4900HSlow - 4900HS laptop has a new competitor

[Crunchy Dragon]

Does it count as competition if both CPUs are from AMD and target different consumers?

[rcmaehl]

7 hours ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Does it count as competition if both CPUs are from AMD and target different consumers?

[trag1c]

On 4/1/2020 at 7:43 AM, suicidalfranco said:

more of a personal curiosity:

Is there a strong demand for this category of laptops Or is it just a niche line?

Cause from how i see it, you want desktop replacement that is as powerful as a desktop, but you'll barely carry it around due to the sheer size and weight of the thing, and if you do you'll have to think twice cause the battery will last as much as a UPS powering a an actual deskto PC. So in that sense wouldn't an AIO make more sense?

something like these:

I used and carried an Alienware 17 everyday during high school (bought it in 2012) . That was more or less as chunky as it got because the entire chassis was a cast alloy of some sort. I did a lot of robotics competitions in high school where having high power GPU acceleration for computer vision programming was necessary and having a strong CPU for compiling code was necessary as well. I did that for 2 years no problem. These big laptops are more than manageable to do everyday carry if you have the use case for them. If you're just taking notes then you're a complete idiot for carry it but if you have to do anything computationally intensive its well worth the bad back. Sometimes you simply don't have a choice. 

[toasty99]

I think it's cool that we are getting laptops (ok portable bricks) with such powerful processors but it's also a bit weird when they "only" have a RTX 2070 or 2080 at best. Someone needs to stick a RTX 2080ti into a laptop. 

 

It's also a hard sell to buy laptops when you can't upgrade the GPU. Whoever decides first that they are going to commit to selling laptops with upgradable GPUs and ensure support continues will sell a ton. 

 

Also, no one mention MXM. The cards were hard to get with no retail availability and often compatibility was a pain. 

[XMG Support]

 

35 minutes ago, trag1c said:

I used and carried an Alienware 17 everyday during high school (bought it in 2012) . That was more or less as chunky as it got because the entire chassis was a cast alloy of some sort. I did a lot of robotics competitions in high school where having high power GPU acceleration for computer vision programming was necessary and having a strong CPU for compiling code was necessary as well. I did that for 2 years no problem. These big laptops are more than manageable to do everyday carry if you have the use case for them. If you're just taking notes then you're a complete idiot for carry it but if you have to do anything computationally intensive its well worth the bad back. Sometimes you simply don't have a choice. 

This guy computes!

 

12 hours ago, WereCatf said:

Oh, hey! I have a very crucial question about the XMG-laptops of yours: who do I have to sleep with and how many times to get a free one?

A/S/L?

 

11 hours ago, jtmoseley said:

With a whopping 20 minutes of battery life

It can be up to 2 hours in Idle. Some of that is taken by the dedicated NVIDIA GPU because Ryzen on AM4 does not have an iGPU.

 

11 hours ago, Fasauceome said:

Important questions:

A) is it socketed

B) is it supported for future updates

A) Yes

B) We plan to support future updates and we've been told by AMD that the AM4 socket and B450 chipset will still be viable with Desktop Renoir.

For more information, please check our FAQ on Reddit.
 

Cheers,

Tom

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, XMG Support said:

A/S/L?

I'm not all that impressed with the laptop, but I do approve of the sense of humour. You get a +1 from me.

[trag1c]

3 minutes ago, XMG Support said:

  This guy computes!

Lol. Do you ship to North America by chance? This is the first time in a quite a few years that I am actually drooling over a laptop lol.

[genexis_x]

15 minutes ago, toasty99 said:

Someone needs to stick a RTX 2080ti into a laptop

You need tons of copper and room

 

MXM cards are expensive. Most laptops have non upgradeable GPU anyway.

[justpoet]

18 hours ago, XMG Support said:

LCD: the NH series is available with 3 different panel specs: 60Hz with either 45% or 72% NTSC Gamut and the 144Hz top spec, likewise with 72% NTSC. We are committed to build all XMG APEX 15 with the best available LCD panel.

Why are you using NTSC for color space coverage?  Nothing uses that anymore.

What is the sRGB, Adobe RGB, and DCI color space coverage?

18 hours ago, XMG Support said:

RAM: AMD Ryzen can go up to 3200MHz, but the modules need to be able to support this spec natively. The NH series does not support XMP memory profiles. In our FAQ we will keep a list of memory modules that are guaranteed to give you the 3200MHz memory speed. For price-sensitive buyers, we also offer a 2666MHz budget option. According to our tests, the performance gap between is about 5% on Ryzen 5 3600 but only 2% on Ryzen 9 3900.

I see 3200 as optimal Ryzen stated a lot, but it has been shown many times that the sweet spot for performance gains with Ryzen 3000 is low latency DDR 3600, unlike Ryzen 2000 series which was DDR 3200.

[toasty99]

7 minutes ago, genexis_x said:

You need tons of copper and room

 

MXM cards are expensive. Most laptops have non upgradeable GPU anyway.

MXM is obselete anyways. My point is someone needs to take that idea and actively support it at an affordable price. 

 

It would really improve the longetivity of laptops if 2-3 years in you could just replace the GPU. The GPU tends to be the bottleneck in games long before the CPU. 

[genexis_x]

1 hour ago, justpoet said:

Why are you using NTSC for color space coverage?  Nothing uses that anymore.

This is the common colour space coverage used in laptops. And sRGB.

1 hour ago, justpoet said:

What is the sRGB, Adobe RGB, and DCI color space coverage?

Google is your friend.

1 hour ago, justpoet said:

but it has been shown many times that the sweet spot for performance gains with Ryzen 3000 is low latency DDR 3600

There's no 3600MHz SODIMM RAM yet from what I know (there is 3733MHz soldered RAM used in Ice Lake systems). Most SODIMM RAM will be using standard timings (eg 2666MHz CL19), forget about low latency. Remember that we're talking about laptops here.

[XMG Support]

1 hour ago, justpoet said:

Why are you using NTSC for color space coverage?  Nothing uses that anymore.

LCD Panel vendors are doing that. 99% of all panels are specced by their vendors at either NTSC 45%, 72% or 95% gamut. Probably to make sure nobody can hold them accountable. The later 1% are either extremely high-end desktop panels or any vendor that actually aims for >100% sRGB. In laptop space this is very rare (mostly exclusive to Apple and HP) and has only this year seen more widespread usage.

 

1 hour ago, justpoet said:

What is the sRGB, Adobe RGB, and DCI color space coverage?

Based on our internal statistics, 72% NTSC can be anything between 80% and 98% sRGB. In the cases of our high-end laptops, it's usually around 91%.

95% NTSC is usually already well over 100% sRGB and very often borders the 100% AdobeRGB space.

 

The sRGB Coverage of XMG APEX 15 will also be around that 91% mark. We'll publish the final number once we have measured a certain number of units from the first mass production batch.

 

1 hour ago, justpoet said:

I see 3200 as optimal Ryzen stated a lot, but it has been shown many times that the sweet spot for performance gains with Ryzen 3000 is low latency DDR 3600, unlike Ryzen 2000 series which was DDR 3200.

We'll take your feedback back to our ODM. I know that we will have a lot of tuning options for DDR4 in the BIOS for individual users to play around with. Based on experience, the ODM does not like to throw a lot of R&D resources at RAM fine-tuning and stability tests once mass production has started. When they validate, they are checking a huge number of modules and machines in parallel to see if the tweaked values have any significant impact on statistical stability over a large scale of time and units. For content: if RMA rate (sudden crashes at random intervals or other weird behaviour) increases by a mere 1% based on more agressive RAM timings, that's already a No-Go for the ODM.

 

The ODM already has received a huge number of pre-orders on this model based on the DDR4-3200 JEDEC spec, so I wouldn't hold my breath for any official XMP support.

 

This is the first AMD-based laptop from this ODM in over a decade - it's pretty much whole new ground and things will be learnt as they go along. The ODM is keen on providing a safe and reliable experience - they don't want this to blow up with RMAs and support tickets because every hacker and their mother (including the huge domestic market in China) is suddenly trying to squeeze out the last percentile with ever more "optimized" RAM specs. There is a short list of approved RAM modules (listed in our FAQ) and those are what we're going to run with for the next couple of months. Maybe when AMD starts supporting the Ryzen 4000 series on the same socket and chipset, the ODM might become inclined to go a couple of steps further. Until then, vendors will have released a few new modules and the supply will have stabilized. The same logic applies to the new DDR4-2933 tier that Intel has launched yesterday with Comet Lake H.

 

Cheers,

Tom

[GoldenLag]

2 hours ago, justpoet said:

but it has been shown many times that the sweet spot for performance gains with Ryzen 3000 is low latency DDR 3600

actually its not. 

 

its custom minor and major timings with as high frequency as your chip can handle. the 3600mhs "sweetspot" is AMD marketing and it happens to be the lower limit of what the IF on most chips can handle. 

 

2 hours ago, justpoet said:

unlike Ryzen 2000 series which was DDR 3200.

actually that is also wrong. "Sweetspot" on Ryzen 2000 was custom timings at whatever the IF can handle, which was around 3333mhz to about 3466mhz. 

 

 

and cost wise these are also not really sweetspots as AMD claimed, even in with the pricing the market offered back then. 

[williamcll]

Since nobody mentioned, here are the store links:

EU: https://bestware.com/en/xmg-apex-15.html

CN: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=614230229010

@XMG SupportWhen will it be available on NA and what would the price be? Will you do Threadrippers as well? Have you given a sample to Linus?

 

 

Also a review on Bilibili: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Lt4y1U7FW

To sum, 80C 75W on CPU+GPU synthetic tests at 20C room temperature, Cinebench R20 7700, R15 3450, performance beats the i9-7980XE

[cj09beira]

1 hour ago, GoldenLag said:

actually its not. 

 

its custom minor and major timings with as high frequency as your chip can handle. the 3600mhs "sweetspot" is AMD marketing and it happens to be the lower limit of what the IF on most chips can handle. 

 

actually that is also wrong. "Sweetspot" on Ryzen 2000 was custom timings at whatever the IF can handle, which was around 3333mhz to about 3466mhz. 

 

 

and cost wise these are also not really sweetspots as AMD claimed, even in with the pricing the market offered back then. 

your definition of sweet spot is much more aggressive than his 

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, cj09beira said:

your definition of sweet spot is much more aggressive than his 

well isnt then the point that "sweet spot" is a very vague term. and varies on what you are targeting. 

 

that way on mobile the "sweetspot" is not the same as 3600mhz, which was what AMD put as the sweetspot

[XMG Support]

4 hours ago, williamcll said:

When will it be available on NA and what would the price be? Will you do Threadrippers as well? Have you given a sample to Linus?

We don't have firm info on availability in NA yet. I would assume it's going to pop up in one of the major brands in the next 1-2 months.

No plans for Threadrippers right now, since those have a different socket and a TDP of up to 280W. With this kind of CPU TDP it's difficult to cram a dGPU in there, reducing the mass appeal of such a system. I'm sure that many users would love a Threadripper laptop with maybe a 50W GPU (think GTX 1650), coupled with one of the already existing 330W external power supplies. But would this sell enough in the mainstream gaming and creative professional market to warrant the investment?

 

Or...: how much would you be willing to reduce the CPU TDP while still maintaining good clock speeds? Where is the "Max-Q" sweet spot of 3990X? (honest question)

 

4 hours ago, williamcll said:

Have you given a sample to Linus?

No, we haven't been in contact with LTT since CES and the numbers of samples are currently limited. Our first review sample is en-route to another YouTuber. More samples to be shipped in about 3 weeks.

 

4 hours ago, williamcll said:

Also a review on Bilibili: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Lt4y1U7FW

Nice find, thank you!

 

Meanwhile, since our review is still gonna take a while, we decided to collate some more numbers for you guys:

 

 

Cheers,

Tom

[Belac F]

CPU - 16 cores

GPU - RTX 2060

RAM - 64 gigs

Display - 144hz

 

 

Battery - 15 min

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Belac F said:

CPU - 16 cores

GPU - RTX 2060

RAM - 64 gigs

Display - 144hz

 

 

Battery - 15 min

 

Unlimited power!

 

Spoiler

Powerful laptops are mostly stupid though

 

[XMG Support]

23 hours ago, Belac F said:

CPU - 16 cores

GPU - RTX 2060

RAM - 64 gigs

Display - 144hz

 

 

Battery - 15 min

Current estimates are between 1.5 and 2 hours of battery life in low load scenarios. We'll see if we can optimize this further.

 

// Tom

[TechyBen]

5 hours ago, XMG Support said:

Current estimates are between 1.5 and 2 hours of battery life in low load scenarios. We'll see if we can optimize this further.

 

// Tom

So about the same as I use to get on my Intel Prescot. XD

[XMG Support]

+++ Newsticker on XMG APEX 15 +++

 

Pricing

 

Today we have done a massive, permanent price drop on two CPU Upgrade Prices:

• AMD Ryzen 9 3950X: down by 127€
• AMD Ryzen 9 3900: down by 227€ (!)

These price drops are thanks to your support. We have collected enough pre-orders on XMG APEX 15 that we were able to

negotiate new CPU purchasing prices with AMD. We are forwarding those benefits directly to you. All previous pre-orders (with 3900 and 3950X) will automatically get their price reduced and will get an information about e-mail.

 

Shipping Schedule

 

We are on track to ship out the first couple of pre-orders around April 27.

 

ANSI Keyboard Poll

 

We have opened a poll about US Keyboards with ANSI Layout. If you're in the market for ANSI, please read and vote here. Poll will be open for 7 days only.

 

// Tom

[williamcll]

Here's debauer's review with overclocking.

 

[leadeater]

17 hours ago, XMG Support said:

These price drops are thanks to your support. We have collected enough pre-orders on XMG APEX 15 that we were able to

negotiate new CPU purchasing prices with AMD. We are forwarding those benefits directly to you. All previous pre-orders (with 3900 and 3950X) will automatically get their price reduced

Nice 

[XMG Support]

Here is another update, ladies and gentlemen:

 

BIOS options

For the launch quite a lot of expert options in the BIOS were announced, with which among other things also Undervolting should be possible. A sneak peak was shown in the video of der8auer.

Unfortunately we have to admit that due to security/warranty concerns of our ODM we have not yet received approval for the release of such an expert BIOS. The now delivered BIOS is nevertheless an XMG-exclusive customization with the following, additional features:

• Improved fan tables for Quiet, Power Saving and Entertainment

• Performance profiles can be set in the BIOS (not only in Software)

• Toggle of WLAN, Bluetooth, audio/microphone and webcam is possible

• Wake on LAN optional

• Deactivation of Boot Logo optional

For the release of a more generous expert BIOS (possibly under the condition that no guarantee is given) we have to renegotiate with the ODM. It may be necessary to consider a few options or set reasonable limits. The motherboard does have mechanisms for safety shutdown in case of overload. Nevertheless, we have to avoid that users who like to experiment drive their voltage converters and other components too hard at the limit in the long run and thus give us an increased RMA rate.

We have to ask for your patience at this point. For now, we want to get production running as smoothly as possible before we start to make further optimizations. Which brings us to the next point:

 

SO-DIMM DDR4 memory and AMD Ryzen on AM4

At the beginning of serial production of XMG APEX 15 with a larger number of RAM memory modules, we unfortunately still noticed incompatibilities not yet having been detected in sample testing.

This was due to the fact that due to logistical bottlenecks we only had a very limited number of samples available before serial production started. Although our ODM has been validated diligently in large quantities, the results of this validation could apparently not be transferred 1:1 to the serial production.

Standard tests like Furmark and Prime are not affected by this, at least not in default settings. The CPU stress test Prime95 must be set to the preset "Large FFT" in order to provoke errors on the memory controller. Another alternative to Prime95 is the stress test in AIDA64, which is also a particularly high load on the memory controller. In many cases, errors only appear when there is a fluctuating, high graphics load at the same time.

For desktop PC enthusiasts all this may not be particularly groundbreaking. However, we would like to point out here that with XMG APEX 15 we have to use SO-DIMM RAM. AM4 with Ryzen 3000 series and SO-DIMM is virtually uncharted territory. Unfortunately, the best practices and RAM recommendations from the desktop DIMM cannot be transferred 1:1 to the SO-DIMM modules available on the market.

All of these statements refer to dual channel operation. In single channel operation the system tolerance seems to be higher - but in terms of the performance of the AMD Ryzen CPU, Dual Channel is clearly recommended.

 

New RAM compatibility list

After all these tests, we have now consolidated the list of compatible modules:

 

Module	Capacity	Speed	Latency	Comment
Corsair Vengeance CMSX8GX4M1A2666C18	8 GB	DDR4-2666	CL18
Kingston ValueRAM KVR26S19S8/8	8 GB	DDR4-2666	CL19
Samsung M471A1K43CB1-CTD	8 GB	DDR4-2666	CL19
Crucial CT8G4SFS832A	8 GB	DDR4-3200	CL22
Samsung M471A2K43CB1-CTD	16 GB	DDR4-2666	CL19
GoldKey GKE160SO102408-2666A	16 GB	DDR4-2666	CL19
GoldKey GKE160SO102408-3200A	16 GB	DDR4-3200	CL22	not available in EMEA
Samsung M471A2K43DB1-CWE	16 GB	DDR4-3200	CL19	validated by ODM, not tested by us yet
Samsung M471A4G43MB1	32 GB	DDR4-2666	CL19

 

The list might be extended over time. The FAQ in the Megathread will be kept up-to-date accordingly.

Especially with the 8GB modules with max. 3200MHz we haven't had any problems so far. So you can assume that other (not listed here) 8GB modules with up to 3200MHz should also work properly, although it is not guaranteed.

However, caution is advised with modules from 16GB capacity. Modules which are not on this list might run, but under certain load conditions they might cause some crashes. These include:

• Bluescreens

• Windows reboot loops

• Switching off the screen (Black Screen)

Anyone wishing to upgrade their XMG APEX 15 and exclude any instability should therefore exclusively use modules from the above list.

We will of course be glad to morally support operation with modules not listed here (higher clock rates, lower latencies), but we cannot give any guarantees.

 

Order changes for various memory options

Some of the currently open pre-order customers will receive an info mail with some changes:

• Orders with 16GB modules (2666) from Corsair Vengeance change to 16GB modules from Samsung (same price)

• Orders of 16GB modules (2666) from Kingston ValueRAM also switch to 16GB Samsung (free upgrade)

• Orders with 16GB modules (3200 CL22) from Crucial will have 4 alternatives to choose from, sorted by type and potential waiting time

The cases of advance orders in category 3 (with the module Crucial 16GB DDR4-3200) are represented numerically quite frequently. We plan to offer those customers the following option:

Option	Type	Waiting time
A	Upgrade to Samsung 16GB 3200 CL19	Still unclear, at least 2 weeks
B	Different memory brand, same specs	up to 2 weeks
C	Switch to DDR4-2666	no wait
D	Switch to 2x 8GB DDR4-3200	no wait

We are still working on the fine details and we hope to send out some e-mail to pre-order customers tomorrow.

 

Keyboard Stock and Shipping Update

There has been serious logistical bottleneck for all keyboards with non-German print for this model. We will receive an express shipment of new keyboards by the end of next week. This should hopefully resolve the waiting time for all international pre-order customers. We will receive addtional supply in middle of May, so feel free to place your pre-order now.

Meanwhile, we have already been shipping units to German pre-order customers this week (of course only with validated and properly tested memory) and the first user reviews are trickling in. Here is one from this morning in the German forum of Computerbase.

We have also shipped review samples to multiple press outlets in U.S., UK and Germany.

Thank you for your patience and understanding while we start ramping up XMG APEX 15. We are looking forward to your feedback!

// Tom