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Gamefreak lies about not reusing models in pokemon sword and shield (spoilers)

spartaman64
1 hour ago, comander said:

Let's do some basic math. 

You have 800 pokemon. 
There are then 64000 combinations you could have in battle. 
There are 100 levels...
There are then 640,000,000 combinations. 

Each pokemon can learn an average of 100 moves...

There are then 6,400,000,000,000 combinations. For 1v1 battles. This doesn't include 1v6; 3v3, etc. 
It also doesn't account for doubles battles, triples, reverse battles, gimmicks like dynamax, megaevolution or special moves... 


Honestly, it's a HUGE HUGE mess to QA, even with a lot of automation tools. 

Cutting to a smaller size can result in a MUCH MUCH more polished experience. 

This includes in-game and competitive. 

 

 

             

 

        

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5 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

 

Does the quality of the assets or availability of Pokemon really change how the actual game will play?

 

Geez, how did we survive up until now without 3D models and 800+ Pokemon?

i dont really care about the animations but i care about the pokemon. this is the first pokemon game where i cant catch them all. if it was for them to make a better quality game then ill still be sad but at least theres a good reason for it but if it was for them to cut corners then i dont even know what to say

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1 hour ago, comander said:

Let's do some basic math. 

You have 800 pokemon. 
There are then 64000 combinations you could have in battle. 
There are 100 levels...
There are then 640,000,000 combinations. 

Each pokemon can learn an average of 100 moves...

There are then 6,400,000,000,000 combinations. For 1v1 battles. This doesn't include 1v6; 3v3, etc. 
It also doesn't account for doubles battles, triples, reverse battles, gimmicks like dynamax, megaevolution or special moves... 


Honestly, it's a HUGE HUGE mess to QA, even with a lot of automation tools. 

Cutting to a smaller size can result in a MUCH MUCH more polished experience. 

This includes in-game and competitive. 

levels dont really have an affect on the animation afaik and all other past games just have a generic hurt animation for the pokemon taking the hit and generic up into the air etc animations and from the animations i saw they work in this way also but i guess we wont really know until the game releases. 

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4 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

i dont really care about the animations but i care about the pokemon. this is the first pokemon game where i cant catch them all.

You couldn't catch them all anyway without transferring various Pokemon over from other games. If I can't catch them all with just the games in that generation, it's a moot point. Besides they dropped that slogan years ago.

 

6 minutes ago, CyanideInsanity said:

We survived pretty well actually, considering I don't believe in the past gf said one thing and then seemingly did the opposite of what they said. Am I correct in assuming you believe I'm in outrage camp?

I misclicked on you.

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1 minute ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

You couldn't catch them all anyway without transferring various Pokemon over from other games. If I can't catch them all with just the games in that generation, it's a moot point. Besides they dropped that slogan years ago.

 

I misclicked on you.

I see. Sorry but thats a 50 DKP Minus.

Spoiler

just memeing if you don't know it

 

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1 minute ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

You couldn't catch them all anyway without transferring various Pokemon over from other games. If I can't catch them all with just the games in that generation, it's a moot point. Besides they dropped that slogan years ago.

 

I misclicked on you.

GTS and i do have a lot of the other games

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10 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

GTS and i do have a lot of the other games

I mean, I don't see what's so fun about transferring Pokemon back and forth just to get an in-game certificate that says "congratulations."

 

But if you do, more power to you.

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1 minute ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I mean, I don't see what's so fun about transferring Pokemon back and forth just to get an in-game certificate that says "congratulations."

That's not.

 

But having a team of 6 different legendaries is.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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11 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I mean, I don't see what's so fun about transferring Pokemon back and forth just to get an in-game certificate that says "congratulations."

 

But if you do, more power to you.

There is more than just being able to use them. If diamond and pearl remakes are next, there's a good chance they won't be compatible at all, or just severely limited. This would be the first case of same generation games having huge discrepancies between them. Previously only new forms, moves, or items would restricted, but with like half the sinnoh-dex not existing they'll probably cut all connectivity outside of gts trading game applicable pokemon at best.

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6 minutes ago, CyanideInsanity said:

There is more than just being able to use them. If diamond and pearl remakes are next, there's a good chance they won't be compatible at all, or just severely limited. This would be the first case of same generation games having huge discrepancies between them. Previously only new forms, moves, or items would restricted, but with like half the sinnoh-dex not existing they'll probably cut all connectivity outside of gts trading game applicable pokemon at best.

This is the first time they've done it and it's not like patches don't exist.

 

I mean honestly, when you have 1000+ Pokemon (supposedly), something's going to have to give at some point when your company doesn't have a lot of people to begin with. Why doesn't GameFreak hire more people or hand the torch to someone else? I dunno. But this is what they have to work with.

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14 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Why doesn't GameFreak hire more people or hand the torch to someone else? I dunno. But this is what they have to work with.

If Sword and Shield is a critical flop I suspect that will happen... But I don't expect that.

It has been said in an interview that at GameFreak they have 2 teams (I don't remember if they were like an A-team and B-team, but I believe that was implied). One team works on Pokemon, the other one on their upcoming game (Town).

 

The budget figures for Pokemon are also unclear, but it supposedly is a lot less than other triple-A games have for a budget. (it's 'only' in the 10's of millions of dollars allegedly).

 

It seems like a deliberate choice to limit the development of Pokemon; not a matter of money or people.

"We're all in this together, might as well be friends" Tom, Toonami.

 

mini eLiXiVy: my open source 65% mechanical PCB, a build log, PCB anatomy and discussing open source licenses: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1366493-elixivy-a-65-mechanical-keyboard-build-log-pcb-anatomy-and-how-i-open-sourced-this-project/

 

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Just now, Mira Yurizaki said:

Why doesn't GameFreak hire more people or hand the torch to someone else?

 

About 27 minutes in, he talks about the breakdown of profit in the Pokemon franchise, the games aren't the huge sellers, but because estimated dev cost is low, the profit margin is large. They also have other games they make, so I'd imagine it's a combination of they don't think it'll be benefitial in the long run and they're turning some of that profit into the budget for games outside of the Pokemon franchise.

 

And even if they did hire more people, would they have had enough time to train them up and release a better product on a time table that affects the entire franchise?

 

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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1 minute ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

This is the first time they've done it and it's not like patches don't exist.

 

I mean honestly, when you have 1000+ Pokemon (supposedly), something's going to have to give at some point when your company doesn't have a lot of people to begin with. Why doesn't GameFreak hire more people or hand the torch to someone else? I dunno. But this is what they have to work with.

They could add them in an update, but why do that when you could encourage people to by both? So far the only thing on that we have is basically "no comment". https://nintendoeverything.com/game-freak-says-no-decision-made-about-adding-pokemon-not-in-galar-pokedex-to-sword-shield-with-updates/

 

Perhaps its a bit dramatic, but the way I feel is about this is basically game freak can't compete with pokemon as mobile titles, and the mobile games will continue to bring in tons of money as mobile games do. And judging by how mario kart tour is, I don't think nintendo is averse to jumping on the mobile hypetrain. After all, it prints money.

 

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26 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

And even if they did hire more people, would they have had enough time to train them up and release a better product on a time table that affects the entire franchise?

According to the Mythical Man Month, no, not really.

 

7 minutes ago, CyanideInsanity said:

Perhaps its a bit dramatic, but the way I feel is about this is basically game freak can't compete with pokemon as mobile titles, and the mobile games will continue to bring in tons of money as mobile games do. And judging by how mario kart tour is, I don't think nintendo is averse to jumping on the mobile hypetrain. After all, it prints money.

But this isn't really a contest about making money. Besides, Game Freak owns 1/3 of the Pokemon IP, so anything Pokemon related gets funneled back to them at some point. It's just that Nintendo is very offhands with them (GameFreak is technically a third party company) and Game Freak seems to prefer remaining to be a smaller company.

 

Also here's another point, GameFreak wasn't responsible for the modeling of Pokemon, that credit goes to another 1/3 stakeholder of the Pokemon IP, Creatures, Inc. And from the looks of things, they have been since Pokemon first went 3D on Pokemon Stadium

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1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

im upset not because i hate gamefreak or pokemon quite the opposite. i love pokemon and want it to succeed and seeing gamefreak make these questionable decisions that might make the new pokemon into a bad game makes me upset

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/a7rrmy/a_letter_to_blizzard_entertainment/

 

Sort of like what this guy feels for blizzard except its nintendo/gamefreak in my case PS and i dont like the broncos

So whats your issue with the game?

 

Just that it doesnt have every single pokemon?

 

Theres too damn many pokemon now anyway imo. If they have a wide variety from every generation that should be good enough. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RonnieOP said:

So whats your issue with the game?

 

Just that it doesnt have every single pokemon?

 

Theres too damn many pokemon now anyway imo. If they have a wide variety from every generation that should be good enough. 

 

 

it doesnt have some of the pokemon that i like and their reason for doing it seems like bs

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3 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

This is a big deal... why?

Gran Turismo 6 was using models dating back to 2001 when it came out. It’s a known fact that Valve reuses models from game to game. Dunno why it’s such a big deal here.

Agree, and it's not as though the models used for the 3DS were exactly low quality. The model for Primarina hits about 10k polygons which is quite decent (the 3DS pushes polys pretty well, fillrate on the other hand...) I was under the expectation the models made were for the long haul.

 

Given the slow paced and grindy nature of Pokemon games in general, I feel focus should be placed on fast performance and short loading times over overly complex models. The game engine certainly shouldn't be adding to the grind.

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

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1 hour ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

"We're on a time crunch and we don't have to do a half-assed job" is a BS excuse?

they never said they were in a time crunch they said they wanted to do all new models and quality animations. the new models excuse is bs and the animations we will have to see on release if the person had battle animations turned off. and they managed in the past so why do they need to throw out 55% of the pokemon now

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18 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

According to the Mythical Man Month, no, not really.

 

But this isn't really a contest about making money. Besides, Game Freak owns 1/3 of the Pokemon IP, so anything Pokemon related gets funneled back to them at some point. It's just that Nintendo is very offhands with them (GameFreak is technically a third party company) and Game Freak seems to prefer remaining to be a smaller company.

 

Also here's another point, GameFreak wasn't responsible for the modeling of Pokemon, that credit goes to another 1/3 stakeholder of the Pokemon IP, Creatures, Inc. And from the looks of things, they have been since Pokemon first went 3D on Pokemon Stadium

Sure, but my issue is with the way things are going I don't see future games being what I'd like to see. IMO its all downhill from here. And on the models, yeah I forgot about that, but its semantics to the point at hand. As I first said, allegedly there was talk of new models, and then animations quality being the reason for cutting pokemon, which is a very hard sell with whats been shown.

 

Its the same as how bethesda's recent games have changed my opinion on their future titles. I don't feel TeS 6 will be a particularly great game, and not because of monetization. Starfield could fare a little better as its a new IP rather than a new game in an existing series, but even them I'm skeptical.

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1 minute ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Agree, and it's not as though the models used for the 3DS were exactly low quality. The model for Primarina hits about 10k polygons which is quite decent (the 3DS pushes polys pretty well, fillrate on the other hand...) I was under the expectation the models made were for the long haul.

And in the given context, 10 grand in the polygon department for most Pokemon models is pretty good. They don't need massive detail at all, and anything that could use smoothing off could probably be done with tessellation. 

Again with the Gran Turismo comparison, the Premium cars in GT5 and 6 have polygon counts far exceeding what would be rendered on the screen in any Pokemon game at any given time, while the Standard cars have polygon counts around the 4000 mark, far below what'll likely be many Pokemon models and something that'd look very out of place in the given context of GT5 and 6.

Not to mention, it seems like a case of "how many models are reused?". If it's a small minority of models, who cares? They still fit and look good in the given context, so why complain?

Check out my guide on how to scan cover art here!

Local asshole and 6th generation console enthusiast.

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1 minute ago, handymanshandle said:

They still fit and look good in the given context, so why complain?

To complain, obviously.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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4 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

This is a big deal... why?

Gran Turismo 6 was using models dating back to 2001 when it came out. It’s a known fact that Valve reuses models from game to game. Dunno why it’s such a big deal here.

 

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

To complain, obviously.

did you guys read my post thats not the problem here

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7 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

And in the given context, 10 grand in the polygon department for most Pokemon models is pretty good. They don't need massive detail at all, and anything that could use smoothing off could probably be done with tessellation. 

Again with the Gran Turismo comparison, the Premium cars in GT5 and 6 have polygon counts far exceeding what would be rendered on the screen in any Pokemon game at any given time, while the Standard cars have polygon counts around the 4000 mark, far below what'll likely be many Pokemon models and something that'd look very out of place in the given context of GT5 and 6.

Not to mention, it seems like a case of "how many models are reused?". If it's a small minority of models, who cares? They still fit and look good in the given context, so why complain?

The art direction is fairly cartoonish anyway, so excessive polygon counts aren't needed. Environments would probably benefit from use of displacement maps and tessellation for easy detail that doesn't contribute much to load times. 

 

Pokemon really hurts for a fast running game engine more than anything though. It would be fantastic to see the game be as responsive as it was in the GBA days once more. Random encounters aren't such a big deal when you're talking half second loads vs ~10 seconds on UltraSun/Moon.

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

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