LTT Conglomerate main discussion thread

[rentaspoon]

you pay taxes to help maintain the org, a % tax does no more harm to the pour than to the rich it's not like they are saying 200k uec per job as a tax, it's more like 5% of the job's pay, you make 20 uec for the job you pay 1 in tax you make 20m uec for a job you pay 1m in tax. the texes will go for things like the fees we will more than likely have for owning a station, or owning space. for more ships for anyone in the org to use, to provide compensation for the fighter escorts so that doesn't come out of your pocket, other than the tax, but if you had to hire escorts it would be far more than 5% value of your cargo.

So you'll get people leave when they deem tax as to high.

1. Tax is to boring for in game

2. If im in the military, im going to care less to the ship you gave me then the one I brought.

3. I WOULD actually leave UOLTT if there was tax. I love you guys but no thanks

4. A self profit military would make sense, your put your earnings in to the trade your in and you and your comrades get the equipment you need for the job

[qwertywarrior]

i think is better to wait for release before buying credits, because when the open universe gets on alpha, they talked about resetting everything before moving to beta and depending on how things turn out maybe they do it again before full release, as for ships well that depends on how you want to play, freelancer is the best for transport and the 325a is good as a starter ship, and for release, the DFM (dog fight module) is getting completely revealed at pax this weekend, and it should release very soon afterwards, for full release they are expecting early 2015, but if they have to delay they will do it, because these guys are going for the best thing possible without compromises 

i heard that things will cost more later (double the price)

also will they lock down buying stuff when beta starts

im reading conflicting info

[koolkoaster]

As @rucdoc said, an organisation needs funds to run, just like a government needs tax to operate. The tax could go towards buying factory or space station nodes, fighting wars/battles (as said above), management fees, etc.

[supaginge]

the main use for taxes will be to pay the military to defend out bases, hire mercenary if needed, and buy space stations/planets

[AlexGoesHigh]

i heard that things will cost more later (double the price)

also will they lock down buying stuff when beta starts

im reading conflicting info

1) maybe not sure

2) they haven't said nothing about beta, so no one has an idea, everything about it is speculation

3) that because a lot of people are speculating due to excitement and that the pieces of information that CIG has released are mostly ideas an concepts, just the basics has been laid out 

[Artofinca]

soon  ^^

www.wipnation.com/posts?PostKey=11240

http://www.wipnation.com/posts?PostKey=11240

i am unable to attach a picture...

[rentaspoon]

the main use for taxes will be to pay the military to defend out bases, hire mercenary if needed, and buy space stations/planets

I plan on defending myself and anyone within the org, the way I see it is we shouldn't get into wars and if we have a base we should have enough users at one point to defend that base.

[b45op]

So you'll get people leave when they deem tax as to high.

1. Tax is to boring for in game

2. If im in the military, im going to care less to the ship you gave me then the one I brought.

3. I WOULD actually leave UOLTT if there was tax. I love you guys but no thanks

4. A self profit military would make sense, your put your earnings in to the trade your in and you and your comrades get the equipment you need for the job

 

is a 1 or 2 or 5% tax to high on a job. If for that you got your fuel subsidised or your insurance paid (ixi has said in this thread that this would be an aim if possible) as well as keeping kingships and carriers that we all seem excited about running, this is to say nothing of space stations, nodes, mining rigs and all that other stuff. While boring, taxes are boring I will admit, it would most likely be done automatically on completion of a job the org gets a cut. This is helping the organisation that you have joined.

 

Then you probably won't be given a ship personally I think the giving out a ship wouldn't work because of that exact reason as well as theft, but a cheap rental service might be possible, have you ever dinged a rental car! I know loaning out ships will be possible. So the org might have a fleet that can be hired, say you have a fighter and suddenly you come across a large shipment of bat guano that could net you millions but it won't fit in the hold... rent a cargo carrier.

 

Have you left your country because of taxes?

 

Basically everyone is getting worked up about an unknown. We dont know how the org taxation or fee system will be implemented in game until we do we can make no plans as to how to go about it, this will not be costly no matter if you are rich or poor but you are having a laugh if you think it should be nothing while expecting the world.

 

tl;dr Until its out and we have a full set of information we can't really make any decisions or estimations that won't blow up in our faces.

[Artofinca]

is a 1 or 2 or 5% tax to high on a job. If for that you got your fuel subsidised or your insurance paid (ixi has said in this thread that this would be an aim if possible) as well as keeping kingships and carriers that we all seem excited about running, this is to say nothing of space stations, nodes, mining rigs and all that other stuff. While boring, taxes are boring I will admit, it would most likely be done automatically on completion of a job the org gets a cut. This is helping the organisation that you have joined.

 

Then you probably won't be given a ship personally I think the giving out a ship wouldn't work because of that exact reason as well as theft, but a cheap rental service might be possible, have you ever dinged a rental car! I know loaning out ships will be possible. So the org might have a fleet that can be hired, say you have a fighter and suddenly you come across a large shipment of bat guano that could net you millions but it won't fit in the hold... rent a cargo carrier.

 

Have you left your country because of taxes?

 

Basically everyone is getting worked up about an unknown. We dont know how the org taxation or fee system will be implemented in game until we do we can make no plans as to how to go about it, this will not be costly no matter if you are rich or poor but you are having a laugh if you think it should be nothing while expecting the world.

 

tl;dr Until its out and we have a full set of information we can't really make any decisions or estimations that won't blow up in our faces.

true

[rentaspoon]

-some good points-

Depends on how big the job pay out is

I dont want your ships anyway :lol:

I haven't left because taxes are ok, bit different than in game.

I'd rather have the organization as a community like the forums and @Slick have a king ship he's earned then one that we've all brought and Slick flying it around .

And we should be discussing this now rather than later so we all know where we are at.

[ixi_your_face]

-snip-

 

 

-snip-

 

 

-snip-

 

 

-snip-

 

 

-snip-

 

 

 

To answer the question of taxation, I'll quote myself, on the last time this was brought up, as my position hasn't changed.

 

My input on this would be for to have a membership fee and to have an income tax rate, both to be rather negligible numbers in %, but enough to sustain the org as a whole.

 

For example :

 

If the membership fee (paid once a month, or so) is 5k UEC, and the income tax is 10% then;

 

at our current numbers we'd pull in 7,150,000 UEC straight away. Then say the average job pays around 10,000 UEC, then we'd deduct 1k from that, which is a further 1,430,000 UEC from there if each member does a job like that.

 

Obviously there's still a lot of unknowns as to how much UEC will be worth, so we'll definitely adjust to fit with those. We want to be prosperous, without leaving you guys too out of pocket.

 

The things I'd hope to buy with that 8,580,000 UEC would be :

 

• Ships to power our fleet
• To buy and maintain Space Stations
• To provide (possible) Insurance through the org
• To buy new star charts
• To offer bonuses to our members in our owned space
• Obviously not everything will come straight away. But that's what I hope to do with the UEC once we're set up and running.

 

As for the membership fee, We'll see how it goes, I'd imagine it to be a thing that's only around for a little while until we've got a stable platform to sit on, and maybe as a surplus amount of cash for war or such. I honestly see no issues with a small membership fee, like anything it's necessary to keep the thing running, i really don't plan on having it be crazy huge, just a little something that's pocket change to an individual, but a decent chunk of cash when all rounded up.

 

I'd also like to add that in that case, I'd like there to be a fixed tax rate for those who choose not to participate in other org activities. As a member of the org, you will be expected to put time into the org in one way or another, while we are open ended in terms of roles and activity, we're ultimately going to be a business and as a business we need a sustainable income. That income comes from you guys doing jobs and membership fees. Without these we wouldn't be able to even offer the simplest of benefits, and then, what's the point of being in the org if there's no fiscal or personal benefits? Why be part of an org that has more bark than bite? The money from membership and taxes will go to make sure that we're not just a bunch of pushovers flying under a similar flag, but an economical powerhouse that is a definite force to be reckoned with. The only thing that is really asked from you for benefits such as the ones outlined in a previous post are a small membership fee and taxes to offset the cost of those benefits. 

 

With all of that said, we're also going to be a business, which means pulling a profit at the end of the day. Whether it's 1000 UEC or 10 million UEC,  The money will be to ensure that we can defend ourselves, members and property should it be put under threat, by whoever decides to try that. I have no qualms with members who wish not to contribute to this, I have no issue if you wish to abstain from the membership fee. But I will say, you will pay tax, and you won't get benefits from the org. There's no getting around the fact that those who abide by the membership fee and tax as they will be in game are those who deserve the benefits, and those who don't do not. Should you disagree with this idea, then feel free to say. It is all in the air atm. However it's important to note that we're not only an org, we're a large org and as such we'll be coming under fire a lot. There's not going to be much room for error. Money talks and a large bank book ensures we have a buffer for mistakes and we have the ability to rebuild from that.

[rucdoc]

so a bit blury but looks okish

 

http://imgur.com/Pkx1ebo

[supaginge]

guys the tax is only 5% that's nothing, most jobs will be in the thousands so yea 5% wont affect your profit at all

a job worth 15,000 you will only lose 750 so your profit from the job will be 14,250 so still plenty fro you to waste on pot and booze 

[rentaspoon]

so a bit blury but looks okishhttp://imgur.com/Pkx1ebo

Love the colours! Love how arty we all are getting

wise words from ixi

Membership fees would kill someone who doesn't play often.How about a tax AND "crowd funding" for space stations etc with members getting areas or the entire space station named after or an approve name.That said I'd rather work for free towards something for the org and felt we earnt it

[ixi_your_face]

Love the colours! Love how arty we all are getting

 

Membership fees would kill someone who doesn't play often.How about a tax AND "crowd funding" for space stations etc with members getting areas or the entire space station named after or an approve name.That said I'd rather work for free towards something for the org and felt we earnt it

 

 

def, membership fees would probably only be around for the first little while, but only once everyone can actually pay it. Just to pull in that initial cash to buy us an org hangar and maybe some ships. From there i'd probably be a fixed tax rate, with benefits coming progressively down the line.

 

Also, I'd like to reiterate that if you refuse to pay taxes, then you will not receive any help whatsoever from the org as a whole. Not that i don't expect it to be an automatic thing. 5-15% of your earnings is not much whatsoever considering the benefits.

 

 

If it is possible, i'd like to probably illeviate the issue of bleeding people who don't have much time to play dry by making it a requirement that if you've played more than x amount per month you pay membership fees or something. Membership fees would probably disappear once we're on our collective feet.

[DamDirtyApe]

def, membership fees would probably only be around for the first little while, but only once everyone can actually pay it. Just to pull in that initial cash to buy us an org hangar and maybe some ships. From there i'd probably be a fixed tax rate, with benefits coming progressively down the line.

 

Also, I'd like to reiterate that if you refuse to pay taxes, then you will not receive any help whatsoever from the org as a whole. Not that i don't expect it to be an automatic thing. 5-15% of your earnings is not much whatsoever considering the benefits.

 

 

If it is possible, i'd like to probably illeviate the issue of bleeding people who don't have much time to play dry by making it a requirement that if you've played more than x amount per month you pay membership fees or something. Membership fees would probably disappear once we're on our collective feet.

i feel you on the taxes for sure. Membership fee seems fairly work intensive to collect, account for and manage. But taxing is mandatory in my opinion.

 

Money we collect goes towards bettering the fleet and the fleets defenses. It's like in most MMOs. You pay a guild tax which will then go towards making better armor, better weapons, new spells, etc. All of which will help the guild as a whole. Paying the taxes means you have definite help from the HC (Though I think most UOLTTC players will still help each other regardless if tax paying is an option), you're helping the military for us to claim more star systems, potentially R&D, helping fund operations like Operation Monarch or Operation Citadel (I'll tell you about thiis one later, haha.), there's so much benefit to this. It can even help us establish a market between the UOLTTC pilots. That helps trade, salvage, transport, pirates, mercs, etc.

 

I'm all for the tax idea. Membership fee I don't mind either, but I know on this one there will be a lot of people who are against it, and that makes perfect sense to me. But tax is... As I stated, should be mandatory.

 

Now I'm just looking forward to the UOLTTC Hangar. I want to park Scythes in there that we capture. Make it a sort of museum. A very expensive museum.

[rentaspoon]

Changing the subject because I'm fed up with talking about taxes

I keep seeing people say "it's like in most MMOs"

Am I the only one who doesnt think SC is like most MMOs?

[Jobobee]

So you'll get people leave when they deem tax as to high.

1. Tax is to boring for in game

2. If im in the military, im going to care less to the ship you gave me then the one I brought.

3. I WOULD actually leave UOLTT if there was tax. I love you guys but no thanks

4. A self profit military would make sense, your put your earnings in to the trade your in and you and your comrades get the equipment you need for the job

Most large orgs will have tax.

[Jobobee]

Maybe there will be a deal for buying ships in bulk...

[rentaspoon]

Most large orgs will have tax.

Doesn't mean we have to and it would be a good selling point

[DamDirtyApe]

Changing the subject because I'm fed up with talking about taxes

I keep seeing people say "it's like in most MMOs"

Am I the only one who doesnt think SC is like most MMOs?

 

Nah, I'm totally with you. SC is very different than MMOs as it's a space simulator that happens to be an MMO. Trying to keep the RPG aspect out of it, though it is a true RPG, just not in the modern concept.

 

I think everyone compares certain details to other MMOs. Organization rules, PvP code of conduct, VOIP systems, things like that. It's so new and so full of only concepts that we only can really reference ideas from other MMOs until we get an actual product. We really have nothing concrete to talk about outside of... Hangars, some ships and soon DFM. Everything else we're hearing from interviews and are only ideas at this point.

 

But I don't think you're alone in that thought. SC is incredibly unique.

[DamDirtyApe]

Doesn't mean we have to and it would be a good selling point

 

Well, most organizations will have a tax, which is true. But having a large organization means if we tax a small amount, E.G. 5%, we'll save up TONS of money. As long as the financial spending is worth it for the organization in the long run, or short run, it's worth it.

 

Now, for the same topic, but not directed at you: (Keep in mind this is entirely my opinion so take none of this as fact of the fleet. Nor am I trying to make a target out of people or venting. Just trying to cut the HC some slack in their decisions.)

 

The only beef about tax debates, not saying this is you so please don't take it as a direct comment towards you, Rentaspoon, is that you can't please everyone. That's a for sure. But everyone wants to be pleased.

 

But some people come out wanting the game to be more realistic, then you pay taxes like in real life.

 

Some people want the organization to be more organized or have more structure in trade, transport, military, special operations, special events etc. But there has to be incentive for people who are working on those details. Tax pays those people as well as can pay everyone else.

 

People want us to expand the fleet to control more systems. Taxes help buy new ships to defend those systems. You can't defend a star system with a fleet of Hornets. We need capital ships. Something that's intimidating and has the potential to knock out an enemy capital ship. And we don't know how often we'll find NPC ships we can steal them. Much less how big of a target it'll make us if we only steal from players. With all the variables, taxes at the very least adds a sense of security with the purchasing of corvette class ships.

 

There's also so many small details that go into running a huge organization, but for some people those details will become like a job. Out of a thousand people, how many want to be a full time treasurer? No one wants to be full time. So we need a team of people organizing that. Should they be paid from the taxes for their hard work? I think absolutely. On the contrary though, should I get paid for playing with 7 friends who are not in the UOLTTC? Absolutely not. But if I'm benefiting from fleet resources or the fleet protection when other players are working hard in order to make everything work, I feel I should contribute in some way if I'm reaping a reward. The HC, when the game starts, will be busy setting up the game they may not have time to actually play it. Though, that's probably fun to them. Being a government for the people, by the people and <REDACTED>. But I have no problem paying them taxes, IF THEY WERE TO TAKE IT AS PAYMENT WHICH THEY ARE NOT CLAIMING, to handle all the paperwork and do all that PR stuff. Creating a fleet... Where UOLTTC and fish can coexist peacefully.

 

I mean, I'm working on Operation Monarch and Operation Citadel right now. I do it cause it's fun. I don't want to be reimbursed. I'm doing it for the love of the fleet, the fact that I like writing reports (I dunno, it's a weird thing. A fetish? I dunno. Don't say fetish. That makes me feel awkward.) and the awesomeness it will become when we have 1000 people attacking a <REDACTED>. But I haven't heard of anyone else working on something as organized as the one that my team and myself are working on. I only hope they are. We can hope that people will do the same for other aspects, but we cannot expect it. And for each group working on a project like this, there are others who should get reimbursed for their time. I don't want payment for the work we put into this. But I do want my team to get paid in at least... Moral support. Bravado. Maybe first dibs on a <REDACTED> when we <REDACTED> the <REDACTED>. If you get what I mean. ... <REDACTED>.

 

(Yo dawg, I heard you like <REDACTED>. So I put a <REDACTED> in your <REDACTED> so you can <REDACTED> while you <REDACTED>.)

 

I understand people don't want to pay taxes or feel it should be put in a different way. But at least give the HC time to put together a draft structure. The game isn't out for another year at least. For now, personally, I don't see the problem. Specially when it comes to taxes. With such a small amount coming out of our paychecks, I don't really think I'll care.

 

And for people who are worried that they'll be flying solo with NPCs and won't be able to make a large income and therefore be the most harmed by taxes, that's what the forums and chat are for. Setting up groups. If you're working solo the point of being part of a large organization is to benefit from the organization when you want to. Taxes should pay for that right.

 

But yeah, these are just ramblings. Don't mind, don't mind.

 

I can still understand why anyone would not want to pay taxes. I'm just trying to defend it, because I'm in favor of it.

 

Paid for by viewers like you.

[DamDirtyApe]

Also wow. That turned out hella longer than I anticipated. MY BAD!

[Jobobee]

Also wow. That turned out hella longer than I anticipated. MY BAD!

Hahaha. I might draft up a document, so we can just link them to that if they have any questions about the tax.

[ixi_your_face]

-Many words on DamDirtyApe's fetish-

 

I do plan of getting everything working before the game launches. It's going to be tough, with college coming up and all. But if i manage my spending correctly throughout the next year, i should be able to make the org my job, per-se. 

 

I'm hoping to get a UOLTT tournament going for dogfighting. I think that'd be a cool idea, see who is the best pilot among us

 

 

^Fetish.