Richard Stallman of GNU leaves MIT email leaks

[Sauron]

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Saying "sexual assault" conjures up images of violent rape in my mind, not a seemingly willing person asking if another person wants to have sex, and they both agree to it and have it in a nice and peaceful manner. And I should add that it seems like Minsky turned the offer down. All evidence we have points towards him saying no to the offer.

"Sexual assault" doesn't automatically imply violent rape. What you think of when you hear it is up to you but there's a fairly clear legal definition of what sexual assault is and it covers a lot more than just brutal beatings and forced intercourse. I would also add that it's beside the point, if there was an assault that's bad enough even if it wasn't brutally violent.

 

As for whether it was conducted in a "peaceful manner", the reality of it is that Stallman just doesn't and can't know - he wasn't there and he doesn't seem to have any more evidence than the rest of us, and all we have is a testimony saying that a girl was told to offer Minsky sex. As you said, we don't even know for sure whether Minsky accepted the offer or not as there are conflicting accounts.

 

If Stallman had defended his friend by simply saying that he refused the offer that would have been the end of it - but that's not what he was saying. On its own a gaffe like this would probably have been no problem, but Stallman has a history of making very equivocal statements about rape and pedophilia. If that's the hill he wants to die on then great, but let's not expect everyone to just indulge him; there was a protest and he stepped down from his official positions, it's not like he's been imprisoned or anything. I'd bet financially he'll be more than fine, he gets donations and he's known to conduct a fairly frugal lifestyle.

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Ehh... Do you even know the timeline here? This happened several years before someone reported Epstein and before the police started investigating him. I really don't think it is too far fetched to assume Minsky didn't know when barely anyone knew at the time.

The Minsky incident happened in 2002. Epstein might be a well known sex trafficker now, but he wasn't 17 years ago.

Hmm, from what I heard it was a pretty open secret for decades. Obviously that's just speculation on my part, but then again it's equally speculative to just assume that Minsky didn't have a clue.

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

What Jito said was that he believes that if people did not get drunk or have sex outside of marriage then fewer or no sexual assaults would occur.

And I'm saying that's a bad point because you shouldn't have to live your life in fear that you could be assaulted - it's not your responsibility, it's the assaulter's. By that logic I could say that if you never leave your house you won't get hit by a drunk driver. You don't solve societal problems by blaming innocent victims. Caution is fine but ultimately you can't just appeal to that and consider the problem solved.

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

When talking about such a sensitive subject as this, it is EXTREMELY important to thoroughly read exactly what someone says and not read things between the lines.

On the contrary, reading between the lines is what's extremely important. The meaning of a sentence can change drastically depending on the context and the motives of the person saying it. It's either extremely naive or delusional to think you can take something like this to the letter and pretend it exists in a vacuum. For example, what I'm writing now in response to you is weighed on the basis of our past interactions and what I think you might be receptive to - there's more going on than just my words. Stallman is not an idiot, we don't have to treat him like a 3 year old who doesn't have the mental capacity to mean more than just his words - and there is quite a bit of precedent to weigh his words against. We know that Stallman doesn't believe in statutory rape, we know that he thinks everything is fine so long as both parties appear to be willing. It's absurd to try and read his statements without acknowledging this context.

[Jito463]

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Jito did not say that if you are drunk or having sex outside of marriage then it's acceptable to get sexually assaulted.

What Jito said was that he believes that if people did not get drunk or have sex outside of marriage then fewer or no sexual assaults would occur. Am I interpreting you correctly @Jito463?

My comments were meant in the context of your statement about someone approaching you at a party, though I do believe there would be fewer incidents if people didn't place themselves in precarious situations.  At no point is assault - sexual or otherwise - justified against another human being (apart from self defense, but that's a completely separate topic).

 

My only point was that if people didn't place themselves in situations where they could be taken advantage of, then these types of incidents would be few and far between.

[Thaldor]

I'm actually quite surprised this hasn't happened before. I don't really care about he resent events or even the sexual assault stuff, but generally Stallman has always been kind of the personification of free software / open-source mentality: Extremely inflexible about his opinions, noisy about his opinions, spending a lot of time and resources to fight against nuances (GNU/Linux or GNU+Linux vs just Linux) and taking everything to the 11. He might be very nice and good person in reality but his public image from GNU and FSF is more like some religious fanatic added with a pinch of OCD and paranoia (which usually spells very difficult person to do work and be with). He seems so strict and absolute with his ideals and opinions that that's is why I'm surprised he hasn't been kicked out from MIT sooner, like everybody knows the guy at the work who has these very strict and absolute opinions about things and cannot even consider that others might not see the things like he does or maybe his opinions aren't as good as they seem to be and usually these guys generate so much friction within the work community that sooner or later they either get kicked out or get the note and leave and no one is surprised.

 

E: And just to add usually these people with strong opinions don't leave that way of thinking to stuff they actually know about, but it's everywhere and that's usually makes things hard.

[Trik'Stari]

On 9/17/2019 at 2:44 PM, DrMacintosh said:

People in positions of importance and power need to learn to stay off of Twitter. It only comes back to bite them in the ass. 

Or they need to learn to not apologize and acquiesce to their every demand, it only emboldens this type of social media mob mentality that HR and PR departments misread and overreact to.

 

It's random dickheads on the internet, move on and ignore them and they'll go away eventually.

 

On 9/18/2019 at 2:18 AM, LAwLz said:

By the way, if you want the full story here are the things surrounding this.

 

 

Jeffrey Epstein is a diseased bank and finance worker who earlier this year was arrested for sex trafficking of minors. He died in jail. I believe he also was a large contributor (monetary) to MIT.

Marvin Minsky was a person working at MIT researching AI. He died a few years ago.

Richard Stallman is a person who worked at MIT and was a close friend of Marvin Minsky. He is mostly known for the GPL (open source license used by a wide variety of software) and his works at the Free Software Foundation.

 

 

1) Because of financing reasons, Marvin Minsky was invited over to Jeffrey Epstein's private island, along with several other people.

 

2) At the island, Epstein asked a then 17 year old girl to have sex with Minsky.

 

3) In a fairly newly unsealed deposition, (linked above) it was revealed that the 17 year old girl was asked to have sex with Minsky. Although it is worth noting that she never said that they actually had sex, only that Epstein asked her to. It is also worth noting that at least one witness have said that Minsky turned the offer down, which makes sense since otherwise the 17 year old girl would probably have said that they had sex at the island, not just that she was asked to have sex.

 

4) Now, a few years later, some people started accusing Minsky and others of sexual assault and started a rally at the school, calling for people at MIT to resign because of involvements with Epstein (mostly claims of "they probably knew about Epstein's crimes but didn't say anything").

 

5) When Stallman saw his diseased friend get accused of sexual assault he said that the terms used to describe him was a bit unfair. The full statement can be found in my previous post.

 

6) Now people hate Stallman for not wanting Minsky's head on a stick for allegedly having had sex with what seemed like a willing and mature woman. Because as we all known, facts doesn't matter. What we know is that a 17 year old was asked to have sex with Minsky by a third party and therefore Minsky should be labeled a pedo and rapist! Anyone who disagrees with this is clearly themselves a pedo and rapist!

I really can't wait for a company or group to finally stand up to this movement and say "you're an ignorant fool, f**k off"

 

I really want to see a company or group to say that, verbatim, on twitter, to the mob mentality. Then just stop responding and see how quickly the outrage moves on.

[Jito463]

9 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Or they need to learn to not apologize and acquiesce to their every demand, it only emboldens this type of social media mob mentality that HR and PR departments misread and overreact to.

I was just reading about IKEA making a 'Jerk Chicken with rice and peas' meal, only to have people complain that they used actual green peas, when the original Caribbean dish used beans (which they refer to as peas).  And not just complaining, but heavily implying it's racist because......reasons?  Of course, IKEA apologized and backtracked on the menu item.  Someone can't possibly take a meal and do something different with it, no sir.

[Trik'Stari]

35 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

I was just reading about IKEA making a 'Jerk Chicken with rice and peas' meal, only to have people complain that they used actual green peas, when the original Caribbean dish used beans (which they refer to as peas).  And not just complaining, but heavily implying it's racist because......reasons?  Of course, IKEA apologized and backtracked on the menu item.  Someone can't possibly take a meal and do something different with it, no sir.

I just stumbled upon it and I have an idea for a hashtag.

 

Make an ethnic dish, with a european side, post picture with hashtag #ColonizeTheirCuisine

[spartaman64]

On 9/18/2019 at 2:12 AM, Jito463 said:

There's two very simple remedies to this scenario.

 

1) Don't drink/get drunk

2) Don't have sex outside of marriage

 

Problem solved.  And don't tell me that's unreasonable, because plenty of people are capable of thinking with their head, and not their nether regions.

i guess my friends who has been dating for 10 years and had kids together without marrying are doing it wrong

[Andreas Lilja]

On 9/19/2019 at 2:46 AM, mr moose said:

So basically this guys has had to resign because he committed the horrendous crime of pointing out that someone refusing sex with a minor 17 years ago does not equal sexual assault and the people should not be protesting that which they don;t understand?

 

typical outcome for the actions of today's outraged ignoramuses.

No it's far worse.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/famed-mit-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-defends-epstein-victims-were-entirely-willing

[mr moose]

19 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

No it's far worse.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/famed-mit-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-defends-epstein-victims-were-entirely-willing

I hope he sues that publisher for defamation and wins big.  

[Derangel]

On 9/18/2019 at 2:12 AM, Jito463 said:

There's two very simple remedies to this scenario.

 

1) Don't drink/get drunk

2) Don't have sex outside of marriage

 

Problem solved.  And don't tell me that's unreasonable, because plenty of people are capable of thinking with their head, and not their nether regions.

 

I don't think either of them are remotely reasonably, for the most part. There is nothing at all wrong with drinking, as long as a person is able to control their intake. Like most things, moderation is the key. Your second "remedy" is utter puritanical bullshit that has no basis in reality either now or in the entire history of the human race.

[suicidalfranco]

8 hours ago, Andreas Lilja said:

No it's far worse.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/famed-mit-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-defends-epstein-victims-were-entirely-willing

looks og source

looks news article

 

wow so detached from reality it's not even funny

[muito_gostoso]

lol

[TheVillageIdiot]

On 9/20/2019 at 6:49 PM, Trik'Stari said:

Or they need to learn to not apologize and acquiesce to their every demand, it only emboldens this type of social media mob mentality that HR and PR departments misread and overreact to.

 

It's random dickheads on the internet, move on and ignore them and they'll go away eventually.

 

I really can't wait for a company or group to finally stand up to this movement and say "you're an ignorant fool, f**k off"

 

I really want to see a company or group to say that, verbatim, on twitter, to the mob mentality. Then just stop responding and see how quickly the outrage moves on.

Why did I know you were a part of this :)~