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*UPDATED* Radeon VII's HBM 2 Costs Almost Half the GPU's Price

YoloSwag
By YoloSwag
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13 hours ago, KaitouX said:

At the point he made the suggestion AMD was probably expecting Turing to have similar performance improvements compared to Pascal, as Pascal had over Maxwell, so making a $700 card that would have the same performance as the supposed new $350 card would be stupid, but Nvidia Turing cards had basically the same performance as the Pascal ones which probably caused the Radeon VII to be a possibility to keep AMD name around until they can show Navi.

Hmm this probably sounds like a crazy movie theory that actually makes a lot of sense.

 

AMD launching a 7nm version of their current architectures (RX 590 & Radeon VII) was because they knew Turing wasn't much of an improvement makes a lot of sense.

 

I always thought they'd push for Navi to launch alongside Turing since both of them basically had about 2 years+ to think it through. But if it turns out Navi is significantly better than Polaris, AMD would have a winner here.

 

Out of Topic - Did you know in the movie 'The Prestige' by the Nolan brothers, it was possible that the Tesla "cloning" machine didn't actually work and the movie wouldn't then be considered a sci-fi film?

Edited by YoloSwag
correction from Stefan Payne regarding RX 590

You can bark like a dog, but that won't make you a dog.

You can act like someone you're not, but that won't change who you are.

 

Finished Crysis without a discrete GPU,15 FPS average, and a lot of heart

 

How I plan my builds -

Spoiler

For me I start with the "There's no way I'm not gonna spend $1,000 on a system."

Followed by the "Wow I need to buy the OS for a $100!?"

Then "Let's start with the 'best budget GPU' and 'best budget CPU' that actually fits what I think is my budget."

Realizing my budget is a lot less, I work my way to "I think these new games will run on a cheap ass CPU."

Then end with "The new parts launching next year is probably gonna be better and faster for the same price so I'll just buy next year."

 

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2 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

...why use that memory then?

 

Capacity, Memory Bandwidth, and Power.

 

You have to remember VEGA was really designed for the datacenter, and that loves memory bandwidth and Capacity.

 

Currently until 2GB GDDR6 chips arive 12Gb is the max you can put on a single card with GDDR. HMB2's last update allowed for upto 24Gb chips. And whilst it would need a memory controller redesign AMD has the space on card  to surround the GPU die with 8 of these. thats just shy of 200GB's of memory with 2TB of transfer speed. GDDR of any description isn't going to have that kind of capacity for a decade or more if ever. For HBM 3 they're talking being able to squeeze a terabyte of memory onto the card with equally large access speed increases.

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27 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Capacity, Memory Bandwidth, and Power.

 

You have to remember VEGA was really designed for the datacenter, and that loves memory bandwidth and Capacity.

 

Currently until 2GB GDDR6 chips arive 12Gb is the max you can put on a single card with GDDR. HMB2's last update allowed for upto 24Gb chips. And whilst it would need a memory controller redesign AMD has the space on card  to surround the GPU die with 8 of these. thats just shy of 200GB's of memory with 2TB of transfer speed. GDDR of any description isn't going to have that kind of capacity for a decade or more if ever. For HBM 3 they're talking being able to squeeze a terabyte of memory onto the card with equally large access speed increases.

AMD also expect HBM2 to come in about 1/4 the cost it currently sits at. That's really the entire difference. RX Vega was always going to be hard sell since they had to clock it too high for the node, but AMD made a design around HBM2 and it just isn't a consumer-viable memory tech right now. 

 

Yet, somehow, AMD has sold 10x as many Vegas as Fury parts. (Per their own statements.) So, it worked, even if AMD failed pretty badly at the "Compute GPU we can sell to Gamers for a lot of money" play that Nvidia does.

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Posted
3 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

...why use that memory then?

Again the Radeon 7 is just a rebranded MI50 accelerator used in datacenters. AMD used it to just stay on the market. It would typically be used in an HPC that could actually utilize the memory bandwidth for deep learning and so on

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
3 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Capacity, Memory Bandwidth, and Power.

 

You have to remember VEGA was really designed for the datacenter, and that loves memory bandwidth and Capacity.

And Nvidia's memory compression is much better than AMD's so they need less of it comparatively.

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Posted
7 hours ago, YoloSwag said:

WHAT IF AMD LAUNCHED A RADEON VII WITH ONLY 8GB of HBM2!?

It would be pointless as its basically a Standard RX Vega...

7 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

...why use that memory then?

because lower power consumption due to less powerful PHY, so that saves a lot of money. Especially for such high bandwiths its important...

 

Oh and space on the PCB as well...

As you don't need pins for the memory to go off the package. All you need is a bit of Display, PCIe and Power...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted
5 hours ago, YoloSwag said:

AMD launching a 7nm version of their current architectures (RX 590 & Radeon VII)

RX590 is 12nm, wich is basically an improved 14nm process with some slight changes, wich allows for higher clockrates and/or better power consumption.

 

Only Radeon 7 is 7nm.

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted

I doubt AMD would change to 8gb HBM2 memory, mainly because they announced at CES that it would be 16 and I've seen commercials and ads saying it'll be 16. A switch like that might be worth suing over, some people might actually try that.

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Posted
6 hours ago, schwellmo92 said:

Something to keep in mind is the HBM price estimates were from when flash memory was in short demand and prices inflated. Supply has caught up and prices have dropped quite a bit, mind you I’m not sure how much of the flash price drop makes it through to HBM.

HBM is a type of DRAM, that's the market you want to look at. The price cycles for DRAM and NAND have obviously had a lot in common recently, but they're not quite the same as converting fabs between DRAM and NAND production is possible but not trivial.

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32 minutes ago, mxk. said:

I doubt AMD would change to 8gb HBM2 memory, mainly because they announced at CES that it would be 16 and I've seen commercials and ads saying it'll be 16. A switch like that might be worth suing over, some people might actually try that.

More like the Vega VII is rebadged MI50, so they can't remove that 8gb, because then they would have to design a new card, but because the VEGA VII is just a one off card it would be pointless. Navi was just delayed a bit, so amd felt like they needed to show something of at ces, so they showed of vega 2.

I only see your reply if you @ me.

This reply/comment was generated by AI.

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Posted

Me thinks that if an 8GB Radeon VII was viable for AMD to make, we would just have a refreshed Vega 64 and Vega 56. We don't, so I assume Radeon VII gets nearly all of its performance uplift from not being memory starved.

 

Honestly, I'd love a channel like GN to try running Radeon VII's memory near Vega speeds (basically as if it were 8GB) to compare to Vega 64/56. I have a suspicion it might sit in the same performance bracket as 64 or a tad slower, but not terribly high above.

if you have to insist you think for yourself, i'm not going to believe you.

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Posted
34 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

More like the Vega VII is rebadged MI50, so they can't remove that 8gb, because then they would have to design a new card,

No, they have to change the Manufacturing Process of the GPU and either remove 2 HBM Stacks or order lower stacks (don't remember if its 2hi or 4hi they have to order).

 

 

Problem with that is:

a) Navi is already up and running, they know how it will perform.

b) its a limited production run that is not really designed to be sold for very long (like Polaris)

 

 

34 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

but because the VEGA VII is just a one off card it would be pointless. Navi was just delayed a bit, so amd felt like they needed to show something of at ces, so they showed of vega 2.

Exactly!

its just something so that they could show a 7nm GPU on CES without Osborning their Polaris and VEGA line...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted
30 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, they have to change the Manufacturing Process of the GPU and either remove 2 HBM Stacks or order lower stacks (don't remember if its 2hi or 4hi they have to order).

 

 

Problem with that is:

a) Navi is already up and running, they know how it will perform.

b) its a limited production run that is not really designed to be sold for very long (like Polaris)

Yeah my theory is that they didn't quite make it in time with Navi for CES, so they temporarily showed off the vega 2. But i don't agree with that:

Quote

b) its a limited production run that is not really designed to be sold for very long (like Polaris)

Polaris has been produced for over 3 years now? I wouldn't call that a limited production run in any means. rx480, rx580, rx590, that is 2-3 generations of mass produced gpus.

I only see your reply if you @ me.

This reply/comment was generated by AI.

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Posted

Are they doing the same thing as the "chiplet" design? Hoping the sunk costs in development is going to pay back in the long run? If you can get costs down, the product will kill the competition.

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17 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

Yeah my theory is that they didn't quite make it in time with Navi for CES, so they temporarily showed off the vega 2.

Yeah, was also something other people said about it...

 

17 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

Polaris has been produced for over 3 years now? I wouldn't call that a limited production run in any means. rx480, rx580, rx590, that is 2-3 generations of mass produced gpus.

ARGH, I hate language. 

Yes, you can interpret it and I should have said "unlike" Polaris. Was thinking about that Polaris was in production for a couple of years already...

 

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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22 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Are they doing the same thing as the "chiplet" design? Hoping the sunk costs in development is going to pay back in the long run? If you can get costs down, the product will kill the competition.

I think only Arcturus or later would be using chiplets. I think neither Vega or Navi were made with that in mind.

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Posted
10 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

...why use that memory then?

Because it's Vega. There's no way they're paying full price for it. They buy too much volume.

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Posted

That's silly. AMD needs to change the type of memory used, I doubt the performance benefits are that significant to justify the cost.

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CPU: Ryzen 7 5800X

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RAM: 32GB 3600MHz

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Posted
10 hours ago, Dogeystyle said:

AMD come on man, use that HBM production capacity to refresh 56 and 64 on 12nm so I can finally upgrade my GPU and not have to deal with this stupid farming malware  GeForce Experience every time I start up a game

You can just use the drivers without GFE. I do.

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Posted
40 minutes ago, sof006 said:

That's silly. AMD needs to change the type of memory used, I doubt the performance benefits are that significant to justify the cost.

 

Actually tests where run on Vega 56/64 where they overclocked the memory and it significantly improved the performance. More than overclocking the GPU core. VEGA as an architecture is enormously memory starved on 14nm.

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1 hour ago, KaitouX said:

I think only Arcturus or later would be using chiplets. I think neither Vega or Navi were made with that in mind.

Nah. I mean, chiplets took a lot of cost and development time, but are a real mid tier and low power use case product killer. They are an amazing design and product, but took a LONG time to get here. HBM seems the same, expensive, but a game changer once up and running properly (imagine a 2080ti with HBM XD ).

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Posted
55 minutes ago, PacketMan said:

It would be nice to see a Radeon VII Lite or something like that with just 6-8GB of VRAM

Cheaper for videogames, and still a lot of VRAM

You will see something like that maybe in Summer or so.

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted
16 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

You will see something like that maybe in Summer or so.

 

Highly unlikely. NAVI should be here by then. R7 is just a tide-me-over move till NAVI gets here.

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Posted
Just now, CarlBar said:

 

Highly unlikely. NAVI should be here by then.

Exactly ?

that's what I meant

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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3 hours ago, Origami Cactus said:

More like the Vega VII is rebadged MI50, so they can't remove that 8gb, because then they would have to design a new card, but because the VEGA VII is just a one off card it would be pointless. Navi was just delayed a bit, so amd felt like they needed to show something of at ces, so they showed of vega 2.

make sense.

8086k

aorus pro z390

noctua nh-d15s chromax w black cover

evga 3070 ultra

samsung 128gb, adata swordfish 1tb, wd blue 1tb

seasonic 620w dogballs psu

 

 

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