WTF is nest? a rant about americentrism in tech and internet in general

[AlwaysFSX]

10 minutes ago, Skipple said:

Ah come on... 

 

Would you rather say 1 cup of flour?

 

Or 236ml of flour?

Or .25l of flour? 

Weight > volume for baking

[Semper]

I object (am objected, will always object) to everything IoT. I know enough to know that I don't know enough about cybersecurity ( I know enough to know that my devices are never truly completely secure, as opposed to someone who knows "my devices are safe because I set a password", but what I do know is that a very common intrusion point is all these IoT devices that have horrid security implementations.

I would consider myself within the realm of tech enthusiast. I like my tech toys, I like tinkering with builds, I like learning about software and hardware on a deeper level than most consumers see. Because of what i've learned over my 15+ years doing this I don't want a smart thermometer. I don't want a smart garage door opener. I don't want smart lights. I don't want a "home assistant", I don't want a "smart car", the cloud printing services on my printer were the very first thing that I shut down.

When it comes to metric vs imperial, what does it really matter? Most Americans know both (with some limitations to metric), and they don't really even know it.

7/32 is more difficult of a concept to understand than 6, but I know that when it comes to wrenches, sockets, or other tools, they're functionally the same. .40SW is the same as 10mm (in terms of actual diameter, not case length, operating pressure, powder loads, ETC). And then there's the age-old anecdote that our "archaic" system still landed us on the moon, which still holds true to this day.
It comes up all the time that "we should be like everyone else" despite the fact that our country exists because we didn't like to be like everyone else. We didn't like a tax implementation, so we took to war with a government who owned something like a third (fourth? I don't remember) of the landmass of the world.

[dalekphalm]

32 minutes ago, Skipple said:

Ah come on... 

 

Would you rather say 1 cup of flour?

 

Or 236ml of flour?

Or .25l of flour? 

As others have pointed out, ideally, neither.

 

When measuring dry ingredients, you want to use weight - grams (mostly - occasionally kg) in the case of Metric.

 

But the only reason why a lot of Canadian cookbooks would have "236ml" of flour is because they adapted a US recipe. Ideally it would be rounded and the ratios would compensate - so instead of 236ml it would be 250ml.

 

On the flip side, let's say a recipe called for 100ml of something... would you say 0.42 cups?

[Skipple]

29 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Looks pretty cool, but needs some restoration. Did you try polishing it?

I think it's just plastic lol

[Skipple]

5 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

On the flip side, let's say a recipe called for 100ml of something... would you say 0.42 cups?

I wouldn't. I would say 7 tablespoons.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Yep.  There’s a reason even the US tried twice.

It failed because people were to stubborn and/or lazy to adapt. If Imperial is so great, why doesn't the rest of the world use it instead of metric?

2 hours ago, Skipple said:

Ah come on... 

 

Would you rather say 1 cup of flour?

 

Or 236ml of flour?

Or .25l of flour? 

Recipes would simply adapt to even out the amounts. Dry volume measurements are far more convenient than using mass (technically, the metric system uses mass, not weight, although dry weight is close enough to mass to use for all but the most critical measurements). Using the metric system would be so much easier than having to remember how many teaspoons in a tablespoon, how many ounces, in a cup, how many cups in a pint, how many pints in a quart, how many quarts in a gallon, how many gallons in an acrefoot or cubic foot, etc.

2 hours ago, Skipple said:

*looks at thermostat in my 1920s american home..*

 

*shudders at how americancentric I am*

Those old Honeywells were like the Energizer Bunny. They just kept on going, going, going... They were inexpensive, easy to replace when they went eventually did go bad, were easily fixed, didn't need batteries, and could easily be modified for automatic changeover from heating to cooling. The shell around the rim was once plated steel (and I just gave my age away).

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, Skipple said:

I wouldn't. I would say 7 tablespoons.

And that’s somehow better than 100ml?

[Atmos]

On 12/26/2019 at 4:32 PM, zassou said:

TLDR: i know what thermostat is, but i dont know why it's such a thing in american homes.

-snip

 

Right so, very simply put it comes down to a few things.

1. Places in america can have extremely varried temperatures, thus the majority of houses have thermostats. In texas and arizon temps of 110f are pretty normal for summers, and temps down into -10f are also not too uncommon in places out east during winter. 

2. American culture values comfort and excess much more than other cultures.

3. American culture values ease of use and hands off kinds of systems more than most other cultures. AKA, we value having devices that can let us be lazy. 

4. Sometimes you need to adjust temperatures while you're not home, for your pets, kids, etc.

 

Just from my own perspective I live in a house built in the 50's, it lacks AC but does have heating, and it desperately needs AC because our summers will regularly sit at around 100+ for weeks at a time, with no escape, and I hardly live in a place with insane weather for america. I actually live in one of the most consistently pleasant places on earth. It is perpetually medium/low humidity and 60-75 for 80% of the year, 85-100 for 15% of the year, and cold and rainy for 5%

 

Everything below is a somewhat more elaborate break down of a few points. You can stop here if you just wanted an easy answer to the question.

 

We use the imperial system because in terms of the human experience it is simply more tangible. It was a system designed around humans, not around math, which is why it is so wonky for math, and why we use the metric system in science and math but not in every day use, like for example... You could say you're 1850mm tall, or 1.85m tall, or you could just say 6'1. Or, average highway speeds in the US are 65mph, same relatively applies to Europe but 65mph in Kph is now 110kph, and now you're into three digits for no reason at all. this all just reiterates that the imperial system was built around human experiences, and metric around math and science. One is good for one thing, the other is good for another thing. 

 

Your issues with american culture being now essentially the global culture online is just kind of unavoidable though. America is the largest market for online creators and services outside of china, and is still the place that offers the most to people who want to be free to create what ever they want without authoritarian ideologues holding them down. America has also been essentially the western global culture since the spread of our movies dominated the world and influenced every other country on earth bar few. Thats not even a bad thing at that. american culture and values are honestly for the most part quite good. The only thing that we lack at this point is adamantly accepted value of family and parents, which we've lost over the last 20 years as people raised their kids more and more with electronics and not themselves. 

[JZStudios]

5 hours ago, The1Dickens said:

Just to run off on this tangent a bit...

 

Maybe it's because I'm in California, but owning a BMW is not a rich person thing. Used ones can be had for under 20K, and on a 6-year payment plan (depending on credit), it turns out to probably 400-ish per month. Heck, even new entry level models start as low as 35K. Though, they do get up there in price, simply having a BMW isn't an indicator of wealth. Actually, you'd think the rich person was the one driving the Plymouth Duster with the 50-series tires in the back, blower poking out of the hood, and the custom built 440 big block with a nasty cam in it, rumbling along so loud you can feel the bark as it starts up. Or the frame-off, rotisserie restoration of the '64.5 Mustang A Code, factory reborn down to the paint drips to match how it would have looked rolling off the factory floor in 1964. Or the all original Model T complete with wooden wheels. It's the people with evidently plenty of disposable income, not the one who owns a single BMW as their daily driver.

I can probably snag a used one for ~$6k.

But when you don't have money it's stupid as hell to go in for $20k on a car when you can't fix your house so it's warm in the winter.

5 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

This.

 

Ive seen used BMWs on CL for 5 to 10 grand. My friends sister has a BMW and shes a CNA for a run down nursing home.

 

Owning a BMW in no way makes you rich.

I stick with my earlier statement. He said it makes them rich, not me. The problem is people will spend $10-20k on a car they can't afford and then complain about little money they have because their house is cold in winter and they can't afford a heater with a fancy thermostat.

 

5 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

It would be far  simpler to have one system instead of the dual system we are cursed with now. Metric is much simpler to work with than Imperial since all units are based on the meter and liter and multiples or divisions of ten instead of the insane nightmare of inches being divided by half, quarters, eighths, etc., a foot being divided by 12 inches, a mile being 5280 feet. Volume measurements are even worse and often aren't even consistent.

That doesn't improve the quality of anyone's life. It's not hard to use imperial, and every engineer I know is fluent in imperial and metric, along with decimal conversions and drill charts.

[JZStudios]

4 hours ago, Skipple said:

Ah come on... 

 

Would you rather say 1 cup of flour?

 

Or 236ml of flour?

Or .25l of flour? 

Technically speaking the better measurement system is by weight. And if you say a quarter cup of flour, what's the difference between that and saying quarter liter? I don't even like the metric system, but that's a weak argument.

 

4 hours ago, The1Dickens said:

Pretty sure that's for liquid measurements, too. You'd use grams for solids/powders. So it would likely call for 200 grams.

Agreed, but there's A LOT of recipes that call for cups/spoons of sugar, flour, etc. Most people would be safe to assume have measuring cups, not a scale.

 

3 hours ago, Skipple said:

I think it's just plastic lol

You can polish plastic. Mothers Headlight Renewer/Plastic Polish.

[The1Dickens]

13 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

I can probably snag a used one for ~$6k.

But when you don't have money it's stupid as hell to go in for $20k on a car when you can't fix your house so it's warm in the winter.

I meant 2-4 years old, CPO, with a warranty, as most people I know can't/won't do their own maintenance. Also, these people likely don't own where they live, and nobody is going to fix up a rental unit (that isn't the owner) because of the can of worms that opens up. And I expect people will buy a car before they buy a house, especially in California.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

3 hours ago, JZStudios said:

...That doesn't improve the quality of anyone's life. It's not hard to use imperial, and every engineer I know is fluent in imperial and metric, along with decimal conversions and drill charts.

The hell it wouldn't. People wouldn't need two sets of tools, scales, etc. With just one system, you wouldn't be dealing with conversions between the two. Also the math between sizes in metric is simple; just move the decimal. I'm fluent in both Imperial and metric but life would be a lot simpler if I had to deal with only metric. The only reason we have both here is because people are too lazy to learn metric (why, I don't know; it's cottonpickin' simple) and we are getting so many products from overseas where the metric system is used exclusively. It's long past time we joined the rest of the world. Granted, it will take decades to phase out the Imperial system but it has to start somewhere and it's long overdue!

[Blademaster91]

6 hours ago, The1Dickens said:

Just to run off on this tangent a bit...

 

Maybe it's because I'm in California, but owning a BMW is not a rich person thing. Used ones can be had for under 20K, and on a 6-year payment plan (depending on credit), it turns out to probably 400-ish per month. Heck, even new entry level models start as low as 35K. Though, they do get up there in price, simply having a BMW isn't an indicator of wealth. Actually, you'd think the rich person was the one driving the Plymouth Duster with the 50-series tires in the back, blower poking out of the hood, and the custom built 440 big block with a nasty cam in it, rumbling along so loud you can feel the bark as it starts up. Or the frame-off, rotisserie restoration of the '64.5 Mustang A Code, factory reborn down to the paint drips to match how it would have looked rolling off the factory floor in 1964. Or the all original Model T complete with wooden wheels. It's the people with evidently plenty of disposable income, not the one who owns a single BMW as their daily driver.

That seems like a California thing, but idk. I don't see the point in buying a used BMW for 20K, much less on a payment plan, you're already quite wealthy if you're buying a used BMW and you can keep up with the more expensive maintenance, as opposed to getting a brand new or used with low mileage "boring" Toyota or Honda for around the same price.

I'd rather have a classic car if I had the extra money to spend, but nothing with factory matched paint or a supercharger, just something upgraded from the original points ignition so it's reliable enough that it could be driven, paint can get extremely expensive and pristine matched paint would keep me from actually driving it.

[PlayStation 2]

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

That seems like a California thing, but idk. I don't see the point in buying a used BMW for 20K, much less on a payment plan, you're already quite wealthy if you're buying a used BMW and you can keep up with the more expensive maintenance, as opposed to getting a brand new or used with low mileage "boring" Toyota or Honda for around the same price.

I'd rather have a classic car if I had the extra money to spend, but nothing with factory matched paint or a supercharger, just something upgraded from the original points ignition so it's reliable enough that it could be driven, paint can get extremely expensive and pristine matched paint would keep me from actually driving it.

I don't think it's a California thing. I live in North Alabama and a very similar thing with Mercedes over here goes on, where a lot of people drive base-model GLA 250s and C-classes. Then again, "basic bitch" Chargers (base models) are very common over here, too, so seeing GLA 250s also isn't that ridiculous.

[handymanshandle]

9 hours ago, The1Dickens said:

Just to run off on this tangent a bit...

 

Maybe it's because I'm in California, but owning a BMW is not a rich person thing. Used ones can be had for under 20K, and on a 6-year payment plan (depending on credit), it turns out to probably 400-ish per month. Heck, even new entry level models start as low as 35K. Though, they do get up there in price, simply having a BMW isn't an indicator of wealth. Actually, you'd think the rich person was the one driving the Plymouth Duster with the 50-series tires in the back, blower poking out of the hood, and the custom built 440 big block with a nasty cam in it, rumbling along so loud you can feel the bark as it starts up. Or the frame-off, rotisserie restoration of the '64.5 Mustang A Code, factory reborn down to the paint drips to match how it would have looked rolling off the factory floor in 1964. Or the all original Model T complete with wooden wheels. It's the people with evidently plenty of disposable income, not the one who owns a single BMW as their daily driver.

well being able to afford to keep them on the road. That is the well off person thing lol

 

Although admittedly some generations and Model years are better than others so what's true for one year or generation of a model may not be true for the next. That being said, owning a car isn't cheap in general lol

My car likely shares some parts with a US model of car it's related to but because Saab doesn't exist anymore and while my model the 9-3 was a pretty good sales hit for Saab it still isn't a whole lot of cars so well let's just say there are somethings I've read on my car that are wayyyy more expensive than they are on a lot of regular cars.

[JZStudios]

3 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

The hell it wouldn't. People wouldn't need two sets of tools, scales, etc. With just one system, you wouldn't be dealing with conversions between the two.

That's a stupid reason. I spend a lot of time with engineers of various ilks, and have spent plenty of time in machine shops, garages, and workshops making all sorts of things and using one or the other (Or both, but not generally) is not difficult. I don't really give a rats ass that a Toyota is in metric and a Ford is imperial. It's not that hard to have 2 sets of wrenches or sets of sockets. You're still going to have 4 or 5 different sets of drills (That are all different sizes, Letter Drills, Number Drills, Metric, Imperial.) It's literally never a problem, and it's also not a problem to have a very common every day typical ass tape measure or straight edge that very easily and clearly has both. Anything digital like a decent (Or hell, even a cheap set) pair of calipers has a single button to switch from metric to imperial. We design and manufacture things in imperial. It's perfectly fine. If we send things to a European customer and they want it metric, we can drill and tap holes for metric, but everything else is still designed around imperial.

 

That's for people that use measurements every day, and it's literally exactly a non-issue. For your average every day person, it makes even less difference because I never see people just talking about converting these things. People will say an object is 6 feet away instead of 2 meters. No one is saying "Well that looks like 72 inches." and then someone else starts shitting their pants because they don't know math. Easy calculation is roughly 3 feet per meter. I've never come across a need where people need to find 7.34 miles in feet in every day life. In fact, most people don't even math, much less convert from imperial systems, or from metric to imperial or vice versa.

[1963SS]

The real reason for the Nest and other devices is......Because 'Merica…..that's why. We put a man on the moon using the length of the Kings nose, the length of his foot and the distance from his nose to the tip of his finger. It just works for us. At one point in our history most of us were from Yurp and other countries over there yet we use our measuring system. My Nest has saved me about 20 percent of my heating bills. My work hours vary so a programmable T-stat isn't really feasible for me. I just jump on my phone and tell the house to get warm for me. I'm old and for many years I had to heat my house with coal in a potbelly stove in the middle of the house.. I live in Appalachia and it's all we had. I killed pigs, cows, chickens squirrels, rabbits and deer. We grew our own corn, tomatoes, beans and then we canned it to use in the winter. We still do that around here.

 

Yes, we're spoiled but most of us are not lazy. We're the most progressive and productive country in the history of the world. Hell, during World War 2 we sold or gave away most of everything that our allies were using. We could build it faster than Germany and Japan could blow it up. We built almost 3000 Liberty ships (big Sucker cargo ships) in 4 years. We were launching three ships every two days. Germany sinks 25 in a month and we'll build 45 more. That's hard to overcome.  Wretched excess. It's in our DNA. I've been around for some 73 years and as an engineer I feel very comfortable with the Metric system but I still prefer to use a cup of flour and a 1/2 cup of milk. 2-4-6-8, I don't want to metricate. We don't have to and no one can make us.

 

As a lifelong sailor I could argue that a Nautical mile is the best way to judge distance. One minute of arc on Earth is one nautical mile. If you'r sailing one nautical mile per hour you are travelling at one knot. Easy Peasy.

 

And what the Heck is this meter or metre stuff. the distance light travels in 1/3000,000,000 seconds, give or take a bit. Who is going to measure that? My stopwatch struggles with hundredths of a second and I can't find where the end of the light is. My eyes must be getting old..

 

Every nation has their little quirks and idiosyncrasies. Please allow us to have ours also. We know that pickup trucks have very bad mileage and they're the #1 selling vehicle in 'Merica. No logic, just excess. It's what we do.  There is no right and wrong. It's just what is right or wrong FOR YOU. 

 

Have a wonderful time in your country but if you ever want to cool down it the summer or warm up when it's cold just hop a plane and come rent an apartment a camper or a motorhome. They're air conditioned. My motorhome has an air conditioner in the cab and two on the roof. I could loan you one. We'll take care of you. It's what we do......for better or worse, but that's another story.

[maartendc]

tech is 'americentrist' as you call it, because most big tech companies are based in the USA.

 

Americans have AC because they live in places that are too hot / cold to be comfortable.

 

Nest supposedly saves you money because people arent smart enough to turn off their heater when leaving the house or going to bed. Also it looks and feels fancy and fun.

 

Americans use the Imperial system because that is what they are used to. And they (think they) are #1, so why change?

 

There, I solved your problems for you.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

7 hours ago, JZStudios said:

That's a stupid reason. I spend a lot of time with engineers of various ilks, and have spent plenty of time in machine shops, garages, and workshops making all sorts of things and using one or the other (Or both, but not generally) is not difficult. I don't really give a rats ass that a Toyota is in metric and a Ford is imperial. It's not that hard to have 2 sets of wrenches or sets of sockets. You're still going to have 4 or 5 different sets of drills (That are all different sizes, Letter Drills, Number Drills, Metric, Imperial.) It's literally never a problem, and it's also not a problem to have a very common every day typical ass tape measure or straight edge that very easily and clearly has both. Anything digital like a decent (Or hell, even a cheap set) pair of calipers has a single button to switch from metric to imperial. We design and manufacture things in imperial. It's perfectly fine. If we send things to a European customer and they want it metric, we can drill and tap holes for metric, but everything else is still designed around imperial.

 

That's for people that use measurements every day, and it's literally exactly a non-issue. For your average every day person, it makes even less difference because I never see people just talking about converting these things. People will say an object is 6 feet away instead of 2 meters. No one is saying "Well that looks like 72 inches." and then someone else starts shitting their pants because they don't know math. Easy calculation is roughly 3 feet per meter. I've never come across a need where people need to find 7.34 miles in feet in every day life. In fact, most people don't even math, much less convert from imperial systems, or from metric to imperial or vice versa.

The only reason we have to have two sets of tools (and that gets expensive in a hurry) and multiple kinds of drill bits (and I have them all; talk about expensive) is people are too stubborn, complacent (like you), and/or resistant to change to allow the metric system to replace the Imperial system. You may used to dealing with different systems (heck, so am I) but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

4 hours ago, maartendc said:

...Americans use the Imperial system because that is what they are used to. And they (think they) are #1, so why change?...

I've already explained several times why we should change. This is just another example of why people here resist the change which is not a good one. And I agree with the comment of Americans thinking they are #1. We are not, otherwise everyone would be using the Imperial system. The world is becoming less dependent on us, which hurts us in export trade, if only because other countries do not want to have to use two systems (nor should they have to). We have become dependent on foreign imports because our industry and R&D have lagged behind the rest of the world, again due to complacency and resistance to change.

[Skipple]

1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

We are not, otherwise everyone would be using the Imperial system. The world is becoming less dependent on us, which hurts us in export trade, if only because other countries do not want to have to use two systems (nor should they have to

What in the WORLD are you talking about? 

 

The US hasn't manufacturered products like that since the 40s/50s. The only thing remotely close to what you are talking about is the auto industry which we lost to Asia due to long term viability of the product.

 

The US largest exports are airplanes, oil and LNG. How in the world do any of those things have anything to do with resistance to changing completely to the metric system?

 

What do you think the US is producing?

 

It's we don't have an manufacturing industry because of a system of measurements. It's because Asia pays labor pennies on the american dollar.

[Bombastinator]

This whole thread a long while ago became a game of obfusticated political commentary which is started with an unattributed quote by a right wing commentator and then goes on to bash whatever.  
 

I would say just about every comment in this entire thread beginning with an insult, such as the one above, is one such. “What in the world are you talking about?” Is rush Limbaugh for example.  It goes all the way back to the beginning of the thread though.  Dog whistles et al.

[Skipple]

25 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I would say just about every comment in this entire thread beginning with an insult, such as the one above, is one such. “What in the world are you talking about?” Is rush Limbaugh for example.

Or the comment I was quoting made absolutely no sense so I attempted to refute it. 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

30 minutes ago, Skipple said:

What in the WORLD are you talking about? 

 

The US hasn't manufacturered products like that since the 40s/50s. The only thing remotely close to what you are talking about is the auto industry which we lost to Asia due to long term viability of the product.

 

The US largest exports are airplanes, oil and LNG. How in the world do any of those things have anything to do with resistance to changing completely to the metric system?

 

What do you think the US is producing?

 

It's we don't have an manufacturing industry because of a system of measurements. It's because Asia pays labor pennies on the american dollar.

Why do you think we haven't been manufacturing as much? Asia may be paying pennies on the dollar but Europe seems to be doing fine without being dependent on us while paying living wages (something we are having more and more trouble doing). We are lagging simply because we are so resistant to change, too cheap and/or apathetic to not buy products made with what is essentially slave labor (all though not all cheaper overseas labor is due to underpaying them), etc. Reluctance to ditching the Imperial system is but one reason of many, all stemming from our resistance to changing to keep up with the rest of the world.

 

1 minute ago, Skipple said:

Or the comment I was quoting made absolutely no sense so I attempted to refute it. 

Or you refuse to open your mind to ideas other than  the outdated ones you stubbornly cling to. All your responses (responces to keep you folks on the east side of the pond happy  ) so far have only reinforced what I have been saying about why we should ditch the Imperial system. Open your eyes to what is happening in the entire world, not just you tiny slice of it.

[Bombastinator]

18 minutes ago, Skipple said:

Or the comment I was quoting made absolutely no sense so I attempted to refute it. 

That’s what I mean by obfusticated.  All of them “could be”. That they’re not could all be coincidence.

[PlayStation 2]

this whole thread is a bad trip on cough medicine