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Another ARM(1) - Apple event introduces new low-end Macs as well as updated OS

williamcll
By williamcll
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Go to solution Solved by LAwLz,

Apple's first silicon for PCs will be named "M1".

 

 

CPU:

  • 4 big cores that are, according to Apple, "the fastest core in the world", and I actually believe them. I would not be surprised if this CPU core performs better than Zen 3.
  • 4 small cores that are meant for power efficiency. Didn't quite hear what Apple said about performance but I do believe they said the quad core low power cores would offer performance better than the dual core Intel Mac. I am far more skeptical of that claim though, and they might be measuring at some specific power level that is optimal for the M1's small cores but not for whichever Intel CPU they are comparing it against.
  • At 10 watts of power limit (the MacBook Air limit) the M1 offers twice the performance of Intel's latest CPU.
  • 3 times higher performance per watt compared to Intel at other power budgets.

 

GPU:

  • 8 cores.
  • 128 execution units.
  • 2.6 TFLOPs of performance.
  • 82 gigatexels per second
  • 41 gigapixels per second.
  • Twice the performance per watt at 10 watts power envelop, but we have no idea which chip they are comparing against (probably the Intel chip in the latest Macbook).
  • "World's fastest integrated graphics".

 

 

Other:

  • 16-core Neural Engine with 11 trillion operations per second.
  • It's an SoC, so it as a lot of stuff built in. Basically everything is on a single chip just like in the iPhone and iPads.
  • It has a "unified memory architecture" which lets all SoC components (CPU, GPU and I presume NPU) access the same memory directly. So no need for the GPU to request resources from the CPU.
  • 16 billion 5nm transistors.
  • Secure enclave built in.
  • Very low power video playback.
  • Neural Engine.
  • PCIe 4.0 support
  • Thunderbolt and USB 4 support.
  • Very good image processing (probably the same as in the iPhone).
  • Crypt accelerator (although a lot of CPUs has this these days).
  • NVMe support
  • "Always-on processor" which probably refers to some very deep sleep state.

 

 

Software:

  • MacOS using M1 processors can directly run iPhone and iPad apps!
  • MacOS Big Sur has been optimized for the M1.
  • "iPhone-style instant-on" which to me mean you never really turn the computer off, you just lock it and it goes into sleep. This is really nice.
  • Safari is 1.9x as responsive on the M1 compared to some other Mac configuration. They don't specify what they are comparing against really.
  • "Universal apps" is Apple's name for packaging both ARM and x86 compatible apps into one program. So developers only have to release one version of their apps and it will be able to run on both ARM and x86. None of this "which version do you want to download ARM|x86" we have seen on Windows.
  • Rosetta 2 allows x86-only programs to run on Apple's ARM processor. According to Apple some programs even perform better on Rosetta 2 than on an x86 Mac. But that might just be some handful of apps and because the M1 is faster than the x86 processor. Performance remains to be seen.
Posted

One more reason to skip the 1st gen Apple Silicon Macs and wait for discounted Intel based Macs.

It's a high possibility that Apple will still ship a 16" MacBook Pro with an i9 11th gen/Tiger Lake chip. Based on the number of videos from Apple execs that I've watched, they're not going to pull the same PowerPC stunt where only two macOS versions are released that are Universal Binary (OS X Tiger and Leopard). Meaning that Intel based Macs will have a longer OS support from Apple this time.

 

There is more that meets the eye
I see the soul that is inside

 

 

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Posted
53 minutes ago, like_ooh_ahh said:

It's a high possibility that Apple will still ship a 16" MacBook Pro with an i9 11th gen/Tiger Lake chip. Based on the number of videos from Apple execs that I've watched, they're not going to pull the same PowerPC stunt where only two macOS versions are released that are Universal Binary (OS X Tiger and Leopard). Meaning that Intel based Macs will have a longer OS support from Apple this time.

Back then Apple wasn't doing an OS a year. It was more like an OS every 2-3 years. Tiger on Intel came out in 2005, Leopard in 2007, and Snow Leopard came out in 2009 (funnily enough this release was actually supposed to be the last release to support PPC, and the first beta actually supports the G4 and the G5, but for some reason they cut it early, probably due to time. I think Snow Leopard was the release that was rushed). That's about 4 years of secondary support before they got canned.

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Posted
2 hours ago, leadeater said:

He didn't say they didn't use custom IC's he said they use standardized parts which you can in fact buy off multitude of different suppliers. As for buying board level components a place to buy those was supplied to you, Mouser. But you honestly never need to go down to something like that when for say an HP EliteBook as you can buy the entire replacement part so cheaply and it's easy to replace the part.

We were talking the whole time about board-level components. Of course I know Mouser, Digikey and so on. But they only sell off-the-shelf ICs and semiconductors, not the custom-made parts that every major laptop manufacturer uses. This is the whole point of this discussion. And so far no one has given me evidence that semiconductors that are custom made for a vendor are available that easily/in these shops. No, a link to mouser.com does not count - not at all.

 

Also on a HP EliteBook there is a main logic board that has a soldered on CPU and GPU, at least. If it breaks, I doubt that it is super cheap to simply replace the whole assembly. Note that also for Macbooks you can get full logic boards, but that was never the goal. On that higher, non-board level I have bought multiple times parts (like batteries, cables/connectors, switches and so on) for various Apple products through ifixit and did the repair myself - cheap, easily and fast.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Note that also for Macbooks you can get full logic boards

Yea, only outside of official channels unless you have been blessed, not the same thing at all. If I need a new keyboard or top cover/track pad I'm 100% not ok with the idea that relying on donor devices is anywhere near the equivalence of buying a brand new official replacement part (or short lived soon to be Apple stomped rouge supplier doing it on the side till found out).

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Posted
1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Yea, only outside of official channels unless you have been blessed, not the same thing at all. If I need a new keyboard or top cover/track pad I'm 100% not ok with the idea that relying on donor devices is anywhere near the equivalence of buying a brand new official replacement part (or short lived soon to be Apple stomped rouge supplier doing it on the side till found out).

Send it to Apple or an AASP for repair. The costs for the actual work are quite low compared to what they charge for the replacement parts. Admittedly here Apple is doing pretty bad, but that was not the point of the whole discussion as we were discussing board-level repairs.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Back then Apple wasn't doing an OS a year. It was more like an OS every 2-3 years. Tiger on Intel came out in 2005, Leopard in 2007, and Snow Leopard came out in 2009 (funnily enough this release was actually supposed to be the last release to support PPC, and the first beta actually supports the G4 and the G5, but for some reason they cut it early, probably due to time. I think Snow Leopard was the release that was rushed). That's about 4 years of secondary support before they got canned.

But it was an easy decision for Apple to axe PowerPC support because their marketshare was way smaller in 2008-2009 compared to 2020. I would disagree with Snow Leopard being rushed because even if it looks the same as Leopard, the under the hood enhancements makes $29 for an upgrade DVD worth it. 

  • It has built in support for MS Exchange, something Windows 7 doesn’t have
  • Because they removed the PowerPC compatibility binary, it saved at least 20 GB of free disk space 
  • QuickTime X is something ahead of its time with its ability to trim videos and screen record 
  • Third party plugins run outside of the Safari process, so should Adobe Flash crash, it will not crash the entire browser (although Google Chrome had it first) 
  • Basically, Snow Leopard is a performance bump for Macs back in the day, imo

 

There is more that meets the eye
I see the soul that is inside

 

 

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Send it to Apple or an AASP for repair. The costs for the actual work are quite low compared to what they charge for the replacement parts. Admittedly here Apple is doing pretty bad, but that was not the point of the whole discussion as we were discussing board-level repairs.

Good luck when it's both out of support and also there isn't an AASP in your town. If it's not in warranty and Apple would fix it you pay for the part and the time, neither being cheap. If I take myself out of the equation for doing it as that's not fair my local PC store is cheaper than what Apple charges.

 

The other trick we have to play here is to call outside of local support center hours so we get the US support center as they far more readily offer better options like complete swap of device instead of weeks of down time from not having your device at all while it's out for repair.

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Posted

I'm inclined to bet against the possibility of further Intel portable Mac refreshes. I expect the 16" MBP to have its M1X treatment sometime after Spring 2021, and a 14" MBP to replace the 1800 USD 13" MBP with 4 USB-C ports that still is Intel based.

 

The 13" 2 USB-C MBP with the M1 will likely receive no further refreshes; that will give clear stratification between Air and the Pro beyond the dumb Touch Bar and active cooling. Best case scenario is Apple throws a bone to that price gap with a $100-150 price drop for the base model 14" MBP.

2 hours ago, like_ooh_ahh said:

One more reason to skip the 1st gen Apple Silicon Macs and wait for discounted Intel based Macs.

It's a high possibility that Apple will still ship a 16" MacBook Pro with an i9 11th gen/Tiger Lake chip. Based on the number of videos from Apple execs that I've watched, they're not going to pull the same PowerPC stunt where only two macOS versions are released that are Universal Binary (OS X Tiger and Leopard). Meaning that Intel based Macs will have a longer OS support from Apple this time.

 

 

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Posted
On 11/10/2020 at 12:06 PM, Camoxide said:

The webcam is still 720P 

 

Bruh... 

It will be interesting if through AI they can upsample as well as Nvidia does w/DLSS 2.0. If they can, I doubt anyone will notice the difference. Lens quality w/low light handling is more important,  I would think.

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Posted
On 11/10/2020 at 1:09 PM, leadeater said:

Apple delivering on the I'll believe it when I see it.

What's been on time this year? Nvidia GPUs? AMD CPUs? Consoles? It all sells out fast. The chip foundries can't keep up w/demand.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, IceCaveMan said:

What's been on time this year? Nvidia GPUs? AMD CPUs? Consoles? It all sells out fast. The chip foundries can't keep up w/demand.

I was more referring to performance, people have been talking a big game about Apple SoCs coming to Mac products but when and exactly how has always been up in the air. I never doubted MacBook Air would transition, being an ultra portable low performance product.

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1 hour ago, leadeater said:

I was more referring to performance, people have been talking a big game about Apple SoCs coming to Mac products but when and exactly how has always been up in the air. I never doubted MacBook Air would transition, being an ultra portable low performance product.

Sorry that I missed your point.

 

But now that you clarify...I'm more confused. Are you seriously doubting performance? You are jesting, I assume?

-M1 is pounding it in Geekbench

-It's smoked far more expensive gear in video and file compression

-It's obliterating top end new Intel and Ryzen *desktop* CPU/GPU combos in bitmap and vector graphic performance (Affinity benchmarks)

-Industry leading 3d vendor Maxon Cinema 4D (I'm a big c4d 3d artist) has said this of M1 performance: 

"The new systems deliver industry-leading speed and power, with high performance GPUs. For a 3D artist, these speed and efficiency gains will be invaluable to the creative process. Cinema 4D running on M1 will deliver a world-class workflow experience.”*

...that's the word from the Cinebench folks.

 

*https://www.maxon.net/en/article/maxon-cinema-4d-immediately-available-for-m1-powered-macs

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, IceCaveMan said:

M1 is pounding it in Geekbench

GB is a poor reflection of general application performance and it also doesn't test any of the ASIC/Accelerated parts of the SoC which could be the more interesting aspects of it. If Apple is going to integrate usage of those in to their core software then it's really important we see that being tested and what impact it has.

 

9 minutes ago, IceCaveMan said:

-Industry leading 3d vendor Maxon Cinema 4D (I'm a big c4d 3d artist) has said this of M1 performance: "Industry-leading speed and power, with high performance GPUs..." Maxon's words*...the Cinebench folks.

You'll find those comments are in relation to the product class the M1 is designed to be used in. Nothing is not true about this here but if you seriously think the M1 is going to be an overall higher performance CPU than a 5900X, 5950X, 10900/10900K or Intel HEDT then you're a bit out of touch.

 

Also you should always doubt performance claims until supporting data can back them up, remember the move to ARM CPUs has been talked about for years and years along with very bold claims. I, and you, should really have no reason to just outright believe such things. And my original post you replied to was saying just that, not sure why you are confused. It's saying Apple is actually delivering on those performance claims.

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Posted

I love how it is low-end products announced yet the M1 out benchmarks Intel and AMD lol, good stuff!

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Posted
28 minutes ago, leadeater said:

GB is a poor reflection of general application performance and it also doesn't test any of the ASIC/Accelerated parts of the SoC which could be the more interesting aspects of it. If Apple is going to integrate usage of those in to their core software then it's really important we see that being tested and what impact it has.

 

You'll find those comments are in relation to the product class the M1 is designed to be used in. Nothing is not true about this here but if you seriously think the M1 is going to be an overall higher performance CPU than a 5900X, 5950X, 10900/10900K or Intel HEDT then you're a bit out of touch.

I won't be buying any of the M1 products as Apple screwed me over relative to support of my MBP 2016...refused to honor their warranty a mere four months in. I won't forget that. My next purchase is Nvidia GPU for one of my Windows PCs.

 

But as a mixed Windows/PC guy I try to be objective and fair regarding reviews. I've had bad experiences w/both Mac and PC. Fair is fair. Do we agree?

 

As for me being "out of touch"...maybe. I have won contracts for a number of Fortune 500 companies (new media and database). But still...I concede...maybe so.

 

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26 minutes ago, IceCaveMan said:

As for me being "out of touch"...maybe. I have won contracts for a number of Fortune 500 companies (new media and database). But still...I concede...maybe so.

Honestly it really doesn't matter if you are or not, because in the right hands you can do amazing work with limited resources and there are so many people actually doing just that. Having top end equipment/computers can often just be nicer rather than an outright requirement to make something possible, though that can also be true.

 

So the dirty secret within the PC enthusiast community is the things we love are rarely actually required lol.

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38 minutes ago, RoseLuck462 said:

I love how it is low-end products announced yet the M1 out benchmarks Intel and AMD lol, good stuff!

It’s even more fun that a lot of people on tech forums refuse to accept those results. Go read the leaked GeekBench scores thread here in the news section.

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29 minutes ago, leadeater said:

So the dirty secret within the PC enthusiast community is the things we love are rarely actually required lol.

So true! But I admit it...I do love speed. And love innovation whenever...wherever it appears. I so wish it wasn't so often connected to wild greed and industry politics. The richest global company makes the best products...but crushes users, employees and vendors in the process.... Am I permitted for a moment to appreciate the conception, engineering and design, before shunning their products and their dark overlord?

 

The great Pyramids come to mind.

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Posted (edited)
On 11/13/2020 at 10:02 PM, Blademaster91 said:

And you're trying to say that because some people had an issue with windows update that means windows is broken for everyone, which is not the case.

Ah you again. You're mixing up my points and trying to insinuate so random things here. I said Windows 10 is mess for everyone, citing the reasons that I've already written in previous posts so many times. 

Second, that above one you quoted was a reply to a point brought up by him tare very rare cases. Which is was not.

Quote

Thats why people should back up their files.

Sure, blame the user for not backing up their files. It's funny how some people like to use such statements as justification when in reality it's more like you've run out of arguments to justify an update deleting people's files

Quote

As @leadeater mentioned, the news sites posting news on windows even if its a issue only a few people might have, as its an easy way for those sites to get clicks.

Do you have any proof for this? Most websites that cover the news actually gives some substantial information as to what the new bug is this time around. That is some legitimate information.

Quote

Citation needed.

https://linustechtips.com/topic/827845-apple-wants-your-money-to-help-huricane-harvey-survivors/

Read the title, go through the entire post and the comments following the original post. It's pathetic tbh.

Quote

Microsoft delayed the 2004 version update to fix it, rather than pushing the update out and some people will complain they have issues with it. But I guess people will still complain when an update gets pushed back.

You seriously seem to have some issue comprehending. When did I complain about them delaying updates? Please, do me a favor and point it out. I know you are a ardent Apple hater and hence hate me but trying to spin the narrative in a as to discredit my criticisms is a new one.

 

They delayed the update to fix it! Why did it need so much fixing after the final codebase to release was ready? When Apple or Google release a new OS, they stick to a particular timeline and release their updates. Microsoft seems to be the only company that struggles with new releases so much. Microsoft is well aware about the fact that their final versions of their updates are broken. And they release it such a staggered manner, so only less people experience issue and they will get time to fix it before the information starts getting traction on the internet. That's why they delay it from initial timeline they set for themselves. That's why they release it in such a staggered manner - while companies like Apple release it to everybody at once

 

Oh and I forgot another broken thing in Windows: The damn Windows Search. It's next to useless. The only times Microsoft can make good software is when they open source it - like VSCode, Terminal, and Powertoys

Edited by RedRound2
Forgot to mention one of the most broken things about Windows & added link for the proof he asked (which I forgot to attach earlier)
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1 hour ago, Spindel said:

It’s even more fun that a lot of people on tech forums refuse to accept those results. Go read the leaked GeekBench scores thread here in the news section.

I think everyone on both sides are taking all of this too seriously.  The haters are hating too much, the lovers loving too much. 

 

I've been using Apple products since before most people on this forum were born. I got apple products I've forgotten about in various parts of my aparment waiting for rediscovery.

 

The presentation video was a very well produced marketing video focusing on a lot of sizzle, but not much steak. They said a lot of things....that don't mean that much. I'm sure every statement is true...from a certain point of view, because that's how marketing works.

 

Apple doesn't get into the weeds of tech numbers because that's not their audience. (Linus whining about that while nvidia and amd do on WAN show today is either disgenious or he doesn't understand that there's a difference between the company selling complete products  vs the companies selling components to companies that sell complete products. )....and yes, the graphs in the presentation were laughable to a hardcore tech audience who wants number details, but that's not who that presentation was for. It was for mainstream press, mainstream people.  I was surprised at the level of detail they did get into with the M1...it wasn't super deep, but it was more than "here's where we house the fairies that power this".  It was buzz words and impressive quotes that mean enough for the common buyers and investors.

 

Even the leaked numbers don't mean much without further context...but we'll start seeing some context next week. I hope @GabenJr does some clever tests to explore how these work...not just "Oh it got a cinebench score over 9000" but things that really explain what this new thing is and does.

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Posted

 

2 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

(Linus whining about that while nvidia and amd do on WAN show today is either disgenious or he doesn't understand that there's a difference between the company selling complete products  vs the companies selling components to companies that sell complete products. )

I think Linus is just playing a role, and Linus understands well that drama sells.

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Posted

Listening to WAN

- uhh the multi-milllion dollar entertainer was “irate, in a bad mood” on a scripted video

- he insists something that run freaking macOS is “an ipad with a keyboard”

- he insists “it haz no photoshop” (Tuesday evening will be fun if the Intel x86 build will run perfectly fine via Rosetta once the first customers receive the Macs), and really, are we complaining about some months of waiting in a once-every-15-years transition?

- he missed the reason the new Mini is silver and there’s still the darker one on sale, imagine if a new dark Mini with up to 64GB ram and 10GbE is out by April

- geekbench “sucks”

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3 hours ago, RoseLuck462 said:

I love how it is low-end products announced yet the M1 out benchmarks Intel and AMD lol, good stuff!

on 1 horrible benchmark. means nothing. the only thing worse would be a userbenchmark score

Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

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Posted

It’s not like Apple has been pushing these performance champion CPUs on mobile for the good part of a decade...how can we trust them based on one “horrible” (the hate geekbench gets...everyone is a fine benchmarks connoisseur now...) benchmark..

 

Linus: “not like apple can add fixed function hw for every scenario”

 

Meanwhile even the general purpose CPU performances-per-watt are generation-defining...

 

People, enjoy this last weekend where you can play the doubt card, next week is going to be crazy with the first units being delivered to users.

 

Better start to reevaluate your stock portfolio if it includes CPU makers. 

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Posted
6 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Send it to Apple or an AASP for repair. The costs for the actual work are quite low compared to what they charge for the replacement parts. Admittedly here Apple is doing pretty bad, but that was not the point of the whole discussion as we were discussing board-level repairs.

is that a joke. I'll wait 2-4 weeks get charged 10x the price I should because they just play dart board with what is wrong.

HP, dell, lenovo can all get my parts in under 2 days time.

 

I pulled open my probook 445R G6 and started looking at IC

Spoiler

found a GST5009B-LF Ethernet IC https://www.kynix.com/Detail/520384/GST5009B-LF.html and  I can get pinouts for it as well

I can't flip the board over as the machine is still on so that was all the ICs on this side

 

Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

NightHawk 3.0: R7 5700x @, B550A vision D, H105, 2x32gb Oloy 3600, Sapphire RX 6700XT  Nitro+, Corsair RM750X, 500 gb 850 evo, 2tb rocket and 5tb Toshiba x300, 2x 6TB WD Black W10 all in a 750D airflow.
GF PC: (nighthawk 2.0): R7 2700x, B450m vision D, 4x8gb Geli 2933, Strix GTX970, CX650M RGB, Obsidian 350D

Skunkworks: R5 3500U, 16gb, 500gb Adata XPG 6000 lite, Vega 8. HP probook G455R G6 Ubuntu 20. LTS

Condor (MC server): 6600K, z170m plus, 16gb corsair vengeance LPX, samsung 750 evo, EVGA BR 450.

Spirt  (NAS) ASUS Z9PR-D12, 2x E5 2620V2, 8x4gb, 24 3tb HDD. F80 800gb cache, trueNAS, 2x12disk raid Z3 stripped

PSU Tier List      Motherboard Tier List     SSD Tier List     How to get PC parts cheap    HP probook 445R G6 review

 

"Stupidity is like trying to find a limit of a constant. You are never truly smart in something, just less stupid."

Camera Gear: X-S10, 16-80 F4, 60D, 24-105 F4, 50mm F1.4, Helios44-m, 2 Cos-11D lavs

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