WTF is nest? a rant about americentrism in tech and internet in general

[Mr.Meerkat]

On 12/27/2019 at 1:52 AM, wasab said:

Americans invented internet

But was first implemented (to what we know it as now) by ze Brits  

First to demonstrate packet switching: A Brit

Nationality of the person who invented the "world wide web": Oh look, another British person

 

Maybe hold your horses before you start chanting "US bestest!"  

[JZStudios]

3 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

The only reason we have to have two sets of tools (and that gets expensive in a hurry) and multiple kinds of drill bits (and I have them all; talk about expensive) is people are too stubborn, complacent (like you), and/or resistant to change to allow the metric system to replace the Imperial system. You may used to dealing with different systems (heck, so am I) but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Incorrect as all hell.

Regardless of whether or not there's only one measurement system there's not a single shop on the planet that only has one set of tools. Hell, there's only 2 or 3 screwdrivers you need for 90% of applications, but there's not a single shop on the planet that only has 3 screwdrivers.

As to drill bits, that's also a dumb argument. I don't know what you do but it sure doesn't sound like engineering and machining or manufacturing. A 4-40 screw for example is an imperial bolt, but a pilot drill for the tap is a 43. Not to mention the absolute need for all of the drill sizes, whether or not you're on a single measurement system. Sure, you can convert them to metric but they aren't going to be the nice round numbers all the dum dums seem to love so much.

You are providing literal non-reasons to switch and pretending like it'll make life easier, when actually it'll be exactly the same at best after all the confusion. I'm in the boat that it's best to have both units and tools because there's a lot more fine grades in imperial than there are in metric with only going primarily full or half steps, and half steps are uncommon.

3 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I've already explained several times why we should change. This is just another example of why people here resist the change which is not a good one. And I agree with the comment of Americans thinking they are #1. We are not, otherwise everyone would be using the Imperial system. The world is becoming less dependent on us, which hurts us in export trade, if only because other countries do not want to have to use two systems (nor should they have to). We have become dependent on foreign imports because our industry and R&D have lagged behind the rest of the world, again due to complacency and resistance to change.

You literally haven't other than saying it's easier to convert and tool costs, both of which are non issues. You haven't provided a single solid reason other than your "beliefs" that it'll magically make peoples lives easier.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Why do you think we haven't been manufacturing as much? Asia may be paying pennies on the dollar but Europe seems to be doing fine without being dependent on us while paying living wages (something we are having more and more trouble doing). We are lagging simply because we are so resistant to change, too cheap and/or apathetic to not buy products made with what is essentially slave labor (all though not all cheaper overseas labor is due to underpaying them), etc. Reluctance to ditching the Imperial system is but one reason of many, all stemming from our resistance to changing to keep up with the rest of the world.

Oh, right. We switch to metric and suddenly Chevy and GM start making good cars again. I see your logic. It'll also make manufacturing and wages literal pennies and sweatshops.

[RonnieOP]

4 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

This whole thread a long while ago became a game of obfusticated political commentary which is started with an unattributed quote by a right wing commentator and then goes on to bash whatever.  
 

I would say just about every comment in this entire thread beginning with an insult, such as the one above, is one such. “What in the world are you talking about?” Is rush Limbaugh for example.  It goes all the way back to the beginning of the thread though.  Dog whistles et al.

Sorry but this whole statement is asinine.

 

"What in the world are you talking about?" Is not an insult in any sense. And how in the world you would contribute such a common phrase to someone like Rush literally makes zero sense at all. People have used that phrase long before Rush was even born and as someone whos listened to rush on and off for close to 20 years thats not even something i remember him constantly using to the extent it would be linked to him.

 

Outside of OPs total xenophobic nonsense i think most people here are having a pretty civil and constructive discussion even when they are not on the same page.

[RonnieOP]

4 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Why do you think we haven't been manufacturing as much? Asia may be paying pennies on the dollar but Europe seems to be doing fine without being dependent on us while paying living wages (something we are having more and more trouble doing). We are lagging simply because we are so resistant to change, too cheap and/or apathetic to not buy products made with what is essentially slave labor (all though not all cheaper overseas labor is due to underpaying them), etc. Reluctance to ditching the Imperial system is but one reason of many, all stemming from our resistance to changing to keep up with the rest of the world.

 

Or you refuse to open your mind to ideas other than  the outdated ones you stubbornly cling to. All your responses (responces to keep you folks on the east side of the pond happy  ) so far have only reinforced what I have been saying about why we should ditch the Imperial system. Open your eyes to what is happening in the entire world, not just you tiny slice of it.

Im so confused by what you are trying to get at here.

 

We could magically switch to metric tomorrow and thats not going to solve any of the issues you brought up.

 

Saving money by only having to buy metric tools isnt going to have a huge impact on anyones business. And its not going to bring certain productions back to America.

 

Theres a reason car companies are going to mexico...and its because cheap labor. Not because of metric.

[Bombastinator]

25 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Im so confused by what you are trying to get at here.

 

We could magically switch to metric tomorrow and thats not going to solve any of the issues you brought up.

 

Saving money by only having to buy metric tools isnt going to have a huge impact on anyones business. And its not going to bring certain productions back to America.

 

Theres a reason car companies are going to mexico...and its because cheap labor. Not because of metric.

Making America go metric has been tried and it has failed.  Twice.  My memory of the original reason for the second attempt used all those arguments but it wasn’t the big one.  The big one was it made American products more exportable.  There were companies surviving only because cheaper American goods were sized wrong.  Now the reverse is more true I suspect.

The issue is somewhat academic, because it’s not possible.  Might it be better for america? Sure.  Let’s take that one off the table and just say yes.  America would gain an advantage over its current situation.  It still doesn’t matter. A change is going to be either very painful or take place over a very long length of time.  The way the British are doing it.  The British have a governmental system that can actually make long term legislation like that stick.  The US doesn't.  We lose almost complete continuity every 8 years.

[spartaman64]

its nice to be able to turn off the ac/heating when you leave and then turn it on before you go back to save energy and so its not too hot/cold but yeah thats not enough for me to get a nest

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

its nice to be able to turn off the ac/heating when you leave and then turn it on before you go back to save energy and so its not too hot/cold but yeah thats not enough for me to get a nest

That's a basic feature of all but the most bottom level thermostats. Most will allow you to set a simple schedule (eg: 7:30 AM set temp to 21C, 8:30 AM set temp to 15C, 4:30 PM set temp to 21C, 10:30 PM set temp to 15C - etc). Many will allow you to set that for each day of the week (allowing you to set different schedules depending on the day of the week).

 

These would have historically been "Smart" thermostats (or rather, probably "Programmable") - but now that we have IoT/connected devices with much more capable and flexible programming and processing power, the term "Smart" has changed (see below).

 

Some will even have more advanced scheduling features, but those are usually getting into the "Smart" (as we think of the term in 2019) Thermostats, like the Nest.

[spartaman64]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

That's a basic feature of all but the most bottom level thermostats. Most will allow you to set a simple schedule (eg: 7:30 AM set temp to 21C, 8:30 AM set temp to 15C, 4:30 PM set temp to 21C, 10:30 PM set temp to 15C - etc). Many will allow you to set that for each day of the week (allowing you to set different schedules depending on the day of the week).

 

These would have historically been "Smart" thermostats (or rather, probably "Programmable") - but now that we have IoT/connected devices with much more capable and flexible programming and processing power, the term "Smart" has changed (see below).

 

Some will even have more advanced scheduling features, but those are usually getting into the "Smart" (as we think of the term in 2019) Thermostats, like the Nest.

oh, my thermostat doesnt do that

[dalekphalm]

11 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

oh, my thermostat doesnt do that

What does yours have? A simple temperature target? Just on/off?

[spartaman64]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

What does yours have? A simple temperature target? Just on/off?

yep 

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

yep 

Older home I assume? Anything newer than the 80's would almost certainly just come with a programmable thermostat. A pretty basic Honeywell programmable thermostat is only like $25. You might want to consider just doing the upgrade yourself - it's fairly straight forward, and usually the wires are colour coded (though you'll want to verify the wires based on the existing wiring into your current thermostat):

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywell-5-2-Day-Programmable-Thermostat-with-Backlight-RTH2300B/203539496

[spartaman64]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

Older home I assume? Anything newer than the 80's would almost certainly just come with a programmable thermostat. A pretty basic Honeywell programmable thermostat is only like $25. You might want to consider just doing the upgrade yourself - it's fairly straight forward, and usually the wires are colour coded (though you'll want to verify the wires based on the existing wiring into your current thermostat):

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywell-5-2-Day-Programmable-Thermostat-with-Backlight-RTH2300B/203539496

yep my house is pretty old and ill consider it

[zassou]

On 12/28/2019 at 3:50 AM, The1Dickens said:

Just to run off on this tangent a bit...

 

Maybe it's because I'm in California, but owning a BMW is not a rich person thing. Used ones can be had for under 20K, and on a 6-year payment plan (depending on credit), it turns out to probably 400-ish per month. Heck, even new entry level models start as low as 35K. Though, they do get up there in price, simply having a BMW isn't an indicator of wealth. Actually, you'd think the rich person was the one driving the Plymouth Duster with the 50-series tires in the back, blower poking out of the hood, and the custom built 440 big block with a nasty cam in it, rumbling along so loud you can feel the bark as it starts up. Or the frame-off, rotisserie restoration of the '64.5 Mustang A Code, factory reborn down to the paint drips to match how it would have looked rolling off the factory floor in 1964. Or the all original Model T complete with wooden wheels. It's the people with evidently plenty of disposable income, not the one who owns a single BMW as their daily driver.

yeah, i forgot to put it.

 

owning a big engine car is already a luxury here. most people buy small city cars that come with chainsaw motors with turbos. even vw is considered an upmarket brand, most cars are renault branded nissan, skoda (all plastic vw) and some ford and gm here and there. the gov tax cars based on the engine size, <1.5L is 10% i guess, above than is +20% per tier (i forgot how the tier thing works), up to a 70% for passenger vehicle. so a ford raptor truck could (not as much, but can be) cost as much as a bentley in the other countries, if you have the resource, you can register your truck as commercial vehicle, but yeah. so when bimmer people complaining renovation costs, they mean it. a mid spec vw golf costs about 20k usd here, with ~80% of the car and the rest is tax.

 

housing is taxed based on tiers too. for example, in apartments, the standard is 40m2 per person per home. so if you live in a family of 4 in a 100m2 apartment home, you pay less tax than single who live in a "studio" home with an area of 50m2. this thing is very much outdated and not considering other amenities like elevator access, ultilities (gas, heat, internet), number of the storeys, etc. the baseline tax is 15% (actual value), with a "second home tax", of which is a healthy 20% extra for your each extra homes, most people rather rent homes instead of buying, even the price is going down since 2016, some even rent their home from themselves.

 

the other invisible cost is human labour, renovating a floor requires specialised worker that often quite hard to come by. it's a total seller's market, those who willing to work often flock to the capital and it's foreign workers to fill the blank of small cities. they are always high in demand and often travel in vans, so unless you're willing to diy it and risk of violating a bunch if not all building codes, you have to pay.

 

what is not expensive though is gas and electricity. it really bubbled 2 years ago, i can hear the server fans humming every time im out of the town. but when it crashed they left in a hurry, all we got is a bunch of useless chips with no resell value, only to be shipped out to china and scrapped.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

4 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Im so confused by what you are trying to get at here.

 

We could magically switch to metric tomorrow and thats not going to solve any of the issues you brought up.

 

Saving money by only having to buy metric tools isnt going to have a huge impact on anyones business. And its not going to bring certain productions back to America.

 

Theres a reason car companies are going to mexico...and its because cheap labor. Not because of metric.

You aren't paying attention. I never said issues would be fixed tomorrow. I said it would take decades.

 

Many industries have moved manufacturing to Mexico and, in all but a few exceptions, quality has taken a hit. Because of that, some companies have been moving manufacturing back to the SSA.

[RonnieOP]

Just now, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You aren't paying attention. I never said issues would be fixed tomorrow. I said it would take decades.

 

Many industries have moved manufacturing to Mexico and, in all but a few exceptions, quality has taken a hit. Because of that, some companies have been moving manufacturing back to the SSA.

that has nothing to do with metric though....

 

using a SAE wrench or a metric wrench doesnt mean anything when it comes to quality and cost of productions. Going from a 1/2 bolt to a 12mm bolt isnt going to do anything.

 

Yes many industries have moved production to mexico and it has nothing to do with unit of measurement. it has to do with cost of labor. they did look at other countries and say "hmm they use metric and not sae....we should build a plant there" they dont care what unit of measurement your tool uses. just how much it costs them in labor and materials. And metirc sockets arent cheaper then sae.

 

Your making 0 sense here.

 

[Bombastinator]

48 minutes ago, zassou said:

yeah, i forgot to put it.

 

owning a big engine car is already a luxury here. most people buy small city cars that come with chainsaw motors with turbos. even vw is considered an upmarket brand, most cars are renault branded nissan, skoda (all plastic vw) and some ford and gm here and there. the gov tax cars based on the engine size, <1.5L is 10% i guess, above than is +20% per tier (i forgot how the tier thing works), up to a 70% for passenger vehicle. so a ford raptor truck could (not as much, but can be) cost as much as a bentley in the other countries, if you have the resource, you can register your truck as commercial vehicle, but yeah. so when bimmer people complaining renovation costs, they mean it. a mid spec vw golf costs about 20k usd here, with ~80% of the car and the rest is tax.

 

housing is taxed based on tiers too. for example, in apartments, the standard is 40m2 per person per home. so if you live in a family of 4 in a 100m2 apartment home, you pay less tax than single who live in a "studio" home with an area of 50m2. this thing is very much outdated and not considering other amenities like elevator access, ultilities (gas, heat, internet), number of the storeys, etc. the baseline tax is 15% (actual value), with a "second home tax", of which is a healthy 20% extra for your each extra homes, most people rather rent homes instead of buying, even the price is going down since 2016, some even rent their home from themselves.

 

the other invisible cost is human labour, renovating a floor requires specialised worker that often quite hard to come by. it's a total seller's market, those who willing to work often flock to the capital and it's foreign workers to fill the blank of small cities. they are always high in demand and often travel in vans, so unless you're willing to diy it and risk of violating a bunch if not all building codes, you have to pay.

 

what is not expensive though is gas and electricity. it really bubbled 2 years ago, i can hear the server fans humming every time im out of the town. but when it crashed they left in a hurry, all we got is a bunch of useless chips with no resell value, only to be shipped out to china and scrapped.

Small engine tax is different and explains smaller cars. Buildings are taxed on a different scale, but it’s there. They value the property and tax on that instead of raw square footage.  One of my problems is ive got a small apartment building in a residential neighborhood I live in.  The city keeps trying to tax me as a large house instead of a tiny apartment building and drastically overvaluing my property because of it.  The think my building is worth almost 40% more than it is.  I can’t sell the building for anywhere near what they claim the value is.  It’s not the same kind of building.  there’s this assumption that the city always undervalues property for tax purposes.  Doesn’t always happen.
 

Skoda never made it to America but you’ve more or less described average American city life right down to the tradesmen.  I’ve got a problem with my foundation that I’m required to have fixed and I’ve been dealing with it since no shit, may.  Almost all of that has been spent trying to find and then waiting on tradesmen.  It’s going to cost a years income to fix, and might leave me homeless.  It 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

7 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Incorrect as all hell.

Regardless of whether or not there's only one measurement system there's not a single shop on the planet that only has one set of tools. Hell, there's only 2 or 3 screwdrivers you need for 90% of applications, but there's not a single shop on the planet that only has 3 screwdrivers.

As to drill bits, that's also a dumb argument. I don't know what you do but it sure doesn't sound like engineering and machining or manufacturing. A 4-40 screw for example is an imperial bolt, but a pilot drill for the tap is a 43. Not to mention the absolute need for all of the drill sizes, whether or not you're on a single measurement system. Sure, you can convert them to metric but they aren't going to be the nice round numbers all the dum dums seem to love so much.

You are providing literal non-reasons to switch and pretending like it'll make life easier, when actually it'll be exactly the same at best after all the confusion. I'm in the boat that it's best to have both units and tools because there's a lot more fine grades in imperial than there are in metric with only going primarily full or half steps, and half steps are uncommon.

You literally haven't other than saying it's easier to convert and tool costs, both of which are non issues. You haven't provided a single solid reason other than your "beliefs" that it'll magically make peoples lives easier.

 

Oh, right. We switch to metric and suddenly Chevy and GM start making good cars again. I see your logic. It'll also make manufacturing and wages literal pennies and sweatshops.

And another one who isn't paying attention. Everything you just said has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I'm tired of explaining things that a 10 year old would understand.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

18 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

that has nothing to do with metric though....

 

using a SAE wrench or a metric wrench doesnt mean anything when it comes to quality and cost of productions. Going from a 1/2 bolt to a 12mm bolt isnt going to do anything.

 

Yes many industries have moved production to mexico and it has nothing to do with unit of measurement. it has to do with cost of labor. they did look at other countries and say "hmm they use metric and not sae....we should build a plant there" they dont care what unit of measurement your tool uses. just how much it costs them in labor and materials. And metirc sockets arent cheaper then sae.

 

Your making 0 sense here.

 

Is English your first language?

[Spotty]

- Thread locked -

Whatever this thread was has run its course. In future if you wish to ask a question leave the anti-American (or anti-any-country) sentiment out of it.