USB C everything: USB IF releases new USB-C 2.1 spec

[Arika]

5 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

you seem confused

Not confused at all. Very very few stores lists usb cables like the branding you have mentioned. 

 

Especially USB A to C cables, very rarely do they mention the protocol 

5 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

The branding is super simple, but some how know one knows it

Because no one uses it... 

[Blademaster91]

Exciting if this means laptop chargers could be smaller, but this is yet another confusing naming because no one wants to use the USB-IF specs.

[The Benjamins]

56 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Not confused at all. Very very few stores lists usb cables like the branding you have mentioned. 

 

Especially USB A to C cables, very rarely do they mention the protocol 

Because no one uses it... 

I have never seen a cable that hasn't said if its USB 2 or USB 3 compliant 
 

[Arika]

16 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

I have never seen a cable that hasn't said if its USB 2 or USB 3 compliant 
 

then i'm about to blow your mind

 

here are some cables from some fairly big name stores in Aus. the problem is even worse on sites like amazon (obviously)

 

https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/comsol-kevlar-usb-a-to-usb-c-cable-2m-black-cocm2kvbk

https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/comsol-usb-a-to-usb-c-cable-1m-black-cocmsl01bk

https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/belkin-boostcharge-braided-usb-a-to-usb-c-cable-3m-black-bcab0023bk

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/samsung-usb-c-to-usb-c-100w-cable-1m?queryID=1d775ed743010cdde61c45dabe58e91b&objectID=393940

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/apple-usb-c-charge-cable-1m?queryID=1d775ed743010cdde61c45dabe58e91b&objectID=346830

https://www.pccasegear.com/products/47512/xipin-lx17-nylon-braided-90-degree-micro-usb-cable-1-2m

 

and more often than not, most of the cables that DO list the speed are only USB 2.0, which makes them useless for everything but charging.

 

 

 

[DeScruff]

Yay no more proprietary connectors!
Now what would be REALLY cool, is if using a high wattage USB C power brick, you could daisy chain multi monitor setups that still charge your laptop.
(Or can you do that already? I dunno how much power monitors take on average, and I dunno how common a USB C powered monitor is)

[thechinchinsong]

1 hour ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

30-50W (for mine), checking others and it seems to be 80-140W.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/led-oled-power-consumption-and-electricity-cost

I wondering if this would be good for powering monitors & transmitting data through a single cable, but that seems pretty unlikely since that would require motherboards to have USB headers that can push up to that 80 to 140W which seems pretty absurd.

[DeScruff]

29 minutes ago, thechinchinsong said:

I wondering if this would be good for powering monitors & transmitting data through a single cable, but that seems pretty unlikely since that would require motherboards to have USB headers that can push up to that 80 to 140W which seems pretty absurd.

Apple once did something like that called the ADC connector back in like 2000.
It was a modified DVI connector, that carried a DVI signal, USB, and Power. I actually have an old Mac G4 with one. It required the machine to have the higher wattage PSU (340W I think? vs the standard 240W)  And it could use all that extra 100W since there was a 17" CRT Apple Studio Display powered solely by the ADC cable.

The 100W came from an extra lil slot right next to the AGP slot.

[TetraSky]

Excellent, now we will be able to get scammed even more by shady sellers trying to peddle their lower end USB cables as if they were USB C 2.1.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, thechinchinsong said:

I wondering if this would be good for powering monitors & transmitting data through a single cable, but that seems pretty unlikely since that would require motherboards to have USB headers that can push up to that 80 to 140W which seems pretty absurd.

Let's separate the two issues:

 

a) USB-PD, existing maxes out at 100w, unless you use manufacturer-specific models (eg Dell), and to get 230w you need two USB-C connectors, of which the second connector is used only for PD, all the other features go to waste. Which is stupid when you consider that a USB-C or Thunderbolt dock can connect two 1080p (USB) or 4K (TB) monitors.

b) USB-C , I sincerely doubt this connector is going to be durable for 240w connects/disconnects. 

 

So the solution for both of these is to make USB-C PD cables be permanently attached to their power-brick/dock (which is what Dell does), all this needs is mechanical choke so that the USB-C connector on the dock side can not be removed without removing screws from the dock.

 

Dell uses a proprietary connector inside their WD15 docks,

 

but the WD19 uses an entire card-edge

The benefit of the latter, at least, is that you can field-repair the dock without disconnecting everything attached to the dock. The barrel connector, is connected to the dock, the only port on the side of the USB-C cable side is the thunder-bolt connector, on the USB-C and USB-C dual cable that is absent.

 

Still this is a proprietary solution overall, but if you want to avoid "crappy/counterfeit" cables causing fires when used on gaming/CAD laptops, you first have the laptop check the capability of the cable by asking what's on the other side what it is.

 

So if you plug a PD dock into a desktop, and the desktop says it doesn't want power, the PD dock turns power off. If you plug it into a laptop, the PD dock steps up the power delivery until the laptop says stop, if a monitor (acting as a dock) can deliver the full 240w, then the laptop won't use it's battery. If a monitor needs to be powered by the laptop or dock, then device needs to be capable of sending 240w to the monitor.

 

Hence the entire problem is that you can wind up with a situation where the desktop or laptop is powered by 240w, but also needs to power a monitor. 

 

[suicidalfranco]

Would still prefer to have a barrel plug on laptops and notebook.

At least when those break it's just three huge solder points away from being perfectly functional again

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Would still prefer to have a barrel plug on laptops and notebook.

At least when those break it's just three huge solder points away from being perfectly functional again

Most laptops put the physical connector on a small PCB because people break the things so frequently. However barrel connectors aren't "smart" and waste excessive amounts of energy even when nothing is attached. So realistically, a PD solution should scale from near-zero to 240watts depending on what is plugged in.

 

However what you usually see, at least with Dell, HP and IBM docks is that they just use their previous 240w laptop power bricks on the dock, and the dock provides the remaining 230w to the laptop while also driving up to two 1080p60 DP monitors if it's USB-C. All the remaining USB devices in the dock (eg ethernet, mouse, keyboard, audio) are all USB devices on the device where on previous proprietary docks they were bus-connected.

 

So in some cases a PD dock makes more sense, even if that connector might not (see Apple's ethernet in the power brick, or chromecasts with ethernet in their power brick.) 

 

 

[suicidalfranco]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

Most laptops put the physical connector on a small PCB because people break the things so frequently.

Not talking about the daughter board, talking about the actual plug

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

However barrel connectors aren't "smart" and waste excessive amounts of energy even when nothing is attached. So realistically, a PD solution should scale from near-zero to 240watts depending on what is plugged in

I'll gladly sacrifice that for the convenience of a cheap,  easily replaceble connector.

[Dujith]

6 hours ago, Kisai said:

Most laptops put the physical connector on a small PCB because people break the things so frequently. However barrel connectors aren't "smart" and waste excessive amounts of energy even when nothing is attached. So realistically, a PD solution should scale from near-zero to 240watts depending on what is plugged in.

Thats not how that works. If there is nothing attached to the barrel plug there is no current to flow and thus it will use up 0 W.

The transformer itself however will uphold for whatever voltage its rated, so a 20V transformer will always have 20V at the barrel, just with 0 amps

Only the electronics inside will use something. For a 135W charger thats 0.185W. That is in no way excessive.

 

A 65W PD charger will use 0.18W at standby also. So no real difference there.

 

 

[thechinchinsong]

12 hours ago, Kisai said:

Let's separate the two issues:

 

a) USB-PD, existing maxes out at 100w, unless you use manufacturer-specific models (eg Dell), and to get 230w you need two USB-C connectors, of which the second connector is used only for PD, all the other features go to waste. Which is stupid when you consider that a USB-C or Thunderbolt dock can connect two 1080p (USB) or 4K (TB) monitors.

b) USB-C , I sincerely doubt this connector is going to be durable for 240w connects/disconnects. 

 

So the solution for both of these is to make USB-C PD cables be permanently attached to their power-brick/dock (which is what Dell does), all this needs is mechanical choke so that the USB-C connector on the dock side can not be removed without removing screws from the dock.

 

Dell uses a proprietary connector inside their WD15 docks,

 

but the WD19 uses an entire card-edge

The benefit of the latter, at least, is that you can field-repair the dock without disconnecting everything attached to the dock. The barrel connector, is connected to the dock, the only port on the side of the USB-C cable side is the thunder-bolt connector, on the USB-C and USB-C dual cable that is absent.

 

Still this is a proprietary solution overall, but if you want to avoid "crappy/counterfeit" cables causing fires when used on gaming/CAD laptops, you first have the laptop check the capability of the cable by asking what's on the other side what it is.

 

So if you plug a PD dock into a desktop, and the desktop says it doesn't want power, the PD dock turns power off. If you plug it into a laptop, the PD dock steps up the power delivery until the laptop says stop, if a monitor (acting as a dock) can deliver the full 240w, then the laptop won't use it's battery. If a monitor needs to be powered by the laptop or dock, then device needs to be capable of sending 240w to the monitor.

 

Hence the entire problem is that you can wind up with a situation where the desktop or laptop is powered by 240w, but also needs to power a monitor. 

 

Pretty interesting, I actually have a WD15 powering an XPS 15

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Not talking about the daughter board, talking about the actual plug

I'll gladly sacrifice that for the convenience of a cheap,  easily replaceble connector.

I've had users destroy both, the laptop and the brick side. The connectors contrary to your assertation is not "easily replacable", in fact it's easier to do this:

https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/dell-adapter-74mm-barrel-to-usb-c-65-watt-maximum-output/apd/470-acfh/pc-accessories 

 

So if you have Dell spare adapters laying around, you can just throw one of these on the end and power the latitude 7490's and such off them. Don't even think of powering any 15" or 17" laptop with it though. Heck you can power ANY laptop with them as long as it's not more than 65w.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dujith said:

Thats not how that works. If there is nothing attached to the barrel plug there is no current to flow and thus it will use up 0 W.

That wasn't quite the point I was making. Electric utilities make a big deal about "Vampire" devices sucking back power, which includes power bricks to mobile phones as well as laptop and game console power bricks when the units are on standby.

 

Dell makes three models of it's 240w laptop power supply:

The appearance of this model is deceiving, it's a 240 model but it's barely any smaller than this one:

And both Dell and HP use the exact same one.

This is ALSO the same for HP and Dell, and is twice as thick. Now to the best of my knowledge the thicker one is not a switching power supply, the thin one is. Most of the chunky PSU's you can find have more in it than a desktop PSU.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Dujith said:

 

The transformer itself however will uphold for whatever voltage its rated, so a 20V transformer will always have 20V at the barrel, just with 0 amps

Only the electronics inside will use something. For a 135W charger thats 0.185W. That is in no way excessive.

 

A 65W PD charger will use 0.18W at standby also. So no real difference there.

 

 

 

Again, utilities make a big deal about this 

https://www.duke-energy.com/Energy-Education/Energy-Savings-And-Efficiency/Energy-Vampires

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/articles/energy-vampires-are-attacking-your-home-here-s-how-stop-them

https://www.scarce.org/are-energy-vampires-lurking-in-your-home/

etc etc

 

So theoretically a PD unit will use less because it's not actively powering anything that doesn't need it, where as a barrel connector is always on. That may not be a meaningful amount of energy, but you're less likely to cause a fire by leaving a PD unit plugged in than a barrel connector, and many laptops do not have break-away cables in case you trip over it. 

 

A number of 65w bricks at the office were replaced due to the user's carelessness, and mostly they got tossed because large chunks of insulation were missing from either the barrel connector end, or the brick end's own insulating plastic. They're cheap enough to replace because we have like a hundred of them from older models of laptops and docking stations that were discarded.

 

 

[suicidalfranco]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

The connectors contrary to your assertation is not "easily replacable"

they are

literally just:

1. cut
2. reveal the copper in two wires that will come out of your unsheathed cord
3. unscrew the barrel plug to reveal it's solder points
4. solder
5. screw back the barrel plug to cover all the soldered wiring
6. (optional) if you wanna be fancy add a heat shrink wrap

at best if you suck at soldering it will take you 15 minutes to do.

 

Meanwhile USB-C PD 

 

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

they are

literally just:

1. cut
2. reveal the copper in two wires that will come out of your unsheathed cord
3. unscrew the barrel plug to reveal it's solder points
4. solder
5. screw back the barrel plug to cover all the soldered wiring
6. (optional) if you wanna be fancy add a heat shrink wrap

at best if you suck at soldering it will take you 15 minutes to do.

 

You do realize that the part that is broken on the adapter side is always the physical connector, which you can't simply reuse the broken one right? Where are you going to get a replacement connector? 

 

Of all the broken adapters, either the user breaks the center pin on the laptop side, or they break the connector itself from kinking it 90 degrees.

 

[suicidalfranco]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

You do realize that the part that is broken on the adapter side is always the physical connector, which you can't simply reuse the broken one right? Where are you going to get a replacement connector? 

 

Of all the broken adapters, either the user breaks the center pin on the laptop side, or they break the connector itself from kinking it 90 degrees.

 

Literally sold on any hardware shop for less than 2€...

 

And here's even an amazon page

https://www.amazon.ca/Ancable-Replacement-5-5x2-1mm-Connector-Shrinkle/dp/B07K56MXMZ/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=barrel+plug+connector&qid=1622180954&sprefix=Barrel+plug+&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExTlRDNjM3MkRHMjEmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyMDU3MDYxOFVOVFg5M0xWVVoxJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA2NzkxMzIyQTlVUlFXMDVPMUxBJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfcGhvbmVfc2VhcmNoX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=