What feature in your car could you not live without?

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Yeah but most gas stations dont have electric car chargers either. At least on in Michigan. I dont think I have ever seen a public electric car charger. Also, the electrical grid in the good old US of A is very old and prone to failure. 

Its never going to catch on unless it works like gas. It takes me like a whole 10 min to fill up at a gas pump. If electric isn't going to be like that then people are not going to want them. Also, 220v while used in US homes, its not a common outlet to have an extra of. I know for a fact our electrical panel in our home would require replacement to put any more circuits in it, we only have 100 amps. To do that kind of electrical work would costs a forturne. Most people are not going to buy a car and then have to spend a metric shit ton on electrical work. 

I’m not at all sure of that.  220 is not difficult to get in the US, though getting it into ones garage can be problematic and might require more wiring.  Once that is done it’s actually better than gas.  The big problem is apartment buildings and elevated parking ramps and stuff.    There’s going to have to be big movement there.  Single family homes though, no big deal.

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Yeah but most gas stations dont have electric car chargers either. At least on in Michigan. I dont think I have ever seen a public electric car charger. Also, the electrical grid in the good old US of A is very old and prone to failure. 

Its never going to catch on unless it works like gas. It takes me like a whole 10 min to fill up at a gas pump. If electric isn't going to be like that then people are not going to want them. Also, 220v while used in US homes, its not a common outlet to have an extra of. I know for a fact our electrical panel in our home would require replacement to put any more circuits in it, we only have 100 amps. To do that kind of electrical work would costs a forturne. Most people are not going to buy a car and then have to spend a metric shit ton on electrical work. 

So you box is full.  You got an electric dryer or an electric stove?  Boom.  You’re done.  You just won’t be able to dry your clothes and charge your car at the same time.

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

So you box is full.  You got an electric dryer or an electric stove?  Boom.  You’re done.  You just won’t be able to dry your clothes and charge your car at the same time.

Yeah that doesn't work. Also we dont use electric appliances. We have natural gas. 

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Yeah but most gas stations dont have electric car chargers either. At least on in Michigan. I dont think I have ever seen a public electric car charger. Also, the electrical grid in the good old US of A is very old and prone to failure. 

Actually that is changing. A lot of new public chargers are installed by Gas Station chains (such as Shell). Not sure where Michigan is, in terms of their EV charger build-out, but it's changing - and Gas Stations have a 100 year head start, so of course it's not comparable yet.

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Its never going to catch on unless it works like gas. It takes me like a whole 10 min to fill up at a gas pump.

But why would you need to do that? Remember, your "gas station" is your home. You wake up and your car is already fully charged.

 

On top of that, with DC Fast Charging, you will be able to charge your car in like 10-20 minutes (maybe not from 0 to 100, but enough that you'll still get hundreds of miles of charge in 20 minutes).

 

The new Hummer EV, for example, can take 800V DC Fast Charging. Once that get is wide spread (on EV's, and with public chargers), that problem will more or less be gone. Granted, it'll take some time for that to roll out.

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

If electric isn't going to be like that then people are not going to want them. Also, 220v while used in US homes, its not a common outlet to have an extra of.

True most homes won't have an extra outlet just sitting there, but as long as your panel isn't maxed out, it's generally very inexpensive to add - hence why builders should do it from the beginning.

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

I know for a fact our electrical panel in our home would require replacement to put any more circuits in it, we only have 100 amps. To do that kind of electrical work would costs a forturne. Most people are not going to buy a car and then have to spend a metric shit ton on electrical work. 

100 amp service is typical of old homes. I can't think of any new builds that would come with anything less than 200 amp service.

1 minute ago, crazzyman said:

why on ether should the government mandate homes be have a 240v or a grid upgrade when most people don't even own a electric car?

Simple: Because sooner or later they either will own an EV, or they won't own a car.

 

Also, because we're trying to encourage people to switch. Having a house with a setup that allows you to drop in a commercial charger with no fuss is incredibly useful, and also won't cost the builder much.

[crazzyman]

 

Just now, dalekphalm said:

Simple: Because sooner or later they either will own an EV, or they won't own a car.

Umm no, Maybe in France and other places were non EV cars will be phased out by law.  Their are to many alternative fuels to to make that a problem.

[Donut417]

3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

ctually that is changing. A lot of new public chargers are installed by Gas Station chains (such as Shell). Not sure where Michigan is, in terms of their EV charger build-out, but it's changing - and Gas Stations have a 100 year head start, so of course it's not comparable yet.

Every gas station in the Detroit area I have been to has NO chargers. 

 

3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

rue most homes won't have an extra outlet just sitting there, but as long as your panel isn't maxed out, it's generally very inexpensive to add - hence why builders should do it from the beginning

Doesn't help the older homes. Newer homes are built shitty at least in the US. Old homes tend to be most solid but wiring is older and panels could be full. 

 

4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

100 amp service is typical of old homes. I can't think of any new builds that would come with anything less than 200 amp service.

Lot of older houses in the US dude. Pretty much my entire neighborhood. Most people cant afford to update things like their electrical. 

 

5 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Simple: Because sooner or later they either will own an EV, or they won't own a car.

Thats not how it works. Consumers dictate what they want, companies either produce that or they go out of business. The US government is not likely to regulate gas cars out of existence. California might try, but they will fail. Also with services like Uber and others, I have a feeling a lot of people in the future might not own a car. 

[Bombastinator]

18 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Yeah that doesn't work. Also we dont use electric appliances. We have natural gas. 

Well it does, though apparently not for you. Sounds like you’ll need to do some much overdue electrical work then.

[IkeaGnome]

14 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

-snip-

Also, because we're trying to encourage people to switch. Having a house with a setup that allows you to drop in a commercial charger with no fuss is incredibly useful, and also won't cost the builder much.

I'm all for cutting emissions. I'm lucky enough to have a house with a garage and circuit breaker in it. I already put 220 in it once, and have room for more. I would actually love to get rid of my pickup for an EV or finish paying it off and get an EV. In all honesty, if I can make it make sense an EV will probably be my next go to. There's a whole different can of worms there though. 

https://apnews.com/article/04029bd1e0a94cd59ff9540a398c12d1#:~:text=DETROIT (AP) — Cold temperatures,as much as the cold.

Spoiler

The automobile club tested the cars at 20 degrees and 95 degrees, comparing the range to when they were tested at 75 degrees Fahrenheit, according to a report on the study.

At 20 degrees, the average driving range fell by 12 percent when the car’s cabin heater was not used. When the heater was turned on, the range dropped by 41 percent, AAA said.

20 degrees is a warm winter day for me. I'm roughly 70 miles (112KM) from Anchorage if I need to get anything my small town doesn't have. That's 140 Miles(220+KM) round trip. I have yet to see a single charger up here. Because of winter up here, 4wd is a must. Figure the Model 3, they "claim" 353 miles range. Round down to 35% from the study for errors/better batteries etc. That leave me with approximately a 230 mile range. It's do able, but then figure in I have family that I regularly go see that is 130 miles from me and live in an even smaller town. I'd still need my ICE pickup to get there and back. There's also places I just wouldn't trust any EV over an ICE. A lot of people that go moose hunting up here use special rigs. Large lifts, super wide tires to not break through muskeg. I just wouldn't trust an EV out there. Even if you could get it to float there's a lot more that can go wrong when it breaks through. Snorkels won't help electric motors. 

 

I think EVs will be great in cities in the near future. Out in our rural areas and especially up here in Alaska, we have a long ways to go to get there though. 

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Voluspa said:

I'm all for cutting emissions. I'm lucky enough to have a house with a garage and circuit breaker in it. I already put 220 in it once, and have room for more. I would actually love to get rid of my pickup for an EV or finish paying it off and get an EV. In all honesty, if I can make it make sense an EV will probably be my next go to. There's a whole different can of worms there though. 

https://apnews.com/article/04029bd1e0a94cd59ff9540a398c12d1#:~:text=DETROIT (AP) — Cold temperatures,as much as the cold.

  Reveal hidden contents

The automobile club tested the cars at 20 degrees and 95 degrees, comparing the range to when they were tested at 75 degrees Fahrenheit, according to a report on the study.

At 20 degrees, the average driving range fell by 12 percent when the car’s cabin heater was not used. When the heater was turned on, the range dropped by 41 percent, AAA said.

20 degrees is a warm winter day for me. I'm roughly 70 miles (112KM) from Anchorage if I need to get anything my small town doesn't have. That's 140 Miles(220+KM) round trip. I have yet to see a single charger up here. Because of winter up here, 4wd is a must. Figure the Model 3, they "claim" 353 miles range. Round down to 35% from the study for errors/better batteries etc. That leave me with approximately a 230 mile range. It's do able, but then figure in I have family that I regularly go see that is 130 miles from me and live in an even smaller town. I'd still need my ICE pickup to get there and back. There's also places I just wouldn't trust any EV over an ICE. A lot of people that go moose hunting up here use special rigs. Large lifts, super wide tires to not break through muskeg. I just wouldn't trust an EV out there. Even if you could get it to float there's a lot more that can go wrong when it breaks through. Snorkels won't help electric motors. 

 

I think EVs will be great in cities in the near future. Out in our rural areas and especially up here in Alaska, we have a long ways to go to get there though. 

There are places electric vehicles make less sense.  Not very many people generally live in those places but they do happen.  I expect ICE vehicles won’t completely die for a long time.  In your position the obvious choice is a longer ranged electric car that can do.... i think 440 miles was the latest number?

[Donut417]

6 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Well it does, though apparently not for you. Sounds like you’ll need to do some much overdue electrical work then.

Like I said, old houses all around here. You act like electricians work for peanuts. They dont. The fact that we dont have enough electricians in this country means the price goes up. I can only imagine the costs its going to be to get electrical to our new garage if it ever gets rebuilt. Costs are a major factor. The US government is not going to put that level of burden on its citizens to outlaw gas cars. Because I can the YOU the house I live in is not the only one like this. 

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Like I said, old houses all around here. You act like electricians work for peanuts. They dont. The fact that we dont have enough electricians in this country means the price goes up. I can only imagine the costs its going to be to get electrical to our new garage if it ever gets rebuilt. Costs are a major factor. The US government is not going to put that level of burden on its citizens to outlaw gas cars. Because I can the YOU the house I live in is not the only one like this. 

My house was built in 1929.  It’s multi unit housing so I am literally not allowed to do my own electrical work.  I know what electricians cost.  You’re probably looking at at least a couple grand.  I did 5 refitting from fuses to nreakers and it cost near 6k.  I had a garage recently wired with a brand new separate service for which I specifically specced EMT and oversized wiring because I just like it.  4 240v@20amp outlets went in along with the regular stuff.  It was still under 3k.  Yea it will cost.  Price To be tacked on to the cost of whatever vehicle.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Bombastinator

[Velcade]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:26 PM, Donut417 said:

Yeah but most gas stations dont have electric car chargers either. At least on in Michigan. I dont think I have ever seen a public electric car charger. Also, the electrical grid in the good old US of A is very old and prone to failure. 

I think you'd be surprised if you looked for them.  There's more chargers around they're just not set up like gas stations are set up currently.  Sorry Michigan has such a shitty power grid, I've noticed this comment from you multiple times now.

 

New houses out by me are coming with NEMA 6-50 plugs in the garage, very convenient for home charging.

[IkeaGnome]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

My house was built in 1929.  It’s multi unit housing so I am literally not allowed to do my own electrical work.  I know what electricians cost.  You’re probably looking at at least a couple grand.  I did 5 refitting from fuses to nreakers and it cost near 6k.  I had a garage recently wired with a brand new separate service for which I specifically specced EMT and oversized wiring because I just like it.  4 240v@20amp outlets went in alone with the regular stuff.  It was still under 3k.  Yea it will cost.  Price To be tacked on to the cost of whatever vehicle.

That's rough. I just had one of the sparkies from work get me a list of what I needed. He came to my house, added the breaker, ran outlets where I wanted them and I used metal he brought and put a bumper together for him while he was working on it. I guess that's another bonus to trade work. You can easily, well, trade with it. I know that's not an option for everyone, but it's still an option. It also helps that I own and don't have a multi unit and my garage is detached. I can get away with "shop" style outlets. Running in conduit along the walls etc. 

[Donut417]

Just now, Velcade said:

New houses out by me are coming with NEMA 6-50 plugs in the garage, very convenient for home charging.

Not every one uses their garage to park cars. Before ours burned down, my dad used it as more of a work shop. We wont be parking cars in the new one (If it ever gets built). Not sure if electric chargers can be placed outside?

 

[Velcade]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Not every one uses their garage to park cars. Before ours burned down, my dad used it as more of a work shop. We wont be parking cars in the new one (If it ever gets built). Not sure if electric chargers can be placed outside?

 

Sure they can.  There's models that are built for the elements.

 

Unfortunately most seem to use garages as storage nowadays, it's sad.

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, Voluspa said:

That's rough. I just had one of the sparkies from work get me a list of what I needed. He came to my house, added the breaker, ran outlets where I wanted them and I used metal he brought and put a bumper together for him while he was working on it. I guess that's another bonus to trade work. You can easily, well, trade with it. I know that's not an option for everyone, but it's still an option. It also helps that I own and don't have a multi unit and my garage is detached. I can get away with "shop" style outlets. Running in conduit along the walls etc. 

Nah.  35k to replace part of a falling down foundation.  That was rough.  3k is minor housework.  It’s less than I’m going to be paying for snow removal this year.  So a car costs 43k instead of 40k. It’s not going to stop most people, especially since they’ll eventually get the money back in lower fuel bills.

[Donut417]

4 minutes ago, Velcade said:

Unfortunately most seem to use garages as storage nowadays, it's sad.

Well we only had a car and a half garage and anywhere from 2 to 3 cars at one time, thats including mine. 

 

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

ince they’ll eventually get the money back in lower fuel bills.

Let me fix this. They save money at the pump just to give it to the electric company. The god forbid you dont have a rolling blackout or storm damage and not be able to charge your car. 

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Well we only had a car and a half garage and anywhere from 2 to 3 cars at one time, thats including mine. 

 

Let me fix this. They save money at the pump just to give it to the electric company. The god forbid you dont have a rolling blackout or storm damage and not be able to charge your car. 

It’s like 1/5th as much money though, unless electrical costs go up 500%.  Rolling blackouts actually make an electric car handy.  It can be treated as a power wall. Storm damage happens to gas pumps too.  You’re reaching.

[IkeaGnome]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Nah.  35k to replace part of a falling down foundation.  That was rough.  3k is minor housework.  So a car costs 43k instead of 40k. It’s not going to stop most people, especially since they’ll eventually get the money back in lower fuel bills.

I haven't had anything that big, but when I get back home next month I'm getting a new pressure tank put in for cost of the tank+oil change and a little other PM work on a plumber's truck. I've saved a ton that way, but it's also kind of a perk with remote work. I spend a month at a time with people in all trades. 

 

I think the last sentence there is what people don't realize. The costs will get recouped eventually. I want to do it to lower my personal emissions and all that, but ironically where I live we don't have a typical smog emission problem. Vehicles here aren't the problem. In the winter the air gets really stagnant over the valleys and wood fires actually cause a lot of issue. It's like Fairbanks, but less pronounced. Just look up their smog issues from 2018. It happens in a lot of the valleys here, but on a smaller scale. I know I won't be able to get down to no fossil fuels or emissions based on where I live. Propane heat set low. Stove for the front of the house and a diesel burning Toyo on the back half. Works really well and using all of them no where near their full capacity helps, but doesn't fix it. I'm sure there's only so much you can do too, but it'd be nice to do what we can. It's actually a big part of why I live here. Instead of using large farmed meat, I can go hunt my own meat in a sustainable, natural way. I shop mom and pop as much as I can, which is super easy up here and due to the cost of shipping local grown is actually cheaper or same price as big box stores. There's some things I just can't get away from Amazon or Best Buy for. 

 

I work in an industry that is horrible for the environment, but can make changes elsewhere in my life I guess is my rant. I just feel bad for people who live in actual cities and tropical climates that think EVs aren't the way to go. If I could make it work, know the vehicle won't strand me in winter and be as reliable as my pickup, I would switch in a heart beat. There's just so many more stresses on vehicles northerners have to deal with. 

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

I'd wager that the vast majority of users simply don't use a USB drive to play music in their cars anymore.

 

Most people likely use a smartphone - and then they can use playlists to replicate what you'd do with folders (but more flexibility, because a song may work with more than one playlist, and there's no need to physically duplicate - and thus waste storage space - the song). Depending on the phone and music player, you can sometimes even just browse by genre.

Using smartphone is the dumbest thing ever. Then you need to duplicate everything on the phone and always have it with you and some cars don't support wireless which means you need to plug in the damn thing and then it'll charge and I don't want it to charge and if it has wireless you're discharging phone. Also I don't have stuff duplicated. If I want to listen to game soundtracks I sure as hell don't want to listen 80's hits at that moment. Folders are playlists. And to add music I just dump it in folder of choice. Instead of bothering with playlists or being forced to have all the song tags filled otherwise it'll be like retarded pikachu. No thanks. I don't like ANY of that. Maintaining music libraries on phones, be it Android or iPhone is just so clumsy and time consuming I never bothered. I basically have few songs on and that's it. I basically never listen to them. USB drive in car, I can't imagine listening to FM radio. Haven't done so for basically 15+ years...

[Donut417]

8 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Storm damage happens to gas pumps too.  You’re reaching.

The difference is you can drive to an area with a working gas pump. If your electric car is near empty and you have no electricity at your home, then you are FUCKED. Because like I said, No public chargers in the area. So no Im NOT reaching. 

 

8 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

It can be treated as a power wall.

Only if you are wired correctly. You dont want the power from your car to go out to the grid and electrocute a line worker. Thats why when you install a generator you either plug items directly in to it, OR you install a sub panel that cuts off the main breaker so electricity can go back thru the grid. 

 

To many people put the cart before the horse when it comes to electric cars. 1) We need an electrical grid that is robust enough to charge these cars, as well as one that produces power cleanly or electric cars are no point, 2) we need batteries that can be charged quickly, 3) We need places to charge the cars, because what if you go on vacation? or you need to fill up on your way to some place? The biggie out of those is number one. Having a power grid that works for that purpose as well as producing the power required. 

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Donut417 said:

The difference is you can drive to an area with a working gas pump. If your electric car is near empty and you have no electricity at your home, then you are FUCKED. Because like I said, No public chargers in the area. So no Im NOT reaching. 

 

Only if you are wired correctly. You dont want the power from your car to go out to the grid and electrocute a line worker. Thats why when you install a generator you either plug items directly in to it, OR you install a sub panel that cuts off the main breaker so electricity can go back thru the grid. 

 

To many people put the cart before the horse when it comes to electric cars. 1) We need an electrical grid that is robust enough to charge these cars, as well as one that produces power cleanly or electric cars are no point, 2) we need batteries that can be charged quickly, 3) We need places to charge the cars, because what if you go on vacation? or you need to fill up on your way to some place? The biggie out of those is number one. Having a power grid that works for that purpose as well as producing the power required. 

Rolling blackouts and wild storms isn’t reaching  huh?  The average person drives about 20miles per day. Explain why a car with 300 mile range would be empty.  Oh.  Because they didn’t plug it in.  Like you can’t with a gas car.  The way you can do at home with a rolling blackout.  Rolling means there’s power some of the time.  An electric car just gives you a place to store spare power.   If your car is empty of gas that filling station is just as far away. 

[Donut417]

4 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

If your car is empty of gas that filling station is just as far away. 

Except it aint. There are 2 gas stations with in 2 miles of my house, I have 2 legs and can walk with a gas can. Also you dont have to fill up with gas EVERY DAY. An electric car you kinda need to fill up every day to be sure you have enough in case of emergency. I never let my gas tank get below 3/4 in case of a storm or something taking out power. 

 

4 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

wild storms isn’t reaching

Actually we had a storm yesterday that took out power in some areas and its still out in those areas. came across 2 red lights that didn't work due to power issues. This happens probably about every major storm. That not to mention the ice storms we get in the Winter, we had them take out power as well, the entire city was out for like 4 days, 2 years ago. 

 

But you keep skipping over the important part. The infrastructure, we dont have one that can do this. If we dont upgrade transmission and power production we will be up shit creek eventually. If the utility is having a hard time with demand in the summer with all the air conditioners running, what makes you feel they will be able to handle everyone charging their cars? Where are we going to get the extra power? Coal? Because Solar and Wind are not true replacements. Nuclear is shunned by most of the world. Hydroelectric destroys the ecosystems and has potential for disaster when a dam fails. Natural Gas is cleaner than coal but still a fossil fuel. Wind is great if well you have Wind, but windmills are large and in some areas they wont work. Who knows if Fusion reactors will ever gain traction, every thing I have seen about them suggests we might be many decades out from a commercial reactor. 

 

So until we have a decent way to produce more power (Cleanly) and have better ways to transmit power, I think we are still very many decades before the internal combustion engine is 100% replaced. By that time, autonomous cars are likely to be the only way forward. 

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

Except it aint. There are 2 gas stations with in 2 miles of my house, I have 2 legs and can walk with a gas can. Also you dont have to fill up with gas EVERY DAY. An electric car you kinda need to fill up every day to be sure you have enough in case of emergency. I never let my gas tank get below 3/4 in case of a storm or something taking out power. 

 

Actually we had a storm yesterday that took out power in some areas and its still out in those areas. came across 2 red lights that didn't work due to power issues. This happens probably about every major storm. That not to mention the ice storms we get in the Winter, we had them take out power as well, the entire city was out for like 4 days, 2 years ago. 

 

But you keep skipping over the important part. The infrastructure, we dont have one that can do this. If we dont upgrade transmission and power production we will be up shit creek eventually. If the utility is having a hard time with demand in the summer with all the air conditioners running, what makes you feel they will be able to handle everyone charging their cars? Where are we going to get the extra power? Coal? Because Solar and Wind are not true replacements. Nuclear is shunned by most of the world. Hydroelectric destroys the ecosystems and has potential for disaster when a dam fails. Natural Gas is cleaner than coal but still a fossil fuel. Wind is great if well you have Wind, but windmills are large and in some areas they wont work. Who knows if Fusion reactors will ever gain traction, every thing I have seen about them suggests we might be many decades out from a commercial reactor. 

 

So until we have a decent way to produce more power (Cleanly) and have better ways to transmit power, I think we are still very many decades before the internal combustion engine is 100% replaced. By that time, autonomous cars are likely to be the only way forward. 

Re: the important part:

I didn’t skip over it because it was never even discussed.   Power generation is a thing.  It’s generally a very periodic one.  Like sewer systems being able to judge when there is a commercial break in the super bowl because everyone flushes their toilets and sewer water levels perceptibly increase.  There is “peak” and “off peak” power pricing.  The difference is so great that back in the early 80’s they built an artificial lake on top of a mountain in Massachusetts.  It had electric water pumps that pumped water during “off peak” and generated electricity during “peak” the difference was so high that even with massive build costs and inefficiencies and evaporation loss the thing ran at a profit. Name had something to do with bears I think.  I visited it when I was a kid.  They’d painted the inside light blue for some reason. There should be a power use graph for your area somewhere.  It will look like a sine wave.  Air conditioner use is “peak” pricing.  People will charge their cars overnight.  Off peak, because why pay more money? All electric cars would mostly do is even out power usage.  There might be some more total capacity needed. I just watched a “real engineering” episode talking about this problem.  Most of the worry appears not to be going into power generation, but into power storage. 

[PlayStation 2]

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Using smartphone is the dumbest thing ever. Then you need to duplicate everything on the phone and always have it with you and some cars don't support wireless which means you need to plug in the damn thing and then it'll charge and I don't want it to charge and if it has wireless you're discharging phone. Also I don't have stuff duplicated. If I want to listen to game soundtracks I sure as hell don't want to listen 80's hits at that moment. Folders are playlists. And to add music I just dump it in folder of choice. Instead of bothering with playlists or being forced to have all the song tags filled otherwise it'll be like retarded pikachu. No thanks. I don't like ANY of that. Maintaining music libraries on phones, be it Android or iPhone is just so clumsy and time consuming I never bothered. I basically have few songs on and that's it. I basically never listen to them. USB drive in car, I can't imagine listening to FM radio. Haven't done so for basically 15+ years...

A lot of people stream music - or even have music saved onto their phone. It's a useful one-stop device to play music... damn near wherever, frankly. That's a primary purpose of my phone: to play music from Spotify in my car. It's the main reason I have an unlimited plan. And with things like Apple CarPlay becoming more and more common, it's becoming more and more convenient to go that route. Most people don't mind that it can be a little annoying to organize music libraries on a phone.