China’s Inner Mongolia Declares War on Crypto Mining

[RTX 3090]

2 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

People would probably not purchase a GPU and thus no GPU would exists.

Well the high limit would mean people can afford to mine on 1 or even 2 3090's, but if they try to set up a full minig farm with like 50 GPU's they would go waaayyy over the limit.

3 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Gas in my country comes in cylinders

Maybe the government could have some sort of scheme of putting direct pipes to everyone's house, like in the UK. 

3 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Mining made me install solar because the cost can easily be justified

That's good, miners will now use renewable energy instead of straining the countries supply, which is the aim of the limit. If we aren't going to decrease in energy consumption, the least we can do is get renewable energy like solar panels. They are mining in mongolia because of the low electricity price, they can now use solar and take advantage of the high amounts of sunlight.

Regular consumers might also install solar of they feel they need to go over their limit, which would in fact reduce strain in the countries supply even more then just banning crypto

[PCGuy_5960]

6 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

I can't believe I have to explain this for the 100th time. Gaming is for entertainment. Cryptocurrency on the other hand doesn't produce a good or service. Sure you can make money off of it because enough dumb people buy it but that doesn't make it a good or service of value. 

Is your entertainment worth destroying the planet? (Huge exaggeration, obviously, but if bitcoin is destroying the planet so is gaming) There are so many other things you can do to entertain yourself that don't consume so much energy, so why not ban gaming too? You can think that crypto is for dumb people and criminals, but that doesn't mean that you can't make (good) money off of it, this instantly makes it far more valuable than gaming. 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, RTX 3090 said:

but everyone should have a reasonable power limit like 20-30kwh per day

What? That's nothing, not nearly enough for a standard family home now days. Any semi reasonable amount of heatpump usage for cooling or heating and you're waaay over that.

 

I was away from home most of today and I've still used 18.4KW today.

 

 

RIP if that was the limit if I wanted to turn my server lab back on, or be home all day and play PS4/PC.

[RTX 3090]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

What? That's nothing, not nearly enough for a standard family home now days. Any semi reasonable amount of heatpump usage for cooling or heating and you're waaay over that.

 

I was away from home most of today and I've still used 18.4KW today.

I use around 2kwh per day, but have sperate gas supply for heating and cooking, but not sure if they use gas or electricity mainly in Mongolia for heating and cooking

[leadeater]

Also

 

 

May was BOINC pentathlon from memory.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, RTX 3090 said:

I use around 2kwh per day, but have sperate gas supply for heating and cooking, but not sure if they use gas or electricity mainly in Mongolia for heating and cooking

I doubt you use only 2kwh, you're using a PC right now that it alone over a few hours will do that, so unless that is literally the only thing in the house that uses power I can't see 2kwh a day being actually what you use.

 

Take for example that previous graph, the hours between 12am and 6am I'm running on battery with only the fridge and a few other small things not supplied by that, that time period alone is between 0.6kwh-1.0kwh.

 

Only way I could use less is to go to the mains board and turn off the mains switch.

[RTX 3090]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I doubt you use only 2kwh, you're using a PC right now that it alone over a few hours will do that, so unless that is literally the only thing in the house that uses power I can't see 2kwh a day being actually what you use.

 

Take for example that previous graph, the hours between 12am and 6am I'm running on battery with only the fridge and a few other small things not supplied by that, that time period alone is between 0.6kwh-1.0kwh.

 

Only way I could use less is to go to the mains board and turn off the mains switch.

I only use my PC when necessary and use phone and tablet most of the time, and turn off everything when not in use. The only thing that stays on 247 is fridge, nothing else. 

[leadeater]

And here is my parents usage, they have gas for heating, hot water and stove top (electric oven)

 

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, RTX 3090 said:

I only use my PC when necessary and use phone and tablet most of the time, and turn off everything when not in use. The only thing that stays on 247 is fridge, nothing else. 

Yes but do you have anything better than your word you only use 2kwh in a day, I'm not saying it's impossible but it's highly improbable. The only person I know that has ever achieved that is my sister who does not have a computer, turns everything off from the wall when she goes out other than the fridge and has a single small LCD TV. She'd almost get away with no electricity at all otherwise. Even then I still think her power bill totals to more than 2kwh average per day.

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, RTX 3090 said:

I only use my PC when necessary and use phone and tablet most of the time, and turn off everything when not in use. The only thing that stays on 247 is fridge, nothing else. 

it's kind of unfair to push your standards upon others tbh

 

i do mining and i use about 1000kWh a month, my friend's family household uses 3000kWh while they don't even do mining

their koi fish pond takes about 500kWh, and that's what they are interested in.

[RTX 3090]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And here is my parents usage, they have gas for heating, hot water and stove top (electric oven)

Not too sure, but on a worst case scenario I use a maximum of 10kwh per day, but my house is fairly small, not that big. My monthly electric bill is around £40 in winter and £30 in summer

[RTX 3090]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

it's kind of unfair to push your standards upon others tbh

The limit doesn't have to be to my standards, I was just giving an example. The government should look at the usage of an average household in the are and come up with a reasonable limit

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, RTX 3090 said:

Not too sure, but on a worst case scenario I use a maximum of 10kwh per day, but my house is fairly small, not that big. My monthly electric bill is around £40 in winter and £30 in summer

Which by my math using average kwh unit price in the country you are in is 6kwh average per day. Unless I math failed hard or the kwh price I got was wrong.

[Moonzy]

Just now, RTX 3090 said:

The limit doesn't have to be to my standards, I was just giving an example. The government should look at the usage of an average household in the are and come up with a reasonable limit

my point is, who is to decide how much is right? average doesnt mean a lot imo

just because i live around elderly people who dont do much with electricity, doesn't mean i dont want to use more.

 

and it doesn't really solve the "wasting" energy, leadeater could be folding with the power while i do mining with it, so who's using it the "right" way?

[leadeater]

Just now, Moonzy said:

and it doesn't really solve the "wasting" energy, leadeater could be folding with the power while i do mining with it, so who's using it the "right" way?

Me, because when I do it I use 2,000 kwh muahaha. Could probably do twice that if I actually got round to building the other systems I have parts for. P.S zero GPUs, so I'm in the clear hehe

[Jet_ski]

If I edit the post, can I add a poll to it or will that remove the article? 

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Is your entertainment worth destroying the planet? (Huge exaggeration, obviously, but if bitcoin is destroying the planet so is gaming) There are so many other things you can do to entertain yourself that don't consume so much energy, so why not ban gaming too? You can think that crypto is for dumb people and criminals, but that doesn't mean that you can't make (good) money off of it, this instantly makes it far more valuable than gaming. 

You can make money off of gaming as well so I don't see your point. Also cryptocurrency isn't just a problem of people doing it on small scales but the fact that people are using many gpus and consuming more power per person than gaming. You look at the power consumption form gaming and look at the power consumption from cryptocurrency and the amount of people in gaming and amount of people in cryptocurrency and you clearly see which one is more wasteful. If everyone started mining vs everyone started gaming mining would be a much bigger issue. I would also like to point out that making money isn't really a reason for something to exist nor does it make something valuable. If anything folding at home which you don't make money on is far more valuable than cryptocurrency. Also cryptocurrency is getting more and more power consuming as time goes on while the same can not be said about gaming. 

[Moonzy]

14 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I would also like to point out that making money isn't really a reason for something to exist nor does it make something valuable.

so value is subjective? is that what you're saying?

 

14 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

You can make money off of gaming as well so I don't see your point.

not every gamer can earn money from gaming, there will never be a streaming based economy

they will always remain a small portion of the population.

 

meanwhile almost everyone with a GPU can mine.

 

14 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Also cryptocurrency is getting more and more power consuming as time goes on while the same can not be said about gaming. 

what?

latest news about intel cpu says it's consuming way more power

latest nvidia and AMD gpu consumes up to 300-350W of power

plus the growth of the gaming segment

[Blademaster91]

10 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

I can't believe I have to explain this for the 100th time. Gaming is for entertainment. Cryptocurrency on the other hand doesn't produce a good or service. Sure you can make money off of it because enough dumb people buy it but that doesn't make it a good or service of value. 

I agree gaming has a subjective value,but so does cryptocurrency, not everyone is interested in it. Someone can make money from gaming and its much less volatile than mining as long as they can hold viewers, and enjoying a game can be a way to relive stress or connect you with friends.

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

meanwhile almost everyone with a GPU can mine.

Mining hasn't been for everyone since coins could be mined with a $200 AMD or Nvidia GPU's, mining nowadays reminds me of meme stocks, its a scheme for rich people to get richer.

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

latest nvidia and AMD gpu consumes up to 300-350W of power

plus the growth of the gaming segment

Up to is the important part there, and a GPU rarely draws 300w alone, 300w is like the total system consumption for a PC with a Ryzen cpu. And a gaming PC is going to be on 3-4 hours a day unless someone is a streamer, so much less worse for the environment. But this topic keeps getting spun around to "gaming bad" while people are missing the point that using less energy is also important rather than pointing fingers and says "But thats bad and you shouldn't either".

3 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Is your entertainment worth destroying the planet? (Huge exaggeration, obviously, but if bitcoin is destroying the planet so is gaming) There are so many other things you can do to entertain yourself that don't consume so much energy, so why not ban gaming too? You can think that crypto is for dumb people and criminals, but that doesn't mean that you can't make (good) money off of it, this instantly makes it far more valuable than gaming. 

Well everyone has to have some kind of entertainment, and gaming for a few hours isn't nearly as bad as running 20 gpus for mining. My gaming PC is off at night, and I rarely play any new games anymore, a lot of newer titles just aren't worth $60 imo.

[tikker]

  

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

To be honest if you are an academic institution and are proposing a large purchase of GPUs getting supply won't really be a problem. Say for example if I went to our HPE partner and said we are looking to buy 1000 GPUs that would definitely priority from Nvidia. Product supply simply is not fairly allocated, it's just how it is and it's not actually all that wrong either. So the academic looking to buy 1 or 2 or maybe even 10 might have quite a big problem getting them. just like everyone else, but those "important" customers generally don't have as hard a time even during supply shortages.

Ah interesting to know. I only know anecdotally from a national supercomputing facility here that they have somewhat of a trouble getting them, but I'm not sure about the scale. I think from context it's relatively small scale talking maybe a few 100-ish GPU.

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

Say for example if I went to our HPE partner and said we are looking to buy 1000 GPUs that would definitely priority from Nvidia.

Awfully specific example you got there... how do I get in?

 

12 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

I can't believe I have to explain this for the 100th time. Gaming is for entertainment. Cryptocurrency on the other hand doesn't produce a good or service. Sure you can make money off of it because enough dumb people buy it but that doesn't make it a good or service of value. 

You're being pretty dense at this point. The provided digital good is the coin, the provided service is a secure way to transfer funds, track things, share information or do other things that I'm not well versed enough in yet. The coins are the fuel that drive this network. Them being purely digital doesn't matter. the goods and services are there.

13 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

And cryptocurrency trading is objectively worse than traditional stock trading because its completely unregulated.

You are ignoring a very important point: being unregulated is part of the point of crypto. Saying this about crypto is the same thing as saying fiat is bad because it's no longer backed by something valueable such as gold. You can't say something is bad for being X when being X is the point of said thing.

 

While I think we will probably need regulation to some extent if it'll find widespread adoption, it'll take time to figure out how to do it. You can't regulate technology of the future with regulations from the past. We need to think of something new.

13 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

It is legitimately a problem and doesn't provide anything useful for how much energy its consuming.

It is, and again nobody is saying the energy aspect of current big ones like BTC and ETH are justifiable. The community thinks so, the developers think so. That's why more efficient coins such as Nano or others with proof of stake and the like started popping up.

13 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Its entire worth is based on other people's thoughts and feelings.

But that is exaclty how markets work. Nothing has value until people consider it to have value. Why are people buying GPUs for $2500? Why are people buying shoes, guitars, car etc. for thousands or millions of dollars? Because we think and feel they are worth that! That doesn't mean I'm going to demonize the sneaker market because I don't care about companies wasting energy and resources on a $4000 pair of shoes.

 

13 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Its so easily manipulated that it is basically the stock market without any regulations. It could be worth nothing tomorrow and nothing could be done about it.

Ah yes, because regular stock markets are so safe and will never lose you money *looks at GME and Robin Hood*. You make a bad investment, you get burned.

 

6 hours ago, Moonzy said:

And for example, I've debated with my friends about the use of electric stove vs gas stove, how would you tackle that? Wouldn't you just push people to go back to cooking with gas and relying on coal or smth during the winter?

My place currently has induction, but honestly I prefer gas for cooking. I have better control over the heat, and there is the legitimate issue that if I have a power outage I'm screwed. I'll have no hot water and won't be able to cook any food or boil water. And indeed as more and more moves to pure electricity capping electricity usage becomes more intricate.

[mwagen]

16 hours ago, tikker said:

Well you sign a contract with a power company and they charge you a certain rate per kWh, so yes, you "simply" buy electricity. You don't pay, your connection will be turned off.

17 hours ago, Moonzy said:

So who is to decide what's the "right way" to use electricity?

My point is that I think it's wrong to take public utilities for granted as if they're inexhaustible resources. I guess be thankful you have access to a stable, affordable power grid and you're not somewhere like Iran. 

 

18 hours ago, Moonzy said:

"Hating" would be the wrong term perhaps, but reporting on the negative aspects does generate clicks because people love to blame on someone when something goes wrong

Yeah, so? That's how journalism and society work. We're all connected and entitled to know how our lives are impacted by what's going on around us.

 

18 hours ago, Moonzy said:

Nah, I don't whine or cry when there's no GPU, I just be happy with what I have

And yet, just like gamers, you're lamenting how difficult it is to continue your hobby in the absence of hardware you want, so I see no difference. But then you take it further by saying you have to have multiple gpus.  So I don't know if you're really expecting anyone to empathize with you or not, but wow...

 

18 hours ago, Moonzy said:

19 hours ago, mwagen said:

Moreover you have zero qualms over contributing to the gross energy consumption and gpu shortage

I don't

It's kinda remarkable how you continue to demonstrate a completely self-centered, robotic style of thinking. But I guess that makes sense if you're recent stem grad, unemployed?, who seems to spend much of his time posting here.

 

19 hours ago, Moonzy said:

I didn't care if people SLI or could afford 980Ti while I could only buy a single 970 to game on before mining came along, so I don't get why people are getting angry when people are willingly pay higher prices for things they think it's worth it.

The complete lack of awareness is startling. If you seriously don't understand why people are upset, then, again, wow 

[Moonzy]

44 minutes ago, mwagen said:

The complete lack of awareness is startling. If you seriously don't understand why people are upset, then, again, wow 

44 minutes ago, mwagen said:

It's kinda remarkable how you continue to demonstrate a completely self-centered, robotic style of thinking.

do explain to me why i should understand why someone is angry when they cant afford to pay for something they want?

is it my fault that they can't pay $1500 for a 3090? should I not buy one because they can't afford one? I dont get the logic

[tikker]

25 minutes ago, mwagen said:

My point is that I think it's wrong to take public utilities for granted as if they're inexhaustible resources. I guess be thankful you have access to a stable, affordable power grid and you're not somewhere like Iran. 

Well yes, but that's an issue unrelated to crypto.

27 minutes ago, mwagen said:

And yet, just like gamers, you're lamenting how difficult it is to continue your hobby in the absence of hardware you want, so I see no difference. But then you take it further by saying you have to have multiple gpus.  So I don't know if you're really expecting anyone to empathize with you or not, but wow...

Are not even allowed to share lament over not being able to get GPUs? What happened to your earlier statement:

On 3/5/2021 at 6:39 PM, mwagen said:

That's the difference between miners and gamers. Hashrates and spreadsheets versus high res textures and lighting effects. Miners want money but gamers just want to chill. Not gonna claim that either is more entitled to gpus or whatever but only one passes the vibe check. 

By saying only one "passes the vibe check" you're already implying that you agree one is more entitled to GPUs than the other. Here's the thing: you don't need a new GPU, you want one for high-resolution textures and lighting effects. Games wil run fine with lower resolution textures and effects turned down. They don't need another GPU, they want one to have a larger profit. Maybe that profit allows them to do something else they love that passes your "vibe check". In a black and white world either party will see the other one as the "wrong" side. "Why waste your time gaming when you can earn money?" vs "Why waste time mining when you can enjoy a game?". It's two sides of the same coin that inherently will have a hard time finding common ground and will just blame the other for their problems.

[Bitter]

Is saying this is for power use and the environment a way of them trying to regulate this while appearing caring and benevolent? Is this too political?

[tikker]

26 minutes ago, Bitter said:

Is saying this is for power use and the environment a way of them trying to regulate this while appearing caring and benevolent? Is this too political?

My guess would be both. Which to what extent I don't know.