection against malware yet. However, it's the claim that Windows 11 will "raise the security baseline" to protect against ransomware that has got many infosecurity professionals scratching their collective heads.

That statement seems to fly in the face of what you are claiming, and your claims do not match my experience at all either, when talking to security experts.

(Side note: The article I posted is about TPM and it actually think it's a good thing, but very overhyped by Microsoft. Also, the reason why I posted an article about a TPM when my issue is with the CPU requirements is because I have legitimately not been able to find a single article from a security expert talking about the 7th gen and 1000 series cutoff, especially not one saying it will improve security in any way shape or form).

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The reason why I think my stance is more likely true is because there are no other reasons I can think of for the requirements to exist to begin with.

Your inability to think of a reason you want to believe is not a reason for why people will go out and buy a new computer, these two things have nothing to do with each other.

 

Edit:

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Neither of us has any evidence or numbers to back those assumptions up though

I don't, I'm sorry I didn't realize computer sales reports which I compared across many years and Microsoft's financial reports looking specifically at Windows (OEM and Consumer) as much as Microsoft makes possible wasn't evidence. Damn sight better than anything you have provided.

 

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I don't think planned obsolescence is a "stargate plan" or a very wild corporate conspiracy theory.

Oh great not again. Please stop ignoring my points. I'll just never reply again because you are intentionally making it impossible to have the conversation in the first place.

 

A strategic plan, the one I have already talked about before with you, is one that a company designs a product around a feature set and standards. Yes you are correct in pointing out Windows 10 already has all (or most) of these security features however they are not enabled by default if you do not have the hardware support for them. Other than CPU generation all of the hardware requirements have been a requirement for Windows 10 branding since 2016 (year going of memory).

[LAwLz]

Just now, leadeater said:

Your inability to think of a reason you want to believe is not a reason for why people will go out and buy a new computer, these two things have nothing to do with each other.

Okay, can you give me some reasons why 7th gen Intel and 1000 gen Ryzen processors are no longer supported?

So far you have mentioned that they have fewer crashes as of the Windows 11 beta, but that was statistics that didn't exist when Microsoft made the decision so that is not a valid justification unless, as I said earlier, Microsoft has access to a time machine. At best that can be a justification for keeping the requirements, but it can not be the reason why Microsoft came up with the requirements to begin with.

 

Any other reason you can think of?

[Blademaster91]

17 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I don't think planned obsolescence is a "stargate plan" or a very wild corporate conspiracy theory.

I think planned obsolescence is the most logical, likely and boring explanation in this case.

I definitely think it's planned obsolescence, and it's no different than phone OEM's using security as a marketing point, while they do things like lock out the bootloader and tell you its because of security, except you really get less ownership of the hardware and are forced to replace it.

Microsoft wanting to push TPM is fine, as most CPU's since 2016 have it and it's easy to enable, but TPM doesn't do much without having bitlocker, which Microsoft won't let home users have, so it won't protect the average user from using weak passwords, or opening a ransomware email.

And if Microsoft has a deal with Intel and wants to release Win 11 by October, possibly just before Alder Lake, then thats even more reason for me to suspect there is a collaboration with OEM's to get people to buy new PC's. I think it's just a weird position for MS to take, because we're still in a silicon shortage, and ditching support for Intel 7th gen and Ryzen 1000 series including the 2000 series APU's with Zen 1 cpu cores means Windows PC's will have less of a support cycle than Apple macs do.

[KaitouX]

Quote

Reliability: Devices that do not meet the minimum system requirements had 52% more kernel mode crashes. Devices that do meet the minimum system requirements had a 99.8% crash free experience.

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/08/27/update-on-windows-11-minimum-system-requirements-and-the-pc-health-check-app/

 

52% more crashes on unsupported systems, while supported systems were 99.8% crash free. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean a 0.1% absolute increase, as it is 52% more than the 0.2%?

For me this really looks like Microsoft is trying to find something to justify the cut-off after the fact.

 

Also:

Quote

After carefully analyzing the first generation of AMD Zen processors in partnership with AMD, together we concluded that there are no additions to the supported CPU list.

What about the 1600AF? It is basically a 2600 hardware wise right?

This doesn't really make sense for me. It's hard to think a 1700X and others would have worse experience than all those 2c/2t CPUs that are supported.

[Lurick]

18 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Okay, can you give me some reasons why 7th gen Intel and 1000 gen Ryzen processors are no longer supported?

So far you have mentioned that they have fewer crashes as of the Windows 11 beta, but that was statistics that didn't exist when Microsoft made the decision so that is not a valid justification unless, as I said earlier, Microsoft has access to a time machine. At best that can be a justification for keeping the requirements, but it can not be the reason why Microsoft came up with the requirements to begin with.

 

Any other reason you can think of?

Virtualization Based Security (VBS), among other things, that older CPUs lack the hardware implementation to support that and as such it would tax the CPU more heavily resulting in a worse experience for the end user.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Lurick said:

Virtualization Based Security (VBS), among other things, that older CPUs lack the hardware implementation to support that and as such it would tax the CPU more heavily resulting in a worse experience for the end user.

Just on this there are 7th Gen that do support it and some that do not, Intel was product segmenting these types of features heavily back then so you can't simply say 7th Gen is supported where as you can for 8th Gen.

[GoodBytes]

9 hours ago, linkboy said:

-snip-

Update on my last post.

Ahhhh! There it is on my desktop!

 

 

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

On 8/31/2021 at 7:42 AM, Techstorm970 said:

That's not what I remembered, but I'm glad you liked it.  On just about every other platform it was awful; the OS's new features led to a failed phone and a PC and laptop experience that was inferior to Windows 7.  (Windows 10 was a rebound from a lot of this, to be fair.)

I used it at launch with a non-touch screen laptop and I didn't mind Windows 8. Think the only annoying part was shutting down since you were forced to use the Charms menu before the 8.1 update. Other than that, it pretty much functioned and felt like Windows 7. 

[Craftyawesome]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Just on this there are 7th Gen that do support it and some that do not, Intel was product segmenting these types of features heavily back then so you can't simply say 7th Gen is supported where as you can for 8th Gen.

I mean, they are clearly willing to support some but not all 7th gen. Not to mention zen+ doesn't support it but is on the support list.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, Craftyawesome said:

I mean, they are clearly willing to support some but not all 7th gen. Not to mention zen+ doesn't support it but is on the support list.

Yea I think there was combination of arm twisting (Core-X HEDT which is entirely different architecture) and Microsoft forgetting they have their own products with 7th Gen in them. Zen+ has some support, not all Zen+ CPUs are on the support list, not sure as to why some are on the list or not on the list. I'm not aware that any of the Zen+ CPUs support GMET but I'd have to check other hardware security features as well too.

 

Not sure if it's fixed on not but what's amusing is Ryzen Master doesn't work with Virtualization Based Security (VBS) enabled. Surely that is fixed now though? I don't have a Ryzen system though.

[linkboy]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Update on my last post.

Ahhhh! There it is on my desktop!

 

 

 

It looks like we're getting some clarification on when unsupported CPUs will be booted from the Insider Program.

 

 

It's still going to be interesting as to what happens with a clean install from the ISO.

[GoodBytes]

Another update:

From what I am reading, Microsoft clarifies that Insiders with the message that says you are out, applies to the BUILD release of Windows 11, not on a cumulative update. That means, we will still get updates. This explains, why I still see that I am still on the Dev channel. Once GA is released, then the Insiders build will be switching to a new build number, and so won't get in.

 

Since Windows 11 was released to the public, the build number has not changed. This is because teh core is considered "Done". It is just polishing/bug fixes, hence why all updates where cumulative update

 

[edit]

1 minute ago, linkboy said:

 

It looks like we're getting some clarification on when unsupported CPUs will be booted from the Insider Program.

 

Yup, you were faster then me at posting

[/edit]

[suicidalfranco]

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

IN teh case of WhatsApp there is a desktop app, but the phone needs to be connected via Bluetooth, and be nearby for it to work. Not all desktops have Bluetooth, and if your phone is somewhere else, then you'll need to bring it close, and the experience is not really smooth in my experience (but could be my Bluetooth USB module that I use on my desktop). Regardless, some apps don't have a desktop app or web version at all.

Fake news

You only need your phone to be connected to the Internet, cellular or WiFi doesn't matter, and have your pc obviously connected to the Internet too.

The only time you need your phone nearby your pc is when you have to authenticate the QR code on the desktop, other than that I can forget my phone at someone elses house and still get my WA messages on my pc in my house.

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, Lurick said:

Virtualization Based Security (VBS), among other things, that older CPUs lack the hardware implementation to support that and as such it would tax the CPU more heavily resulting in a worse experience for the end user.

That's what I thought too at first, but since 7th gen Intel processors have support for it, and it appears that the Ryzen 2000 series do not have support for it despite the former being not supported and the latter is, I don't think this is the reason.

Also, David Weston from Microsoft specifically stated that it was not the lack of some security feature that made them cut support for 7th gen processors. 

 

So if Microsoft are denying that that's the reason, and the reasoning doesn't line up with the processors they do/don't support, then I don't think that's the reason.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, linkboy said:

It looks like we're getting some clarification on when unsupported CPUs will be booted from the Insider Program.

 

It's still going to be interesting as to what happens with a clean install from the ISO.

3 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

[edit]

Yup, you were faster then me at posting

[/edit]

That chart has been known for months. The new warning message that appears is inline with what Microsoft has been saying from pretty much the start. If you do not meet the hardware requirements then you will get kicked out of the insider program and will have to do a reinstall of Windows 10 (a clean install).

 

As for what will happen with a clean install from the ISO... It will work but Microsoft has threatened that they will disable updates from being installed if you do, so it will be very insecure.

[LAwLz]

On 9/1/2021 at 6:08 AM, RedRound2 said:

Probably how 11 takes better advantages of multiple threads and big.LITTLE enhancements, the former of which was shown on the recent LTT video

I know about the scheduler changes made to support big.LITTLE on the desktop, but I haven't heard about the "11 takes better advantages of multiple threads" part. Can you please elaborate?

[Maticks]

So Windows 11 is launching with no features then a new skin to look like Mac OS.

But heaps of features are coming later for a reason to upgrade ?
Why not hold off on the Launch?

[BetteBalterZen]

I hope they will release an iso with the full release build on the 5th aswell

[jagdtigger]

12 hours ago, Lurick said:

Virtualization Based Security (VBS)

Yeah, somehow i have pretty high confidence that it is going to be like the rest of the windows code. Swiss cheese..... (Besides it wont save your butt if someone gets system privileges....)

[GoodBytes]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

That chart has been known for months. The new warning message that appears is inline with what Microsoft has been saying from pretty much the start. If you do not meet the hardware requirements then you will get kicked out of the insider program and will have to do a reinstall of Windows 10 (a clean install).

 

As for what will happen with a clean install from the ISO... It will work but Microsoft has threatened that they will disable updates from being installed if you do, so it will be very insecure.

Thank you for saying what I posted on my own Win11 Insider thread, first post. The topic/concern was if it was happening earlier then expected. It isn't. 

[GoodBytes]

6 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Fake news

You only need your phone to be connected to the Internet, cellular or WiFi doesn't matter, and have your pc obviously connected to the Internet too.

The only time you need your phone nearby your pc is when you have to authenticate the QR code on the desktop, other than that I can forget my phone at someone elses house and still get my WA messages on my pc in my house.

I tried again just a moment ago, with a friend, it seems to have changed since last tried years ago. Anyway, I don't use WhatsApp