Microsoft finally has a package manager for Windows, meet winget.

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

It doesn't really sound like a package manager though because it sounds like it won't be able to do things like install and track dependancies either.

I feel like that's more of a consequence of how Windows works in general. "Packages" will just have to be standalone installers as they have been up until now.

[AlTech]

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

That sounds great! But wasn't this the point of NuGet and Chocolatey? Seems like they are reinventing the wheel, but hopefully it will work out. 

Nuget? No

Chocolatey? Yes.

 

Nuget is exclusively for developers and it distributes libraries and frameworks, not applications.

 

This is reinventing the wheel as far as Chocolatey is confirmed.

[AlTech]

What I'm concerned by and confused by is why Microsoft is trying to turn Windows into Linux slowly bit by bit.

 

Still a proprietary OS mind you but slowly being turned into Linux.

[FirehawkV21]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

What I'm concerned by and confused by is why Microsoft is trying to turn Windows into Linux slowly bit by bit.

In all honesty, I wouldn't mind bringing some of the Linux features to Windows. winget would make it pretty easy to reinstall some of the apps I use (Visual Studio, .NET Core SDK, etc.). Maybe, at some point, we could see some stuff offloaded from Windows Update to winget (if the package manager matures enough.

 

There are some features I'd like to see from Linux added as well (for example, faster updates. Possibly with a compression like Brotli or Zstandard. Maybe when they start poring bits from 10X, we may see that), but as long as they don't go overboard, I wouldn't mind that.

[GoodBytes]

4 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

welp that became useless pretty fast

Dude. It is in early development. You don't have access to it. You'll need to wait, at the very least, for end of next year with the following version of Windows 10, after this coming one. at the end of month.

[AlTech]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Dude. It is in early development. You don't have access to it. You'll need to wait, at the very least, for end of next year with the following version of Windows 10, after this coming one. at the end of month.

It does feel odd that they'd release the feature to install apps but not a feature to remove apps. Makes me think this release was hastily thought out or planned.

[FirehawkV21]

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

It does feel odd that they'd release the feature to install apps but not a feature to remove apps. Makes me think this release was hastily thought out or planned.

It could possibly be a prototype. Windows Terminal was barebones for a while until the later betas. It could give them feeback to see how well winget works. Stuff like:

 

• Does the flow go well? Can users install easilly any package they want?
• Does it work well?
• Can the tool read the manifests?

So on and so forth.

[suicidalfranco]

6 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Dude. It is in early development. You don't have access to it. You'll need to wait, at the very least, for end of next year with the following version of Windows 10, after this coming one. at the end of month.

Dude, it's a tried and true concept. If you can't even deliver it with basic features like uninstall (wild concept, i know) what are they even doing?

It's akin to epic games making a store and not having a cart in it for some reason

[AlexGoesHigh]

14 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Dude. It is in early development. You don't have access to it. You'll need to wait, at the very least, for end of next year with the following version of Windows 10, after this coming one. at the end of month.

Well they have a release on the github page, you can try it, I used it to install rufus yesterday and it did so successfully.

 

 Here is a screenshot listing of me listing all packages with Microsoft references.

 

EDIT: i'm a derp... you were referring to the part about uninstalling...

[AlTech]

15 hours ago, elfensky said:

I wonder how that'll affect Chocolatey and the others. I imagine most developers will be glad to have an officially supported package manager and will get on board quick, but I fast and good the support for more esoteric things will be.

Chocolatey is safe for now in that Chocolatey has things Microsoft likely won't offer and that is business and enterprise support.

 

Chocolatey has both consumer customers and corporate customers. I don't expect Microsoft to release a paid version of Winget anytime soon.

[GoodBytes]

11 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

Dude, it's a tried and true concept. If you can't even deliver it with basic features like uninstall (wild concept, i know) what are they even doing?

It's akin to epic games making a store and not having a cart in it for some reason

Next time you build something, I'll be there next to you saying: "What lumber for a deck?.. Pff.. Where can I put the BBQ? Table? Let alone walk on it! Desks are is a tried and true concept! HAHAHA! where is the nails or screws? You forgot to get them? What, you just came to put in teh lumber from your truck and teh nails and screws are in the truck and about to get them? You know what? What do you even try? What the heck!"

[suicidalfranco]

9 minutes ago, AlexGoesHigh said:

Well they have a release on the github page, you can try it, I used it to install rufus yesterday and it did so successfully.

 

 Here is a screenshot listing of me listing all packages with Microsoft references.

 

EDIT: i'm a derp... you were referring to the part about uninstalling...

specifically uninstalling and what @LAwLz brought to my attention:

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

It doesn't really sound like a package manager though because it sounds like it won't be able to do things like install and track dependancies either

 

[suicidalfranco]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Next time you build something, I'll be there next to you saying: "What lumber for a deck?.. Pff.. Where can I put the BBQ? Table? Let alone walk on it! Desks are is a tried and true concept! HAHAHA! where is the nails or screws? You forgot to get them? What, you just came to put in teh lumber from your truck and teh nails and screws are in the truck and about to get them? You know what? What do you even try? What the heck!"

and as always falling down to this sort of straw man replies. Won't even bother this time.

[GoodBytes]

6 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

and as always falling down to this sort of straw man replies. Won't even bother this time.

Once again, you have no idea what in development software is. Once version 1.0 is out, then you can complain.

Looking at their roadmap:

https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/blob/master/doc/windows-package-manager-v1-roadmap.md

May 2021

[aom]

1 hour ago, suicidalfranco said:

Dude, it's a tried and true concept. If you can't even deliver it with basic features like uninstall (wild concept, i know) what are they even doing?

It's akin to epic games making a store and not having a cart in it for some reason

Alpha actually means something in software development. I'll bet money on them having uninstall by May 2021 which is their expected timeline for it. 

 

Like making a game store, making a package manager has all sorts of development pitfalls and considerations. You underestimate how much development is required to do even the most simple things because their implementation has been abstracted away from you.

 

In the case of Epic, it could have very well been that they were planning for a firm release date, probably had the cart code for it all done, but didn't have time to complete all the testing required in time for it. And these were developers working 80-100 hour work weeks. Development takes time and corporate deadlines exist. Regardless of the actual reason, this is not analogous to the package manager which doesn't even have a release yet

[Doobeedoo]

This actually could be neat once it's more complete version. To script install many programs and needed dependencies easily is awesome. 

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

What I'm concerned by and confused by is why Microsoft is trying to turn Windows into Linux slowly bit by bit.

 

Still a proprietary OS mind you but slowly being turned into Linux.

Because there are plenty of things which are drastically superior on GNU/Linux OSes compared to Windows, so why not try and take those same ideas and implement them in Windows?

 

 

18 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

This actually could be neat once it's more complete version. To script install many programs and needed dependencies easily is awesome. 

Right now I have a Google docs text file with the name and links to all the common programs I usually want to install on a new Windows installation.

It would be great to be able to get rid of that document and just have one that doesn't have any links. Just a script that fetches and installs everything.

I bet sites like Ninite could be made obsolete if this works out well.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Once again, you have no idea what in development software is. Once version 1.0 is out, then you can complain.

Looking at their roadmap:

https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/blob/master/doc/windows-package-manager-v1-roadmap.md

May 2021

Great site to look at for those interested in this. The current version is very bare bones but it looks like their goals is to have it be really good.

Here is the list of things they want to implement before version 1.0 comes out (in a year)

 

Spoiler

Feature - Description/Notes

 

• Microsoft Store - Support for installing Apps from the Microsoft Store
• REST Repository - Support for a REST based repository
• --list - The client should be able to tell you what Apps are installed
• --update - The client should be able to update one or "all" installed Apps
• --uninstall - The client should be able to uninstall Apps
• Multiple Installers - The client should be able to choose between multiple different installers from the same manifest
• Multiple Languages - The client will support installation for almost every language for which there is a fixed-width font including East Asian languages. Bonus points for RTL languages/scripts.
• Multiple Architectures - The client should support multiple architectures in the same manifest
• Non-Zero Exit Codes - The client should support applications with non-zero exit codes as success
• Install .zip - The client should be able to install programs in a .zip file
• Configurability & Customization - The client will have a modern, flexible settings mechanism that persists settings to/from a JSON file stored in the user's app data folders, and/or in files synchronized between machines via OneDrive, etc.
• Accessibility (A11y) - The client will be highly accessible and inclusive. It will expose its contents via UIA to support tools such as Windows Narrator, and UI automation tools including WinAppDriver
• Color Theming & Styling - The client will honor the user's Windows dark/light theme settings, and/or color accent settings.
• Autocomplete - The client will support autocomplete for all commands and packages in the local cache
• Release Channels - Some applications have different release channels and we should support them
• User vs. System - Applications may be installed for the local user or for the system
• Metered Networks - The client should download responsibly when on metered networks
• Delivery Optimization - Delivery Optimization should be leveraged for large Apps
• Elevated Privileges - The client should support installing Apps that require elevated privileges
• Control Panel - Support for Apps installed in the Control Panel
• Group Policy - Support for Group Policy control
• Package Snapshot - Support for exporting all installed packages as a package set
• Package Set - Support for installing a set of packages
• Manifest Wizard - --create helps a user generate a manifest
• App Config Files - Support for silent installers that require a configuration file
• UX Enhancements - Client Verbosity Settings
• Dependency Support - Some Apps depend on other Apps to be present like IDEs and Programming Languages
• Install PWA - Support installing Progressive Web Applications

So it looks like it will be very feature complete once released. It will even support tracking dependencies!

[Doobeedoo]

16 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Right now I have a Google docs text file with the name and links to all the common programs I usually want to install on a new Windows installation.

It would be great to be able to get rid of that document and just have one that doesn't have any links. Just a script that fetches and installs everything.

I bet sites like Ninite could be made obsolete if this works out well.

Yeah exactly. 

[AlexGoesHigh]

Update 1: The developer of the tweeten app made a web front end for it called wininstall.app, so you can browse the repository and create a batch script without having to type anything in a console, just copy and paste.

[LAwLz]

Apparently Microsoft "stole" this from an open source developer. They contacted him a while ago. Wanted him to work for them etc, then had complete radio silence for months until the day before winget was announced going "hey we are going to release a competitor to you tomorrow".

Gonna look more into this and elaborate later.

 

Edit:

From what I have gathered, this is the timeline.

1) A Canadian developer named Keivan Beigi developed a package manager for Windows called AppGet. Please remember that AppGet is the indie package manager.

2) In July 2019, A high level manager at Microsoft called Andrew emails Keivan, in which Microsoft invites Keivan to a meeting regarding AppGet.

3) Keivan (indie dev) and Andrew (Microsoft) mailed back and forth a few times over a couple of months, and then in August they had a face to face meeting. They talked about the current package manager systems in Windows, where AppGet was heading and so on. Microsoft seemed very interested in helping Keivan with further development of AppGet. Keivan mentioned that he could use some Azure credits hosting, among other things.

4) The week after Andrew from Microsoft sent another email saying that Microsoft were interested in employing Keivan so that he becomes a part of Microsoft and can work on package managers for Windows full time.

5) After a few more emails back and forth they came to the agreement that Microsoft would hire Keivan and he would keep working on AppGet, although AppGet could be renamed if Microsoft wanted to.

6) There were lots of question marks still hanging, such as what Keivan's actual role would be, who would be his manager, would he have his own team? Stuff like that. He kept sending emails to Microsoft about this but didn't really get any answers.

7) Keivan was informed that getting hired through BizDev would take a long time so they were going to do it some other way.

8 ) Keivan flew to Microsoft's HQ in Seattle and talked to several people about stuff like how to migrate AppGet to Microsoft's infrastructure, possible scaling issues etc. Keivan thought the meeting went well and he flew back home.

9) Keivan didn't hear anything from Microsoft for the next 6 months. No replies to emails, nothing.

10) 6 months after the meeting, one day before WinGet (Microsoft's package manager) goes live, Keivan gets another email from Microsoft. In the email, Microsoft they say things didn't work out but that they appreciated the meetings and conversations they had together, and though Keivan's insight and input were appreciated. They also wrote that they would launch their own package manager tomorrow and that they would give AppGet a shout-out in a blog post.

11) WinGet goes lives and it is obvious that WinGet is very heavily inspired by AppGet in many, many ways.

 

With all that being said, Keivan himself isn't all that upset about it.

He isn't that upset about Microsoft not hiring him. He was a bit uncertain about being employed by Microsoft. He wasn't sure if he would fit in, and wasn't too happy about having to move from Canada to the US.

He isn't upset that Windows finally has a package manager either. That was the reason why he developed AppGet to begin with.

He isn't upset about Microsoft copying his program either. He says that if he wanted exclusivity to how AppGet works then he would have patented it, but he didn't and he don't regret doing it.

The thing Keivan is bothered by is the poor communication from Microsoft. Slow to reply to emails from time to time, complete silence for the last 6 months, and then during the announcement where AppGet was suppose to get a shout-out it was just mentioned as another package manager that existed, rather than being highlighted as where Microsoft actually got a lot of their ideas from and based WinGet on.

 

 

Since this came to light, Andrew from Microsoft has made a public blog post where gives more credit to Keivan and AppGet.

That blog post can be found here.

Microsoft doesn't apologize for their behavior and the entire thing feels very "corporate" if you get what I mean. Kinda like it was looked over by lawyers and removed and admission of guilt or wrongdoing on Microsoft's part, as well as a quite mocking remark about how, since Microsoft will open source WinGet, Keivan can contribute to it if he wants.

 

 

This is just straight up shitty behavior from Microsoft and just adds more fuel to the fire that Microsoft isn't really friendly to the Open Source community.

If they want to shed their image as an evil company (an image they have rightfully deserved through terrible actions in the past), they can't let things like this happen.

 

Sources:

Microsoft's own blog post I linked earlier, and a wide variety of other articles such as:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-credits-maker-of-package-manager-it-copied-for-windows-10-but-offers-no-apology/

https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/2/21277863/microsoft-winget-windows-package-manager-appget-response-credit-comment

https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353

https://keivan.io/the-day-appget-died/

 

 

According to Keivan, he and Andrew from Microsoft are currently talking to each other and wil hopefully have something to share with the public in the near future.

[mr moose]

On 5/22/2020 at 12:53 AM, LAwLz said:

Because there are plenty of things which are drastically superior on GNU/Linux OSes compared to Windows, so why not try and take those same ideas and implement them in Windows?

 

And this isn't the 80's anymore,  a decent enough portion of windows users are not just office/accountant end users.   I mean, even 10 years ago how many people had their PC's connected to something more complicated than a vinyl cutter or CNC mill?  nowadays they are plugged into everything from custom home automation to DIY 3d printers, multisensor measurement, laser cutters etc.  Many of those users are writing their own code and sharing it in huge thingy-type-verse-type-things which benefit from a more Linux like approach.

 

 

[GoodBytes]

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

-snip-

In my experience, one should never, ever, share any knowledge before being hired.

I believe I was victim of a company who too potentially took my solution from an interview. Now, I have no proof of this, as another person might have shared the same information like me. (In my book, it was pretty obvious to me, but I guess not them... not initially at least). And I am sure if I raise it, they'll say something like "Oh no, that was a different project worked on way before I was interviews..." Even though in the news articles it suggests that they just got started.

 

I am sure that this manager who I have done the interview with got a nice promotion for "his" findings and new direction for the project.

 

Keivan mistake was he tried to impress... but all he has done is share knowledge for free. His mistake was to not stop and say, "here are my fees" or asked to be hired. That said, his project was open source. When you open source things, not only your code is free to use, but also your ideas as well.

 

If it was the old MS, probably they won't bother given any credit to any of this and just claim it was all their own and ready to fight in court.

It is obviously, really shitty for the manager at Microsoft to do this. But you will always have shit people like this and who will do anything to take full credit for someone else work. These people can be even be at your place.

 

Anyway, life lesson to all.

[Guest willies leg]

I thought Apple was the only company that sherlocked other's work.

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/297651/what-does-it-mean-when-a-company-sherlocks-an-app/

 

 

[FirehawkV21]

On 6/5/2020 at 5:55 PM, gabrielcarvfer said:

Didn't they steal MAUI name from another open-source project? They don't give shit to open-source devs, just like Amazon/AWS...

They own Xamarin. They are merging all of their frameworks into one, so...