Right to Repair

[Reggie Dovener]

Welcome to the right to repair topic

[SansVarnic]

-= Moved to General Discussion =-

[r2724r16]

Yes

[Arika]

Should consumers have the right to repair their own stuff? Yes

 

Are manufacturers obligated to fix a customer's botched repair or take responsibility for it? No

 

/thread

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Should consumers have the right to repair their own stuff? Yes

 

Are manufacturers obligated to fix a customer's botched repair or take responsibility for it? No

 

/thread

To another extent, have support for parts which the customers buy themselves from a third party - like eBay.

[Worstcaster]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

Should consumers have the right to repair their own stuff? Yes

 

Are manufacturers obligated to fix a customer's botched repair or take responsibility for it? No

 

/thread

Yup

[enigmakahn]

I know with people like louis rossman fighting apple, and companies like John Deer making it impossible to repair things, this is bad, and should not continue, but I'm curious what experiences people have had with right to repair? 

 

I mean personally I have yet to really come up against any issues with it, I have not really ever had problems sourcing parts for my electronics and guides for it online.

Has anyone here come up against actual issues that would be helped along with proper right to repair legislation?

[Anomnomnomaly]

In the UK we actually have some pretty decent consumer laws... it can occasionally be hard to get companies to respect them... the attitude you tend to get is one of refusal in the hope that you aren't aware of your consumer rights. So it helps to make sure you are aware of a few little bits of regulations.

 

The sale and supply of goods act for example... to put it simply, means that any thing purchased must of sufficient quality and durability. What this means is that an item you purchased should have a reasonable expectation of longevity. So that TV you paid 1000 for shouldn't fail after the warranty runs out. but should last for at least 5yrs or more.

 

Most 'extended warranties' they try to get you to buy aren't really worth anything, as if the item fails in the first 2yrs you're covered under the initial guarantee and if it fails within 3-4yrs you have a right to expect it to be repaired or replaced.

 

We also have the unfair terms and conditions in consumer contracts legislation.  This is handy when fighting back against companies that include loads of ridiculous things in their terms of service and so forth.

 

When it comes to hire purchase agreements (Buy now pay later kind of thing) there is a cooling off period where you can return something and cancel within 14 days without penalty. Great for people who fell victim to pressure sales tactics... Oh and those high pressure sales tactics... also illegal.

 

There are no laws that state you cannot fix your own stuff, I do it all the time... but you do so at your own risk and any self or non authorised repair comes with no warranty of any kind (unless the repair place offers one of it's own)

 

So there aren't any companies being sued in the UK that I am aware of.. nor within the EU (Norway is not part of the EU, so the Apple vs small repair shop doesn't count in this analogy).

 

There are also laws in place that state all companies must have a complaints procedure in place, and supply that to the customer on request... This one can get companies into trouble and fined if they fail to adhere to it.

 

Then there's the 'subject access request' or SAO, this allows a customer to request a copy of ALL the data a company holds on you. Every company must have a data controller who deals with such requests and companies must provide you with the procedure to contact them upon request.  Again, there are fines and penalties that can be incurred if they fail to do so.  What this means is that they have to literally print out a copy of every page of every screen of your account... this can be time consuming to companies and thus costly. It used to come with a £10 fee, but a few years ago this fee was eliminated and it's now free to request.  Companies have a timescale to deal with these request or again, face investigation and fines.

 

The laws are not perfect, and it's kinda down to the individual to pursue them and you'll often meet a brick wall of uncooperative people and denial of your rights... So you have to decide if you are prepared to fight it or not.

 

Then there's the small claims courts, which allows you to file a claim against companies or individuals. It's costs less than £40 to do so and this is often enough to make companies take things seriously.  In your claim you can only claim for what you are owed.. but you can add on interest for each day you are owed that money. This worked out at roughly 8% per annum and applied as a daily rate of that. You also claim your costs which can include reasonable time for dealing with the issue, costs of phone calls, letters and so forth.  If they fail to respond then they will find in your favour, so it's up to the company (can also be used on individuals) to prepare their own defence and appear in court. If they find in your favour, they have normally about 28 days to pay up the amount set by the court... after that you can enter a default against them and depending on the amount owed... can send in court appointed bailiffs to collect. This last part will significantly increase the costs as each visit from a bailiff can add upwards of £100 to their debt, and if they have to remove items to sell to cover the debt... that adds yet further fees.

 

I've had a few battles in recent years and had to use some of these laws. Last year I switched my ISP and my new one was such a disaster, they lied about everything and never delivered what I signed up for.  So I cancelled within the 4 week period (some are 2 some 4) and then had to put in an official complaint (I was able to direct that complaint to the CEO). The end result was an apology, cancellation of my service and a complete refund. So I had almost 4 weeks of free internet... But due to their screw ups and lies... I ended up being without phone or internet afterwards for just over 2 weeks.

 

It's also worth noting that we have a bit of a plague of debt recovery companies that operate with very dubious methods... They have no power to collect a single penny from anyone in spite of the threatening language contained in their letters (that's also been legally tightened up as they were making false statements to scare/threaten people which amounted to an attempt to threaten to obtain money with menaces)... Unless they have a court order that allows them to collect alleged monies owed, they can't do anything. You have no obligation to respond, nor to acknowledge anything. You can simply bin any letters that arrive.  If a debt has had no contact or acknowledgement for 7yrs it cannot be collected at all.

 

When it comes to utility companies that screw up and fail to send you bills, or under estimate your useage and then suddenly try to hit you with a massive bill... They cannot backdate it more than 12 months if they have failed to supply you with bills.

 

There are resources you can fall back on for advice. There's trading standards, the body set up to deal with customer issues... normally that's just advice on what steps you need to take yourself... But if it warrants it they can take direct action themselves on more serious matters.  The Citizens Advice Bureau is another good resource for help and info, they're often stretched quite thin but can do really good things. Then you have online communities such as the consumer action groups.who can offer advice and help with a whole range of issues... whilst it's staffed mainly by volunteers, there are many people who are or were lawyers and who work in or for consumer groups in general.  They had a hand in getting excessive bank charges banned and were part of the campaign that saw the whole banking PPI scandal resolved with billions having to be put aside to repay customers. they've also been involved in a scandal where the govt deliberately tried to deprive those most in need of the benefit payments they were entitled to from 2010 until around late 2017... Which at first was thought to affect around 75000 people and was going to cost the govt tens of millions (people were owed any thing up to 10-12k)... and then turned out to affect more than 200,000 and is going to cost more like half a billion to fix.  I personally know a vulnerable person with a disability who's unable to work who was forced to scrape by hand to mouth for 7yrs... never enough money to pay the bills or feed themselves and had to rely on foodbanks and friends/family to do simple things like fix their car or buy clothes (thankfully charity shops are plentiful because of poverty). I don't know the exact amount they were owed... but it was in the region of 6-7k... all because rich fuckers decide that punishing the poor, the vulnerable and those most in need is the way to go... because they're the ones who probably won;t speak up for themselves.  So we have advocacy groups who help... Such as local community law services that are staffed by volunteers and lawyers who can help people fight for their human rights and claim benefits they may be entitled to, just so they can survive and hopefully improve their life to a point they no longer need them.

 

 

Long post... tl:dr Laws and help available to people on consumer rights is pretty good but be prepared to fight for them.

[Sat1600]

Should corporations make it easy for end users to repair there own products if they want to? Absolutely.

 

Should corporations be required by law to help you? No.

[Uttamattamakin]

Yes right to repair is implied in the US constitution in more than one place.   (I won't say where ... read it and you will see.)  We just need to get a good case to the US Supreme court and in the US we will have it. 

[wasab]

4 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Yes right to repair is implied in the US constitution in more than one place.   (I won't say where ... read it and you will see.)  We just need to get a good case to the US Supreme court and in the US we will have it. 

It only protects against government however. It will do little against private bussiness and individuals just as first amendment does very little if Twitter wants to ban you for your tweets or if the mods on this forum wants to ban you for your posts. 

[danomicar]

Technology is too complex for the average person. letting people repair their own shit doesn't make sense. 

[enigmakahn]

On 6/28/2019 at 11:44 PM, danomicar said:

Technology is too complex for the average person. letting people repair their own shit doesn't make sense. 

This seems like a remarkably narrow view, unfortunately i do believe it is a a shared one. I mean by this logic, they should not sell individual computer parts because computers are just too complex for the average person.

 

The right to repair doesn't mean everyone has to fix their own crap, but if their stuff does break they should be able to buy the parts themselves, or at the very least the companies should support a robust private repair market after the fact so that consumers have a choice where they want to take their stuff.

[The King of the Undead]

On 6/29/2019 at 12:44 AM, danomicar said:

Technology is too complex for the average person. letting people repair their own shit doesn't make sense. 

I can fix a phone probably a smartwatch am fixing a air compressor and you could fix a flat tire most likely. Yes it does make sense thank you very much.

[Reggie Dovener]

On 6/27/2019 at 5:54 PM, enigmakahn said:

I know with people like louis rossman fighting apple, and companies like John Deer making it impossible to repair things, this is bad, and should not continue, but I'm curious what experiences people have had with right to repair? 

 

I mean personally I have yet to really come up against any issues with it, I have not really ever had problems sourcing parts for my electronics and guides for it online.

Has anyone here come up against actual issues that would be helped along with proper right to repair legislation?

One of my friends had a problem w/ APPLE!

[darth liutas]

On 6/26/2019 at 10:00 PM, Reggie Dovener said:

Welcome to the right to repair topic

yes we should have the right to repair our stuff,since if we know how,and i we have bought your product,its now ours and we have the full right to do what ever we want with it

Edited July 5, 2019 by darth liutas
made a typo

[darth liutas]

On 6/29/2019 at 6:44 AM, danomicar said:

Technology is too complex for the average person. letting people repair their own shit doesn't make sense. 

but at least we should have the right to go to our local repair service not some service like apple that will charge our butts with so much more money than they should

[XR6]

On 6/29/2019 at 6:44 AM, danomicar said:

letting people repair their own shit doesn't make sense. 

Yes, it does. If something I own breaks, why should I have to take it in to a manufacturer's store/repair center when I could do it by myself? Not to mention the fact that repairing something yourself would be cheaper and more convenient than having the manufacturer repair it.

 

[Sat1600]

On 7/2/2019 at 11:36 AM, enigmakahn said:

This seems like a remarkably narrow view, unfortunately i do believe it is a a shared one. I mean by this logic, they should not sell individual computer parts because computers are just too complex for the average person.

 

The right to repair doesn't mean everyone has to fix their own crap, but if their stuff does break they should be able to buy the parts themselves, or at the very least the companies should support a robust private repair market after the fact so that consumers have a choice where they want to take their stuff.

Key word being "should". If a company does not want to sell an item how can they be forced to? I think there should be public pressure. People should avoid manufacturers that make it hard for you to fix your own stuff. But if company A does not want to sell Chip x, I don't want the government forcing them to

[Alan G]

Companies control the "right to repair" by not making public repair manuals.  My Epson 3880 photo printer failed earlier this year because the black ink switch valve failed.  This is a well documented problem with Epson photo printers and while one can purchase new parts to repair it, the repair manual is considered intellectual property of Epson and "only" available to Epson certified repair facilities.  There are pirate versions of the repair guide available (but this gets into the legal and ethical realm)0 and also YouTube videos of varying quality that show how to repair the printer.  In the end I decided not to DIY repair as the cost in parts, ink, and time was not worth it and purchased a new printer.

 

The new Nikon Z mirrorless cameras do not have any instructions about how to clean the sensor and state it needs to be returned to Nikon for cleaning.  Many of us cleaned Nikon DSLR sensors which were fixed in the camera body without issue.  The Z cameras have the sensor that 'floats' when enabled to correct for camera shake which is presumably the reason Nikon offers no DIY approach to cleaning.

[danomicar]

On 7/5/2019 at 5:59 AM, XR6 said:

Yes, it does. If something I own breaks, why should I have to take it in to a manufacturer's store/repair center when I could do it by myself? Not to mention the fact that repairing something yourself would be cheaper and more convenient than having the manufacturer repair it.

 

Just because a small amount of people are knowledgeable enough to repair their own devices doesn't mean it makes financial sense to allow them to do so. 

 

What if repairing your own device meant you did not purchase a new one? Is that in the best interest of the company?

[Anomnomnomaly]

21 hours ago, Alan G said:

Companies control the "right to repair" by not making public repair manuals.  My Epson 3880 photo printer failed earlier this year because the black ink switch valve failed.  This is a well documented problem with Epson photo printers and while one can purchase new parts to repair it, the repair manual is considered intellectual property of Epson and "only" available to Epson certified repair facilities.  There are pirate versions of the repair guide available (but this gets into the legal and ethical realm)0 and also YouTube videos of varying quality that show how to repair the printer.  In the end I decided not to DIY repair as the cost in parts, ink, and time was not worth it and purchased a new printer.

 

The new Nikon Z mirrorless cameras do not have any instructions about how to clean the sensor and state it needs to be returned to Nikon for cleaning.  Many of us cleaned Nikon DSLR sensors which were fixed in the camera body without issue.  The Z cameras have the sensor that 'floats' when enabled to correct for camera shake which is presumably the reason Nikon offers no DIY approach to cleaning.

This is a major problem with the printer industry in general... The ink is more expensive that the most expensive champagne per ml... They sell the printers at either cost or a small loss because they make 90% of their money on the ink.  It's the same with razors... the money is the lock in for the blades.

 

Ever wondered why they keep coming out with new designs for blades... because as patents expire and 3rd parties can get in on the act... their revenues take a dip as people switch to cheaper versions.

 

With printers.. it can often be cheaper to simply go out and buy another printer that comes with 1/2 filled cartridges than it is to actually replace the cartridges with branded ones.

 

Now imagine what that's like for an environmental point of view... These are areas where the cartel needs to be broken up... and there has been a start... One of the major manufacturers tried to deliberately brick printers if they detected 3rd party cartridges... and had to roll that back and stop doing it.

 

But ALL of them still try to make it has hard as possible to use 3rd party inks... Epson for example makes you jump through so many hoops before it will actually print using off brand inks... and I'm sure it demands that you clean them twice as often wasting more ink per clean than it would normally.

[Uttamattamakin]

On 6/28/2019 at 10:07 PM, wasab said:

It only protects against government however. It will do little against private bussiness and individuals just as first amendment does very little if Twitter wants to ban you for your tweets or if the mods on this forum wants to ban you for your posts. 

True. However a private party can be sued for violating your civil rights.   

I am not a lawyer or a constitutional law expert 

 

In my ignorant opinion.

Specifically the US constitution requires the federal government to take the definition of "private property" to be the common law definition thereof.       Further there is the the Due process clause and how it has been interpreted and applied in federal laws and regulations. 

 

In that second link look at the sections on regulations of corporations.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

2 hours ago, danomicar said:

What if repairing your own device meant you did not purchase a new one? Is that in the best interest of the company?

So if a device has a problem which can easily be fixed, you'd rather have people buy a new one instead because that's better for the companies? 

 

That's only going to encourage said companies to make products that fail faster.  We're already seeing that trend with a certain company that equips its phones with batteries that degrade quickly and then "fixes" this problem in software by reducing the devices' performance once the battery hits a certain age, making the owners think that they should upgrade to the newer, faster model even though there's nothing really wrong with their 18 month old phone. 

 

 

Also, taking away people's ability to repair electronics is going to increase the amount of e-waste, which is already problematic at the rate we're currently throwing perfectly fixable stuff away.

Spoiler

 

This may not be near you and hence may not be polluting the water you drink, but that doesn't make it any less of a problem on a global scale.  Repairing stuff rather than replacing it WILL help reduce the amount of e-waste the west dumps in poorer regions. 

[RightToRepair2021]