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China’s Inner Mongolia Declares War on Crypto Mining

Jet_ski
13 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

They clearly aren't equivalent because one is actually providing entertainment while the other is just plain wasteful for no reason.

Problem is, mining isn't doing nothing

It's crunching numbers for adding it to a blockchain

 

Your "no reason" needs some clarification

Because earning profit may as well be a good reason for many people

 

Google runs their servers doing number crunching, providing services to people

Mining runs their number crunchers, contributing to transaction and blockchain

 

Both are for profit

 

Just because you don't benefit from it doesn't mean it's doing nothing

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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This will be interesting. If they actually stop mining in China it will have a large effect on cryptocurrency. China holds large amounts of crypto currency removing those miners will take large chunks of the transaction network offline. I actually think this would drive transaction fees so high that we might actually see crypto crash hard at least for a little while until new mining setups are created.

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2 minutes ago, SlidewaysZ said:

This will be interesting. If they actually stop mining in China it will have a large effect on cryptocurrency. China holds large amounts of crypto currency removing those miners will take large chunks of the transaction network offline. I actually think this would drive transaction fees so high that we might actually see crypto crash hard at least for a little while until new mining setups are created.

Is that how it works? I just thought the difficulty would drop to maintain x amount of transaction per y amount of time

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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I think this move makes barely any differences to mining. As far as I know, Inner Mongolia is not the place where electricity price is the lowest. Most of the mining farms in China are located near Three Gorges Dam as the price is the lowest. Some farms even have their own hydroelectricity power plant.

 

I would say this move only killed about 1% mining operations in China.

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12 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Problem is, mining isn't doing nothing

It's crunching numbers for adding it to a blockchain

 

Your "no reason" needs some clarification

Because earning profit may as well be a good reason for many people

 

Google runs their servers doing number crunching, providing services to people

Mining runs their number crunchers, contributing to transaction and blockchain

 

Both are for profit

 

Just because you don't benefit from it doesn't mean it's doing nothing

The point is that processing the same transactions can be done with literally a fraction of the power consumption. Whereas with cryptos as the blockchain grows, power consumption grows much faster. And that’s why it’s wasteful.

 

And Bitcoin is still tradable by governments if it’s ever converted back to cash; all they need to do is link a bank account to a wallet based on the transactions which if they really want to, they could. They can force any of the exchanges into giving them that info.

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10 minutes ago, SlidewaysZ said:

This will be interesting. If they actually stop mining in China it will have a large effect on cryptocurrency. China holds large amounts of crypto currency removing those miners will take large chunks of the transaction network offline. I actually think this would drive transaction fees so high that we might actually see crypto crash hard at least for a little while until new mining setups are created.

Or until difficulty adjusts; whichever comes first.

7 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Is that how it works? I just thought the difficulty would drop to maintain x amount of transaction per y amount of time

Yeah that's how it was designed. The network aims to process a block every 10 minutes, with difficulty being adjusted every 2016 blocks. Taking out a large amount of hashpower will temporarily slow things down as difficulty is still based on when they were there. After 2016 blocks it should adjust though and it will be "back to normal" so to say.

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46 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Great!

Cryptomining is a literal waste of power, just to get a few bits of data that people randomly attributed value to.

Quote

Great!

Gaming is a literal waste of power, just to get a few bits of entertainment that people randomly attributed necessity to.

Don't mind me, was checking to see if this would look silly if I changed a few words, still does, lol.

 

26 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I really hate how this always comes up and somehow people think that entertainment and cryptocurrency mining are equivalent when they are not. That like saying someone who uses water for a slipnslide during the summer for their kids is just as wasteful as a guy whole leaves his sink on for a couple of hours for no reason at all. They clearly aren't equivalent because one is actually providing entertainment while the other is just plain wasteful for no reason. 

We can argue the inverse of this argument though. You are operating under the assumption that mining cannot be entertaining for those that do it. I myself am not a miner (have been on the record many times on this forum about my disinterest in cryptocurrencies in general) but I have many friends that enjoy the mining and trading aspect of cryptocurrencies and they do seem quite entertained by the process. So much so that they enjoy the trips they make to secure new hardware. To them, hunting for new hardware is a thrill in and of itself. Others enjoy the trading aspect, much like those that enjoy the trading aspects of the stock market. Who are you to decide what is entertaining for others?

 

I personally enjoy beating my head against a wall when memory overclocking, despite others finding it completely tedious and a total waste of time, but it's entertaining for me and I continue to do it. If we are to dictate what is classified as entertainment and judge based entirely on those preconceived notions, then we might as well argue every subjective opinion we have as if it is fact.

 

I know you think comparisons cannot be made, but I am having no difficulties making these comparisons. If you'd like to spend some time to dispute them, I'd be happy to engage you in that endeavor, but know that I intend to drive the point home that those that cannot discern between their wants & needs cannot deem their hobby more important than others with these moral dilemmas. Either both are wasteful & harmful to the environment, or neither are. If you want to compare and argue the degrees to which each are damaging, that would be an entirely different conversation.

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Just now, Jet_ski said:

The point is that processing the same transactions can be done with literally a fraction of the power consumption. Whereas with cryptos as the blockchain grows, power consumption grows much faster. And that’s why it’s wasteful.

No it can't, if it can then miners would be all over it

You're probably thinking banking but that's centralized, which is fundamentally different

 

Not too familiar with the political power side of things so I'll stay out of that discussion

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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2 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

No it can't, if it can then miners would be all over it

You're probably thinking banking but that's centralized, which is fundamentally different

 

Not too familiar with the political power side of things so I'll stay out of that discussion

Yes, I’m referring to processing payments through the banks in comparison to cryptos.

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2 minutes ago, Jet_ski said:

Yes, I’m referring to processing payments through the banks in comparison to cryptos.

Apples and oranges

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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6 minutes ago, Jet_ski said:

Whereas with cryptos as the blockchain grows, power consumption grows much faster.

That's not how it works, at all.

 

 

1 minute ago, Jet_ski said:

Yes, I’m referring to processing payments through the banks in comparison to cryptos.

If that was true, banks wouldn't be looking at switching to blockchain technologies.

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17 minutes ago, SlidewaysZ said:

This will be interesting. If they actually stop mining in China it will have a large effect on cryptocurrency. China holds large amounts of crypto currency removing those miners will take large chunks of the transaction network offline. I actually think this would drive transaction fees so high that we might actually see crypto crash hard at least for a little while until new mining setups are created.

This is going to totally going to make the shortages even worse.

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1 minute ago, Wh0_Am_1 said:

This is going to totally going to make the shortages even worse.

I don't think so, BTC is currently mined through ASICs, of you remove a big chunk of it, the difficulty will go down, but not enough so that GPUs are profitable with BTC. It'll still be mined through ASICs.

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6 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

I don't think so, BTC is currently mined through ASICs, of you remove a big chunk of it, the difficulty will go down, but not enough so that GPUs are profitable with BTC. It'll still be mined through ASICs.

Indeed, although China also has many large GPU farms for Ethereum and other networks that would be included under this umbrella, though on second thought, it may be better because some may try to liquidate their stocks, while others setup farms elsewhere in the world like Iceland. And if many of them choose to move their stock, between the setup times the profitability will rise, and more miners would be willing to spend more on GPUs, while these farms look for or build new building for their farms.

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Though here is a side effect I just though of. If this crackdown is successful, it will likely make GPUs more accessible during future mining crazes as it will likely increase the communication barrier between farms and the manufacturers, and it will likely decrease the chance that the cards ever make it to the farms before it passes through a vendors hands, meaning that there may be a greater chance that said cards may end up in the hands of gamers instead of miners.

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Just now, Wh0_Am_1 said:

Though here is a side effect I just though of. If this crackdown is successful, it will likely make GPUs more accessible during future mining crazes as it will likely increase the communication barrier between farms and the manufacturers

I think the owners of mining farms are probably fully aware that they are creating a shortage

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4 minutes ago, Wh0_Am_1 said:

Though here is a side effect I just though of. If this crackdown is successful, it will likely make GPUs more accessible during future mining crazes as it will likely increase the communication barrier between farms and the manufacturers, and it will likely decrease the chance that the cards ever make it to the farms before it passes through a vendors hands, meaning that there may be a greater chance that said cards may end up in the hands of gamers instead of miners.

That's just a small segment of the mining ecosystem, it's a worldwide thing so the fly shortage will still be a thing

Sure, more GPU may pop up here and there, but the pricing wouldn't budge much because there's other miners buying them (I paid $2000 for a 3080)

so gamers wouldn't buy it still

 

4 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

I think the owners of mining farms are probably fully aware that they are creating a shortage

Probably, but what's your point?

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Found another statistic that might be interesting.

This analysis from Berkeley Lab estimated that in 2012, gaming computers used 75 TWh of power globally.

I would not be surprised if interest in gaming has doubled since 2012, since the industry is going so well, and if that's accurate then it is very likely that gaming uses as much power as mining does globally, and that contributes about as much to the world as mining does in my eyes.

Yes, but back then higher end, higher power consumption cards and less efficient power supplies were more popular due to their price, now with the increase of GPU pricing they are less popular and PC's that are far more power efficient became more popular. There's a clear difference in power consumption in a system with a 1060/rx 480 compared to older similar PC with similar class card, 660/760/960. And if you look at the steam hardware survey the most commonly used GPU's by gamers are lower power ones, like the 1060, 2060, 1650, 1050 and so on and that's about 35 percent or so of the entire steam hardware survey at least. Assuming that the average pc consumes just as much power in 2020 as it did in 2012 is not a fair assumption to make.

image.png.af0f8deac1eb57d2575abef6ef3f374e.png

image.png.041b27e47133bd053cb1bbc71e6f39ca.png

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5 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Probably, but what's your point?

I was disagreeing with the assertion that creating a more open dialogue between the farms and the manufacturers so that the farms could be made aware of what they were causing would reduce the issues with GPU shortages.

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into tech, public transport and architecture // amateur programmer // youtuber // beginner photographer

Thanks for reading all this by the way!

By the way, my desktop is a docked laptop. Get over it, No seriously, I have an exterrnal monitor, keyboard, mouse, headset, ethernet and cooling fans all connected. Using it feels no different to a desktop, it works for several hours if the power goes out, and disconnecting just a few cables gives me something I can take on the go. There's enough power for all games I play and it even copes with basic (and some not-so-basic) video editing. Give it a go - you might just love it.

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58 minutes ago, Icarus_Radio said:

I think this move makes barely any differences to mining. As far as I know, Inner Mongolia is not the place where electricity price is the lowest. Most of the mining farms in China are located near Three Gorges Dam as the price is the lowest. Some farms even have their own hydroelectricity power plant.

 

I would say this move only killed about 1% mining operations in China.

Maybe, but it sends a clear message to all mining farms in China and, hell, not just the farms, even the people that have 3 GPUs in their basement mining some ETH.

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35 minutes ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

Yes, but back then higher end, higher power consumption cards and less efficient power supplies were more popular due to their price, now with the increase of GPU pricing they are less popular and PC's that are far more power efficient became more popular. There's a clear difference in power consumption in a system with a 1060/rx 480 compared to older similar PC with similar class card, 660/760/960. And if you look at the steam hardware survey the most commonly used GPU's by gamers are lower power ones, like the 1060, 2060, 1650, 1050 and so on and that's about 35 percent or so of the entire steam hardware survey at least. Assuming that the average pc consumes just as much power in 2020 as it did in 2012 is not a fair assumption to make.

image.png.af0f8deac1eb57d2575abef6ef3f374e.png

image.png.041b27e47133bd053cb1bbc71e6f39ca.png

At best it's a 20% drop, and the later GPU past 10 series consume more power for the same class too

 

That's still 60TWh, far cry from the "order of magnitude less power consumption"that people like to think, it's more like half if we assume that gaming industry didn't change since 2012, which isn't true, especially during lockdowns

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

That's not how crypto currency works...

I wonder how many people who say mining is a waste of resources actually understand how blockchains work. Mining serves a very important purpose and is an integral part of making cryptocurrencies work. 

I know right? Anytime crypto is mentioned on the forum I see nothing but misinformation and bias statements that have no validity. This is a good thing considering how Bitmain works. 

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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48 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

I think the owners of mining farms are probably fully aware that they are creating a shortage

Do we actually know how big of an impact miners have on the shortages?

I think a lot of people are quick to blame miners for shortages, but from what I can tell we don't know how much of the blame are on miners vs just the pandemic (both increase in demand as well as reduced manufacturing capacity).

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2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Do we actually know how big of an impact miners have on the shortages?

I think a lot of people are quick to blame miners for shortages, but from what I can tell we don't know how much of the blame are on miners vs just the pandemic (both increase in demand as well as reduced manufacturing capacity).

It's not helping, that's for sure, but I think people have forgotten that the shortages started with the launch of the 3000 series back in October ...

 

If you look at the used market, it's obvious something is happening, people are buying 1060 6GB GPUs for $300+  when those were around $100 not even 2 months ago.

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44 minutes ago, Rauten said:

Maybe, but it sends a clear message to all mining farms in China and, hell, not just the farms, even the people that have 3 GPUs in their basement mining some ETH.

Maybe, but I doubt banning mining farms would do much, people would just buy up GPUs to mine in their basement instead which I think is happening anyway because GPUs have been unavailable since last October, except miners which are still obtaining plenty of GPUs.

Besides the scalpers, mining is likely the main cause of shortages, considering even used GTX 10 series GPUs are worth what they were new on places like ebay.

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