Nvidia Sold $175 Million Worth of GeForce RTX 30 GPUs To Crypto Miners

[done12many2]

9 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

not a big scale miner like you, my max config was 2x 1070 + 2070S, though i sold off my 1070s in preparation for 30 series

might've been a bad decision, but -shrug- live and learn

Sir, either post or send me your mining address and let me know what you are mining.  My wife just set up the Christmas tree, everyone is in a great mood and I like your damn style sir!

[Dracarris]

12 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

and what would they do that's meaningful?

gaming? TV? generating heat in the winter, while not profiting? (mining in the winter to profit while having heating was a meme, but it's pretty smart)

What they would do that is meaningful? Well, they would live. Instead of you mining, the same amount of energy can be used to supply the whole everyday home life of 3 people. You know, cooking food, washing clothes. You honestly feel entitled to using the typical energy 3 people would use all for yourself, just for mining?

 

Alternatively, this amount of energy could simply not be used at all, meaning that it wouldn't need to be generated at all.

12 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

that's your opinion, tbh

it's using energy, like everything else

 

there's no "better" or "worse" way to use energy, it's up to individual opinion

some of us may agree with your view, some may not

Wow, just wow. No, for Christs sake, this is not my personal opinion. This is common sense that we should all reduce how much energy we use and not drive up the amount by several x! This is insane. This is not about how you use energy, but about how much you use and the overall amount of energy that needs to be produced in the first place getting bloated! I hope this is now absolutely clear. And no, it is not okay to simply use a ton of energy because you can pay for it. Stop labeling everything as personal opinions that one can simply disagree with, maybe start looking into what the gross majority of environmental scientists say about x-folding the energy usage per capita. Holy smokes this is painful.

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

You honestly feel entitled to using the typical energy 3 people would use all for yourself, just for mining?

yes...? i paid for it

 

2 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Alternatively, this amount of energy could simply not be used at all, meaning that it wouldn't need to be generated at all.

you're speaking as if energy is a very scarce resource and we should be conserving it as best as we could

 

because of carbon footprint? i have solar, do you?

not that solar grants me 0 carbon footprint, the energy needed to manufacture the panels and what not is unknown to me

[Bombastinator]

24 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

Hey bud, do you mind me asking what type of cards your are mining with?

This was stated earlier in the thread. Some sort of higher end gaming rig.  It’s apparently more or less a f@h thing.  Something to do with a games machine when it is not being used for gaming.   It’s arguably a lot less ethically iffy because it’s effectively a bit like f@h for ones one gain rather than that of scientific endeavor.  Puts hardware to use that is otherwise just sitting around.  It’s kind of tempting really.  My computer isn’t powerful enough to do it efficiently quite aside from the point that I don’t especially like the South American drug lord connection.

[Dracarris]

Just now, Moonzy said:

you're speaking as if energy is a very scarce resource and we should be conserving it as best as we could

well, YES?!! Have you been living under a rock for the past 10years?? This is the whole point!

 

It is indeed nice that you use solar panels which I cannot do since I live in a rented flat. As long as you don't need to pull additional energy from the grid for your mining operation, fine - feeding your solar power back to the grid would however be much better. But since this is your own renewably-sourced energy, do whatever you want with it. I will leave the environmental impact of producing solar panels out of the picture here as I don't know too much about it and the life span seems now to be 25-30years which is great IMHO.

[Moonzy]

17 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

aside from the point that I don’t especially like the South American drug lord connection.

i mean... people do deals in USD too? or im just entirely wrong

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

i mean... people do deals in USD too? or im just entirely wrong

There is one major cartel that publicly announced some years ago it will deal in only Bitcoin.  Local dealers will likely deal in local currency though.  It’s the international movement and large sums that require  cryptocoin.  Cryptocoin was a revolution for illegal activities.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Bombastinator

[Moonzy]

13 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

well, YES?!! Have you been living under a rock for the past 10years?? This is the whole point!

 

It is indeed nice that you use solar panels which I cannot do since I live in a rented flat. As long as you don't need to pull additional energy from the grid for your mining operation, fine - feeding your solar power back to the grid would however be much better. But since this is your own renewably-sourced energy, do whatever you want with it. I will leave the environmental impact of producing solar panels out of the picture here as I don't know too much about it and the life span seems now to be 25-30years which is great IMHO.

all in all, there are many things we could do to reduce greenhouse gas emissions

stop mining, stop gaming, stop using AC, stop using TV -resist urge to make return to monke meme-

in fact, humans, just by being alive, is a huge waste of energy if you look it up, so genocide is also on the plate, if reducing carbon footprint is the ideal we should strive for

 

but we all have different ways to enjoy ourselves

[MageTank]

22 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

No, just no. The direction of this thread was turned by other people towards the general discussion about mining.

Mining on such a large scale as he does can indeed be profitable if done right, at the expense of an utter shitload of wasted energy. I invite you again to carefully read through the comparison of energy for mining vs for a whole household to get a grasp of the scale on which miners are just dumping energy. And no, I will say it again, whether wasting these amounts of energy is a sensible thing to do or not, is not up to personal opinions. There is nothing to not understand about how wasteful mining is and I am glad people on this forum are intelligent enough to put common sense and responsibility for the environment over selfish financial interests of individuals. There is nothing subjetive about the worthiness of using such drastic amounts of energy to make some moneyZ.

This logic is so easy to apply to virtually every facet of our first world commodities. In fact, I'll go as far to say that gaming GPU's are a direct contradiction to your logic here as gaming is nothing more than a waste of time and the components themselves are a waste of precious resources that could be used elsewhere. Are you one of those people that likes to cherry pick right and wrong based on scaling? Hitch that high horse of yours and give the poor thing a chance to drink.

 

The energy consumption issue isn't exclusive to mining. Energy is wasted on servers hosting MMO's, download servers hosting games (Steam, EPIC, Origin, UPlay, ETC) and plenty of energy is wasted by developers making said forms of entertainment. This isn't limited to gaming either, as other forums of entertainment such as cinema and high-end animation use a ton of processing power for their footage. I guess using energy for profits is only morally okay if you're getting entertained along the way, right?

 

I'd be far more sympathetic to the anti-mining crusade of there wasn't so much hypocrisy behind it. On the surface, the complaint starts with gamers wanting GPU's and miners being evil for taking them. When you start to dig and break that argument down, they try to bolster their points by becoming humanitarians and start to care about the earth, but only a little. Not enough to really devote to it and change their own habits, only police others that they disagree with for the sake of convenience as it'll result in a better chance at getting a GPU so they can continue to enjoy their own wasteful habits. 

 

There is no getting around it, none of us are altruistic in this situation. We all want a GPU, and most of us want it for selfish reasons. Whether that is for mining, for gaming, or because I want to build a system entirely consisting of copper tubing and stainless steel blocks with no practical intent to use the hardware for anything other than looking pretty on my bench. Anyone that claims otherwise is either lying, or is as righteous as Macho Man himself. Only one of those things is possible.

 

Full disclosure, I myself indulge in gaming when I somehow find the time, same goes for overclocking and other pointless wasteful activities. My high horse is less horse-shaped and more donkey-shaped.

[done12many2]

11 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

all in all, there are many things we could do to reduce greenhouse gas emissions

stop mining, stop gaming, stop using AC, stop using TV -resist urge to make return to monke meme-

I'm guilty of all the above.  

Man it's good to be back to the LTT community.  A lot has changed, while a great deal has remained the same!

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

I'm guilty of all the above.  

lets stop using technology, lets be monke i can't resist, it's too good

 

[Dracarris]

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

all in all, there are many things we could do to reduce greenhouse gas emissions

 

56 minutes ago, MageTank said:

This logic is so easy to apply to virtually every facet of our first world commodities. In fact, I'll go as far to say that gaming GPU's are a direct contradiction to your logic here as gaming is nothing more than a waste of time and the components themselves are a waste of precious resources that could be used elsewhere. Are you one of those people that likes to cherry pick right and wrong based on scaling? Hitch that high horse of yours and give the poor thing a chance to drink.

 

This is all true, but you always have to consider the effort you put in and the amount of energy saved. Stopping mining is absolutely trivial, requires zero effort and the potentials for saving energy are absolutely enormous as I have shown in a qunatitative way here.

 

Since everyone brings up the "gaming wastes also energy"-argument again and again, let me re-stress this: Lets assume my gaming rig causes 10% of the total energy used in our household, which is most probably a gross overestimation, that equates to 16.1kWh per month. The entry-level mining rig from @Moonzy consumes around 280kWh per month. That results in mining using more than 17x the energy compared to gaming, which again gives many people the benefits of stress relief and recreation. Sure gaming is a luxury commodity, just as mining is. And when it comes to the question which one we should cut, I think the answer is quite clear. Start cutting where you can safe the most with the smallest effort, I think this guideline is quite a no-brainer.

 

Sure both mining and gaming require servers and online infrastructure and lets say gaming requires more, reducing the gap to 10x-15x. Still quite a clear picture where we could safe most.

[Moonzy]

Just now, Dracarris said:

Stopping mining is absolutely trivial, requires zero effort and the potentials for saving energy are absolutely enormous as I have shown in a qunatitative way here.

you're ignoring the profits here, quite literally

having my pc provides its own upgrade funds is a huge benefit for me.

the effort to stop is just as much as gaming, if not less because gaming addiction is a thing...

 

gaming on the other hand is more harmful

it doesnt only use energy, you also waste time, time that can be used on better things

 

we all have different opinions and it's ok to agree to disagree

[Dracarris]

6 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

you're ignoring the profits here, quite literally

Yes I do, intentionally. The environment and planet cares jack shit about your or mine personal profits and benefits. For the environmental discussion the only aspect that matters is the amount of greenhouse gases that can be safed.

6 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

we all have different opinions and it's ok to agree to disagree

Again, when discussing what is more harmful for the planet we are not discussing any personal opinions but objective facts.

[Moonzy]

Just now, Dracarris said:

The environment and planet cares jack shit about your or mine personal profits and benefits.

uhmm...

11 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

which again gives many people the benefits of stress relief and recreation.

hypocrite?

 

again, lets return to monke!

[Dracarris]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

hypocrite?

Not at all. Mining gives you benefits, gaming others. So no matter which one is stopped, a group of people will loose their benefits. The very important difference is that in one case the benefits for the environment are vastly greater than in the other. I can't believe it takes three posts to make this point clear to you.

 

If I run some decorative Christmas lights that consume 2W and a millionaire runs a personal roller coaster that consumes 20kW both are for entertainment. Under environmental aspects, which one should be stopped first to make the largest impact?

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, Dracarris said:

The very important difference is that in one case the benefits for the environment are vastly greater than in the other.

citation needed, from game dev cycle down to user

 

1 minute ago, Dracarris said:

If I run some decorative Christmas lights that consume 2W and a millionaire runs a personal roller coaster that consumes 20kW both are for entertainment. Under environmental aspects, which one should be stopped first to make the largest impact?

both, both are unnecessary

no preferential here

 

one man kills 1 person, the other man kill 5, who should be arrested?

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

5 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

you're ignoring the profits here, quite literally

having my pc provides its own upgrade funds is a huge benefit for me.

the effort to stop is just as much as gaming, if not less because gaming addiction is a thing...

 

gaming on the other hand is more harmful

it doesnt only use energy, you also waste time, time that can be used on better things

 

we all have different opinions and it's ok to agree to disagree

I do not like this line of thinking at all.

 

There are no "opinions" about this, so get off your god damn high horse and look at the actual matters for just a minute.

 

This idea of mining for the profits falls into the exact same line of thinking that many scalpers have. "hey we bought it, so it is fair. Nobody has a right to complain about how much we choose to sell the cards for hurr durr capitalism". This I will absolutely not ever entertain, and this kind of ultra-linear thinking is what got us into so many nightmares in the tech world alone.

Doing it for the science? Redundant as it is the world's least efficient way to learn about discreet mathematics.
Doing it to "kill fiat"? Lmao, good luck with that. That is the same nonsense preached by the miners back in 2013, and looking at the real world, zero progress has been made.

Doing it for fun? both of the previous objections stand here.

 

 

Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

[Dracarris]

9 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

citation needed, from game dev cycle down to user

I gave you a lot of evidence already, the gap is so large that it is highly unlikely gaming to be anywhere near that.

9 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

both, both are unnecessary

no preferential here

Oh god how I knew this answer would come. You have absolutely no sense for scales. There are multiple orders of magnitude in between, there is literally no difference for the environment if 20000W or 20002W are safed and the guy with the Christmas decoration can still enjoy his lights. You try so hard to reject common sense here.

9 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

one man kills 1 person, the other man kill 5, who should be arrested?

This analogy is so utterly bad.. But sure: If there is only one free cell in the prison, I think you know who to arrest.

[Dracarris]

5 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

This idea of mining for the profits falls into the exact same line of thinking that many scalpers have. "hey we bought it, so it is fair. Nobody has a right to complain about how much we choose to sell the cards for hurr durr capitalism". This I will absolutely not ever entertain, and this kind of ultra-linear thinking is what got us into so many nightmares in the tech world alone.

 

6 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

Couldn't agree more.

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

I gave you a lot of evidence already, the gap is so large that it is highly unlikely gaming to be anywhere near that.

gaming vs mining, but you did not include game devs, and the psychological impact of games, that affects society

you're gonna need to do a lot of digging

 

5 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Oh god how I knew this answer would come. You have absolutely no sense for scales. There are multiple orders of magnitude in between, there is literally no difference for the environment if 20000W or 20002W are safed and the guy with the Christmas decoration can still enjoy his lights. You try so hard to reject common sense here.

there's top 0.1% millionaire

there's a bajillion people with christmas lights, there's your scale

 

3 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

I think you know who to arrest.

both, in the same cell

 

preferably, give them a knife and u get environmental friendly entertainment

[Dracarris]

2 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

there's top 0.1% millionaire

there's a bajillion people with christmas lights, there's your scale

You completely missed the point of the analogy and derailed it. Equal amounts of rollercoasters and christmas lights, of course!

3 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

both, in the same cell

Again, completely off-point. You either lack common sense or intentionally hide it during this discussion.

[done12many2]

@Moonzy You gonna send me that address?  If you don't want to, I completely understand.  I just wanted to assure you that I wasn't kidding. 

[Moonzy]

25 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

"hey we bought it, so it is fair. Nobody has a right to complain about how much we choose to sell the cards for hurr durr capitalism"

so you're against people making profits? against retail?

retail, as far as i know, charge a mark up just like scalpers, just at a lower margin, but larger scale

 

25 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

This I will absolutely not ever entertain, and this kind of ultra-linear thinking is what got us into so many nightmares in the tech world alone.

and i absolutely agree, i wont agree with what they're doing is right, but i can also understand why they do it, it's basically opportunists

just dont entertain it and they'll go away, but sadly people are buying from them, giving them more funds to do more scalping

 

25 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

so far i did not receive any citations, while i did my math just for him because he asked so many times for it

he said im making claims i couldnt back, and i backed it up

 

until he can prove that gaming industry as a whole has less impact on society in all aspects, i'll take it as facts

 

10 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

You completely missed the point of the analogy and derailed it. Equal amounts of rollercoasters and christmas lights, of course!

you want to argue about scale but that's how things are irl?

how many roller coasters vs how many christmas lights? pretty sure Christmas lights power consumption is higher than roller coasters

 

10 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Again, completely off-point. You either lack common sense or intentionally hide it during this discussion.

so, what, let the other man roam free?

preferential treatment is what's happening here

 

2 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

@Moonzy You gonna send me that address?  If you don't want to, I completely understand.  I just wanted to assure you that I wasn't kidding. 

sure' i'll DM u

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

 

you're speaking as if energy is a very scarce resource and we should be conserving it as best as we could

 

Because it is.

 

Here in BC, despite having some of the cleanest sources of energy in the world, we are constantly reminded (or maybe even nagged) to save energy because generation resources are finite.

 

BC, Quebec, Manitoba and Newfoundland & Labrador have no coal generation. BC and NL also have no Nuclear generation capacity. Yukon, Nunavut and NWT are dependent on hydro and gas/oil generation capacity and there is limited generation capacity there. 

 

Likewise for the US. Hawaii, Alaska, PR all have limited generation capacity. Only six states have clean renewable energy sources while 9 have nuclear capacity. The rest are fossil-fuel.

 

 

Latin/South America, the situation is even worse

 

 

"Green" sources of energy are often exported. In the case of BC, BC buys generation capacity from Alberta during low-cost off-peak periods, and Alberta buys generation capacity from BC during peak periods. There is no such thing, at least in North America as "only using green energy", because ultimately everyone in the province/state is using the same generation capacity, and it's just a question of who is providing the bulk of the generation capacity. There have been periods in the past where smelters in BC were shutdown and the electricity was sold to California (remember the Enron scandal?) because they were suffering from rolling blackouts due to the shutdown of their more expensive generation capacity.

 

You can't outsource energy generation capacity. You can adjust the mixture depending on demands, and if cryptomining fads continue, along with the switch to electric vehicles, more generation capacity will need to be built, and all the nags about saving energy from the utility company will do nothing when you've already switched your incandescent and CFL lights for LED lights (which are measured in single watts) when mining and electric vehicles are measured in kilowatts of usage.

 

If all generation capacity is exhausted, there are no interties to other regions.

 

If you are in WECC, you do not get energy from the rest of the continent. Likewise generation capacity in each region is independent. If something damages one of these power grids and renders it unusable for a length of time, do you really want crypto miners and factories to have priority over people's homes? No. 

 

As mentioned earlier about Enron, physical damage need not be the only thing that can affect the power grid. Manipulation of energy prices by shutting down your own expensive generation sources to conserve money for a utility results in higher energy prices for everyone on the grid. 

 

With the move to green energy sources and utilities, dirty generation sources are supposed to be taken offline, but instead miners are buying the cheap energy and keeping the plants running. Carbon credits be damned, it doesn't how much green generation capacity exists if no legacy dirty energy is taken offline permanently.