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No NVIDIA CUDA 10.2 for Macintosh or Hackintosh

Uttamattamakin
By Uttamattamakin
in Tech News
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https://gizmodo.com/apple-and-nvidia-are-over-1840015246

 

NVIDIA will not support CUDA 10.2 for Macintosh OS X.  Older un updated installations will still work but CUDA code that tries to take advantage of the latest hardware will probably not work as designed if at all.  I know most people think of CUDA and "CUDA cores" and "Tensor" cores in terms of RTX ray tracing and DLSS, Deep Learning Super Sampling, anti aliasing technology.  For people who care most about that and who own a Mac they are using Boot Camp to run Windows and run far more games.  

 

However for GPGPU computations a Unix environment is both required and more cost effective.   People who develop code for deep learning and for pure scientific research will use a personal workstation with a CUDA GPU similar to those in the GPU supercomputer, or computing cluster, available at their corporation or academic institution.  Many of those clusters are based on older tech so this may not really bite as hard as it could.  Even a low end computing cluster represents an investment of a great amount of time if not also money.  So they likely won't have RTX GPU's in them.   However any current or future super computer or computer cluster will almost certainly run Linux or a variant of UNIX.  Code written under windows can behave in unexpected ways if ran under Linux or UNIX. 

 

This is why so many coders like Macintosh.  It gives them a corporately supported, * nix based, platform.  They can use both Xcode for hard core C++ or any number of environments such as Matlab, or Mathematica.  Write up their technical documents in LaTeX then also use a fully functioning version of MS Office for their more corporate work.    No fuss, no muss, no compromises.   That's over. 

 

The people most effected by this will be those who wished to or who have written CDUA specific code under OSX which needs to take advantage of Tensor Cores or ray tracing to run efficiently.  

So people doing the most advanced research might want to cancel their pre order for a new Mac Pro or just install Linux on their Hackpro and get it over with.  

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1 hour ago, Uttamattamakin said:

o people doing the most advanced research might want to cancel their pre order for a new Mac Pro

There isn't a single researcher out there who thought they could buy a new Mac Pro and put an Nvidia GPU in it. That's not technically feasible. An Nvidia GPU will not allow any Mac to Boot except for those which shipped with one from the factory. Further there are no drivers to allow Nvidia eGPUs to work in macOS. 

 

Apple does not need CUDA because they have OpenCL and will soon have the Vega II Pro Duo, which is going to be a more capable compute card than any single Nvidia offering. 

 

Mac programs do not utilize CUDA, Mac programmers do not utilize CUDA, Macs do not have Nvidia GPUs. Anyone who is using CUDA already has a PC. 

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4 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

There isn't a single researcher out there who thought they could buy a new Mac Pro and put an Nvidia GPU in it. That's not technically feasible. An Nvidia GPU will not allow any Mac to Boot except for those which shipped with one from the factory. Further there are no drivers to allow Nvidia eGPUs to work in macOS. 

 

Apple does not need CUDA because they have OpenCL and will soon have the Vega II Pro Duo, which is going to be a more capable compute card than any single Nvidia offering. 

 

Mac programs do not utilize CUDA, Mac programmers do not utilize CUDA, Macs do not have Nvidia GPUs. Anyone who is using CUDA already has a PC. 

You say they don’t need CUDA because they have OpenCL. While it’s true it’s like saying you don’t need a car because you can technically walk anywhere you could with a car. Programmers don’t utilize cuda because they can’t. It’s not apples fault though but limiting the customer is never a good idea 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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1 minute ago, BuckGup said:

While it’s true it’s like saying you don’t need a car because you can technically walk anywhere you could with a car.

It’s incredibly unfair to compare the differences between OpenCl and CUDA to be the difference between walking and driving. 
 

The fact remains that Apple has gotten this far without the use of CUDA because Apple has better implementations of existing and their own proprietary technologies. The fact of the matter is that Nvidia won’t play ball with Apple, so Nvidia doesn’t get to do business with them. 

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What is interesting here is with the latest macOS 10.15 nvidia could release a UserSpace Cuda driver (without needing any extra kernel level reviews from apple) the driver would not be able to be used for regular display but for CUDA compute the user space driver api is there and Nvidia could release such a driver at any time if they feel there is a market for Cuda on the mac.

Apple explicitly listed accelerator cards as being the main upsides of user-space drivers.

 

they have a load of benefits over normal kernel space drivers:

* if the driver has a bug (inf loop or crash) it does not lock up the Kernel

* the driver still operations under the same memory limitations as normal programs so cant just read other applications memory (kernel space drivers can since they run within the kernel)
* it runs as a user prosses so can be killed at any time, (without crashing the system) also you can have more than one instance running.

* much much simpler to debug as a developer
* does not require extra code review from apple, normal code signing by the devs account is enough to install (kernal space drivers do since they can bypass any security within the system)
* can use mutliple cpu cores etc, and unlike kernal space drivers since it runs in its own prosses you dont risk locking up the system if you take a little longer doing a task.

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I think overall this will make very little difference to the wider computing space. The number of existing Mac users who have recent nvidia GPUs is... I'm guessing, not significant. Hackintosh is basically irrelevant.

 

The question of choice isn't really much of one. If you are in the Apple ecosystem, you know you don't have the flexibility other platforms allow. It's Apple's way, or no way.

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4 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Does Apple even matter in the HPC market?

Not sure how to process this question. I'm not familiar with their entire product stack. Do they do anything beyond desktop/workstation level? Servers? They again, if it is not their focus, they don't have to be in HPC.

 

I used to be in frequent contact with someone who then worked at a UK university with their own supercomputer. His daily driver was a Mac, but the code he writes for the supercomputer essentially has nothing to do with code written for the Mac (as opposed to on a Mac).

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3 minutes ago, porina said:

Not sure how to process this question. I'm not familiar with their entire product stack. Do they do anything beyond desktop/workstation level? Servers? They again, if it is not their focus, they don't have to be in HPC.

 

I used to be in frequent contact with someone who then worked at a UK university with their own supercomputer. His daily driver was a Mac, but the code he writes for the supercomputer essentially has nothing to do with code written for the Mac (as opposed to on a Mac).

I'll reword it: how much do people target Apple's systems when it comes to "getting work done", whatever that may be?

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2 minutes ago, porina said:

Do they do anything beyond desktop/workstation level? Servers?

Both Mac Minis and Trashcan Pros are commonly used as servers. So much so, companies like Sonnet made a viable market of rack mount enclosures for them.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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these two companies have been at each other's throats for years now, it was only a matter of time until NVidia or Apple just said "fuck it". They were never going to come to an agreement and neither company was going to cave to the other's demands. Regardless of who's side you're on, either Apple or NVidia, the outcome would have been the same and therefore the consumer loses the choice.

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16 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Both Mac Minis and Trashcan Pros are commonly used as servers. So much so, companies like Sonnet made a viable market of rack mount enclosures for them.

this is the coolest rack mounted server I've ever  seen

 

rackmacpro_rackmacprorackrails.jpg.e99076c56bc9104ef986c5164cd44c88.jpg

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Apple did have a brief shining moment in HPC when the Xserve was around (particularly the G5 versions), but I don't think it's particularly concerned about winning that battle.

 

And yea, makes it sound as if researchers were fully intending to buy $6,000+ Mac Pros to add in aftermarket NVIDIA cards in the hopes they might get a performance boost.  Er... not quite.  If you're going to get a Mac for research or other GPGPU-heavy tasks, you're getting it because you intend to use OpenCL on AMD graphics cards.  You can't afford to play roulette with driver support when your work is on the line.

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1 hour ago, Commodus said:

 If you're going to get a Mac for research or other GPGPU-heavy tasks, you're getting it because you intend to use OpenCL on AMD graphics cards.  

But then the question becomes what does a Mac give you that another system builder doesn't? OpenCL isn't exclusive to Apple, unless they were using "Open" ironically.

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Just now, Mira Yurizaki said:

But then the question becomes what does a Mac give you that another system builder doesn't? OpenCL isn't exclusive to Apple, unless they were using "Open" ironically.

It gives a large corporation supporting a Unix distro that is similar to BSD. Some organizations prefer that.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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4 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

But then the question becomes what does a Mac give you that another system builder doesn't? OpenCL isn't exclusive to Apple, unless they were using "Open" ironically.

It gives a Unix environment. Almost all research computing is done on *nix.

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1 hour ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

But then the question becomes what does a Mac give you that another system builder doesn't? OpenCL isn't exclusive to Apple, unless they were using "Open" ironically.

As others have elaborated: it gives you a Unix environment that's still easy to use and has a relatively rich app catalog.  That's particularly important if staff get laptops, since you're considerably less likely to find laptops with Linux (let alone another Unix variant) pre-installed.

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21 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

There isn't a single researcher out there who thought they could buy a new Mac Pro and put an Nvidia GPU in it. That's not technically feasible. An Nvidia GPU will not allow any Mac to Boot except for those which shipped with one from the factory. Further there are no drivers to allow Nvidia eGPUs to work in macOS. 

 

Apple does not need CUDA because they have OpenCL and will soon have the Vega II Pro Duo, which is going to be a more capable compute card than any single Nvidia offering. 

 

Mac programs do not utilize CUDA, Mac programmers do not utilize CUDA, Macs do not have Nvidia GPUs. Anyone who is using CUDA already has a PC. 

Really  not one  this is from 2018.   Plus who said anything about "mac programs"?  Matlab isn't a "mac program".  Mathematica isn't a "mac program".  Custom written C++ code can be whatever the heck the programmer wants it to be.   

 

I assure you my friend there are people who planned using a Mac Pro and Nvidia CUDA to get the benefits of having a UNIX or unix-like work station without the hassles of Linux or paying an astronomical price for anything else. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I assure you my friend there are people who planned using a Mac Pro and Nvidia CUDA to get the benefits of having a UNIX or unix-like work station without the hassles of Linux or paying an astronomical price for anything else. 

Well that’s too bad for them because they are SoL. Probably about time for them to move away from proprietary APIs and use cross platform technologies like OpenCL. 

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2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Probably about time for them to move away from proprietary APIs and use cross platform technologies like OpenCL. 

*Cough*Metal API*cough*

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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12 hours ago, porina said:

Not sure how to process this question. I'm not familiar with their entire product stack. Do they do anything beyond desktop/workstation level? Servers? They again, if it is not their focus, they don't have to be in HPC.

 

I used to be in frequent contact with someone who then worked at a UK university with their own supercomputer. His daily driver was a Mac, but the code he writes for the supercomputer essentially has nothing to do with code written for the Mac (as opposed to on a Mac).

This is the situation that I have in mind.  I have seen it with my own eyes around higher ed, research and industry.  Lots of people who want/need to write code for execution on a UNIX/Linux super computer, or cluster, (Probably even just the cloud AWS )  use Mac as their daily computer for work.   

 

I mean ... something as simple as writing a LaTeX doccument that compiles well in Windows will fail in Linux due to different conventions for directory structure or file naming etc etc internal OS differences etc.  It's just easier to avoid that kind of thing by using some flavor of *nix. 

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6 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

This is the situation that I have in mind.  I have seen it with my own eyes around higher ed, research and industry.  Lots of people who want/need to write code for execution on a UNIX/Linux super computer, or cluster, (Probably even just the cloud AWS )  use Mac as their daily computer for work.   

 

I mean ... something as simple as writing a LaTeX doccument that compiles well in Windows will fail in Linux due to different conventions for directory structure or file naming etc etc internal OS differences etc.  It's just easier to avoid that kind of thing by using some flavor of *nix. 

 

The people I know who work in that realm of software development say the same thing, they prefer mac solely for the unix'y bits.   Every thing else seems to be take it or leave it.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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6 hours ago, Commodus said:

Apple did have a brief shining moment in HPC when the Xserve was around (particularly the G5 versions), but I don't think it's particularly concerned about winning that battle.

 

And yea, makes it sound as if researchers were fully intending to buy $6,000+ Mac Pros to add in aftermarket NVIDIA cards in the hopes they might get a performance boost.  Er... not quite.  If you're going to get a Mac for research or other GPGPU-heavy tasks, you're getting it because you intend to use OpenCL on AMD graphics cards.  You can't afford to play roulette with driver support when your work is on the line.

They don't do it for a performance boost.  

Lots of code developers are NOT also tinkerers.  They want their computer to basically "just work".   Yet they also need a Unix/Linux based environment to code in and have their code run simply and cleanly.  Suppose you work for a major coproration, University, or university system, or research lab, ... 

 

You have access to one of these.  At least a share of time on one of these.   You don't have time for your code to not work.  The first step to getting it to work is having it at least not choke on your own desktop level setup. 

 

https://www.cray.com/products/computing/cs-series/cs-storm

 

Designed for Speed
Powered by NVIDIA® Volta or NVIDIA® Pascal™ architecture GPUs, each CS-Storm server node and rack system is integrated by Cray to deliver maximum accelerated computing performance across the broadest range of HPC and AI uses.

 

Suppose you are a theoretical physicist trying to work out the true identity of that 17 MeV particle or debunk it is really a thing by running Billions of calculations using various unified theory models.  You are preparing to do work that could determine someone elses Nobel Prize, if not your own.  More importantly reveal the truths of nature itself.  

 

Who has time to tinker with making sure your Libre Office Doc will look right when your boss, this guy if you are in the USA working for the Department of Energy.  Do you think that guy that well meaning but not at all scientific or technical guy, who thought DOE deal with drilling for oil before he got the job, is going to have patience for why your .docx looks screwed up? 

 

I love Linux.  I have used Linux since 1997 or maybe late 1996.  My first distro was a boxed copy of Caldera Open Linux.   It was then, and is now, not everyone's cup of tea.   For those people who wanted to code YET also did not want to tinker this is big. 

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18 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Well that’s too bad for them because they are SoL. Probably about time for them to move away from proprietary APIs and use cross platform technologies like OpenCL. 

 

Problem is that Open CL is just objectively not as good.  Plus their research institute likely bought or even built super computers or computer clusters around Nvidia technology.  Granted Nvidia GPU's can also do Open CL.  

 

However.  If you need to run code that tries, I emphasize tries, to account for quantities that are fundamentally tensors (gravitational effects, or stress, strain, and shear etc)  CUDA is superior.  Especially now that it has hardware made to efficiently process that. 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

The people I know who work in that realm of software development say the same thing, they prefer mac solely for the unix'y bits.   Every thing else seems to be take it or leave it.

Exactly. 

Unixy bits without the tinkering that Linux needs.    

I mean, even if you get a laptop that will work nicely with unix in every way.  Even if you buy one with Linux preinstalled... it still has to interface with corporate networks.  Unless you get a high spec chromebook forget about having one work with OneDrive or Google Docs in a simple straightforward manner. 

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