Intel wants reviewers to benchmark using windows media player instead of cinebench for low end mobile

[Bananasplit_00]

if the next CPU review i watch or read dosnt have an office suite benchmark with frametimes, export times and convert to PDF times its not trustworthy

[imreloadin]

35 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

That's what Intel are basing their review "suggestion" for HEDT parts on.

That just goes to show how they're trying to be misleading then...if they're able to do this survey for notebooks and 2-in-1 devices then they're sure as hell able to do it for HEDT customers as well as that sample pool is MUCH smaller than everyone with a laptop or ultrabook.

This is INTEL we're talking about here, they most likely already HAVE the numbers on what people within each product segment are using their devices for, that's literally how they know what to make future improvements on.

[pas008]

18 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

That just goes to show how they're trying to be misleading then...if they're able to do this survey for notebooks and 2-in-1 devices then they're sure as hell able to do it for HEDT customers as well as that sample pool is MUCH smaller than everyone with a laptop or ultrabook.

This is INTEL we're talking about here, they most likely already HAVE the numbers on what people within each product segment are using their devices for, that's literally how they know what to make future improvements on.

they do know

thats why there a slide in this article here

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14838/intels-nextgeneration-cascade-lakex-hedt-cpus-due-in-october

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, imreloadin said:

That just goes to show how they're trying to be misleading then...if they're able to do this survey for notebooks and 2-in-1 devices then they're sure as hell able to do it for HEDT customers as well as that sample pool is MUCH smaller than everyone with a laptop or ultrabook.

This is INTEL we're talking about here, they most likely already HAVE the numbers on what people within each product segment are using their devices for, that's literally how they know what to make future improvements on.

I disagree with this one. The reason intel used portable data is because it's probably the only data they have available to them simply because the tool that reports back to them probably comes preinstalled on every laptop they sell. Desktops they probably have a smaller sample set from OEM sales but anybody building a PC, be it normal or enthusiast platform, is very unlikely to install that tool manually and even less likely to allow it to report back should it get snuck on.

 

Doesn't make it any less of a douche bag move though.

[imreloadin]

57 minutes ago, pas008 said:

they do know

thats why there a slide in this article here

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14838/intels-nextgeneration-cascade-lakex-hedt-cpus-due-in-october

Relative performance in what? It doesn't discuss anything about what benchmark was used other than "content creation applications"...

I'm sorry but that article doesn't say anything really.

[pas008]

20 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

Relative performance in what? It doesn't discuss anything about what benchmark was used other than "content creation applications"...

I'm sorry but that article doesn't say anything really.

is this slide that hard to understand?

its obviously showing they are getting their asses kicked by amd in content creation apps( a summary of them or ones they deem fit) per dollar which many reviews have shown too

 

intel might be doing a mixture of upping single thread, slightly increasing more cores(considering more cores usually mean lower clocks which have tradeoffs because of ipc and frequency), and reducing price to compete

[Curious Pineapple]

Remember when VW pulled a plane with the Toureg as a demo of it's towing ability? Imagine if Land Rover moaned that it's not a "real world test" and instead told everyone to use a small camping trailer with a bag of sand in to test towing capacity instead.

 

I mean sure, it's a real world test , but I tow more weight with my pissing Reliant Robin.

 

Nothing from the past decade or so should really struggle playing media (considering it's all offloaded to GPU anyway), and does it really matter if Ryzen uses 2.2% more resources when opening a new tab in Chrome? Maybe Chrome was compiled using a compiler than favours Intel hardware.

 

They may be good tests for ultra low power parts for tablets and small notebooks, but not desktop processors.

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Photoshop-CPU-Roundup-AMD-Ryzen-3-AMD-Threadripper-2-Intel-9th-Gen-Intel-X-series-1529/

 

Intel really shouldn't be complaining about R20. It's a real world product and an easy & repeatable benchmark that does show combined load ability. What they should really worry about is that AMD is level or better in everything else. (Hopefully we start seeing professional products rolling out multiple .exe files for the different processors, since optimizations do matter.)

Not sure how that relates to what I said. I'm not saying anything about actual performance, where Intel excels and falls short is moot to might point.  I don't want or need cinebench reviews when looking at low to mid tier processors. hell i didn't even need it at all up until just recently.

9 hours ago, cj09beira said:

today 4 cores even for 1080p 60 is not a good experience unless you have ht, people not asking for more seems to me like a lie.

Two things, 1 gamer's are not the majority of users, light work is.  Data entry, facebook, office management, invoicing watching youtube etc.  Probably close to about 80 odd % of the market.  and 2 i had 4 cores no HT up until 2 months ago and was happily gaming 1080 60+ in mist titles.  Not everyone is trying to push the latest titles with everything on.

9 hours ago, cj09beira said:

I think its the other way around we haven't needed more than 4 cores all this time (a full decade) because there were none being made for consumers 

There have been though, Both Intel and AMD have had 8+ core processors out since 2008.  The only benefit they really presented was in data centers (lots of simultaneous small processes) and not so good for desktop that required faster single thread processes.  It has really only been over the last 2-3 years that everyday computing (office, web browsing) has been able to really capitalize on more than 2 cores.

 

9 hours ago, cj09beira said:

so only now can devs start to actually put more cores to use 

are you on ddr3?, ddr5 is probably not out next year, zen 3 will still be ddr4 unless there are two versions of it, as it was confirmed to be ddr4 by amd, ddr5 seems more likely to be a 2021 thing

It looks like AMD will be able to do dual ddr4 and ddr5 on the one chip,  but rumors are rumors and i might have misread those posts.  

 

9 hours ago, RejZoR said:

LMAO? Where in bloody hell I'm contradicting myself? Tests cover various tasks from professional tools, general productivity to gaming. Then it's up to YOU to pick parts of review that interests YOU. Reviewers don't have a magic crystal ball to know what you'll do with the CPU.

You did not address anythign I said other than to try and say productivity was necessary but could be ignored. 

9 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Just like I skip all the games in graphic card benchmarks that I'll never ever play or be even remotely interested in them (for example anything from Ubisoft). Or should I go on a raging rampage how reviewers dare benchmarking with games I don't play, but don't benchmark those that I do. Not to mention everyone just benchmarks framerate, but when new features are in question, they often barely touch them or just mention them. For me, extra features were always more important because I always had stupid high framerate anyway...

 

And if you're one of those idiots who skip ALL the review pages and look at the verdict, then why are you even bothering to waste time looking at a review? That's like buying a Ferrari becaue it's the fastest and verdict even says so and then complain it's shit because you're living in a fucking mountain and it's terrible to drive on a trashed gravel road...

perhaps you should read what i am actually saying before responding.

7 hours ago, Thaldor said:

It's just that you cannot throw "normal" use workloads at modern desktop CPUs and expect to get any kind of trustful or useful results without going synthetic. Even the mid-tier i5s and Ryzen 5s eat Chrome and Office for breakfast and the top-tier laughs at them and at that point it's just completely waste of time to test anything like that because the reason why Chrome opened that 0.0001 seconds slower with CPU Y compared to CPU X is more likely to be caused by Windows having a hiccup or even a bit being in a different place in the RAM than did you spend more on the CPU. Not to even talk about testing some most played games, currently I would remember CSGO runs with i9-9900K+RTX 2080 Ti in some +600FPS ranges when it's not restricted, at that point even the HDMI/DVI/DP-link connection starts to affect the results, not to even talk about how long distance there's between the CPU and GPU on the motherboard, that 3mm difference might be 2-3FPS less because latency (not to even mention some games that have shown that i7-7700K is still the king of the CPUs because for some magical reason they attain higher FPS with it (and that is called optimization)).

I think you missed my point,  I have already said several times in this thread the idea that testing anything higher than mid range for office performance is stupid, just like testing low end hardware with stuff like cinebench is pointless.  The whole argument from Intel is horse for courses and I am saying from my perspective that is not an entirely stupid request.  And where you came in was me responding to someone who claimed people didn't understand cinebench or its accuracy,  they do they just don't agree it applies to everyone and is not a necessary benchmark for most users.

 

 

[5x5]

Id agree about the memory thing

 Same situation happened when going from DDR2 to DDR3. Phenom II and Core 2. had support for both depending on the board IIRC. Also with Skylake where it worked with DDR4 and DDR3L depending on the board.

[Taf the Ghost]

https://medium.com/performance-at-intel/food-for-thought-on-our-ifa-event-395dc775de9

 

@spartaman64 Intel released something of an response to all of this.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

https://medium.com/performance-at-intel/food-for-thought-on-our-ifa-event-395dc775de9

 

@spartaman64 Intel released something of an response to all of this.

 

Don't go presenting facts around here,  people don't like it after they've gone on a tirade about how evil Intel is. 

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

I disagree with this one. The reason intel used portable data is because it's probably the only data they have available to them simply because the tool that reports back to them probably comes preinstalled on every laptop they sell. Desktops they probably have a smaller sample set from OEM sales but anybody building a PC, be it normal or enthusiast platform, is very unlikely to install that tool manually and even less likely to allow it to report back should it get snuck on.

 

Doesn't make it any less of a douche bag move though.

 

I think Intel has a better grasp of their consumers than that.    These companies invest millions in researching consumer demand and end use to ensure their next product doesn't flop.  You can bet your arse AMD have similar stats in their board rooms.      Also the DIY PC market is likely minuscule next to the laptop and 2in1 market.   So if their figures are skewed by that, they aren't skewed enough to make the point any different. not too mention that no one DIY's laptops and 2 in 1's so the relevance of the data they collect is likely not effected by home builders at all.

[RejZoR]

Given they recently employed Ryan Shrout to lead them on "what users want" I'd say they were pretty clueless... Why else you'd specifically employ one to do that now?

[mr moose]

14 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Given they recently employed Ryan Shrout to lead them on "what users want" I'd say they were pretty clueless... Why else you'd specifically employ one to do that now?

Pretty much this is just Intel's version of the gaming scientist at AMD.   They al;l employ people in that capacity  for one thing or another.

[Master Disaster]

33 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

I think Intel has a better grasp of their consumers than that.    These companies invest millions in researching consumer demand and end use to ensure their next product doesn't flop.  You can bet your arse AMD have similar stats in their board rooms.      Also the DIY PC market is likely minuscule next to the laptop and 2in1 market.   So if their figures are skewed by that, they aren't skewed enough to make the point any different. not too mention that no one DIY's laptops and 2 in 1's so the relevance of the data they collect is likely not effected by home builders at all.

Oh for sure but it's one thing investing money into research, it's another thing entirely to have actual real world use case data being fed back to you in real time.

 

I don't doubt that Intel is 100% aware of which class of users are using what application but I do doubt they have accurate statistics for every different class. HEDT is likely the class they have the least real world data on because, afaik, they sell zero OEM HEDT systems.

[thorhammerz]

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

gamer's are not the majority of users, light work is. 

Content-creating-while-gaming-gamers? Making use of all 30+ threads!! 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Oh for sure but it's one thing investing money into research, it's another thing entirely to have actual real world use case data being fed back to you in real time.

 

I don't doubt that Intel is 100% aware of which class of users are using what application but I do doubt they have accurate statistics for every different class. HEDT is likely the class they have the least real world data on because, afaik, they sell zero OEM HEDT systems.

searching doesn't tell me much on the surface about what sells and market share,  But I would be surprised if there were more DIY HEDT than workstations built by the big OEM's.

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

HEDT is likely the class they have the least real world data on because, afaik, they sell zero OEM HEDT systems.

What do you mean by this? HP for example we would call an OEM and design their own devices from 2in1s to laptops to desktops to HEDT systems that include single socket and dual socket configurations (really high end HEDT). There's lots of OEMs that make HEDT systems that use Intel CPUs but Intel themselves haven't been an OEM in terms of parts or systems for a long time. They do make specifications for device designs to allow the usage of their marketing brand names like 'Ultrabook' but others actually do the product design itself.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, thorhammerz said:

Content-creating-while-gaming-gamers? Making use of all 30+ threads

And emailing on the side while re-coding the next video and downloading updates for their 3 VM's running in the background.  All of which are likely the majority of users

[thorhammerz]

8 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

afaik, they sell zero OEM HEDT systems.

Recommend taking a look at the offerings from Puget systems (as an example).

[thorhammerz]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And emailing on the side while re-coding the next video and downloading updates for their 3 VM's running in the background. 

And folding and running games in each VM while compiling Linux Kernels...

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

All of which are likely the majority of users

.

[Master Disaster]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

searching doesn't tell me much on the surface about what sells and market share,  But I would be surprised if there were more DIY HEDT than workstations built by the big OEM's.

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

What do you mean by this? HP for example we would call and OEM and designed their down devices from 2in1s to laptops to desktops to HEDT systems that include single socket and and dual socket configurations (really high end HEDT). There's lots of OEMs that make HEDT systems that use Intel CPUs but Intel themselves haven't been an OEM in terms of parts or systems for a long time. They do make specifications for device designs to allow the usage of their marketing brand names like 'Ultrabook' but others actually do the product design itself.

Shoot, yeah I didn't consider workstation builds at all. Of course OEMs sell workstation class machines.

 

That actually makes the choice of using portable device data even more baffling. They have the same data for desktop and high end users available, OK so possibly not in as high numbers but it's still there.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Recommend taking a look at the offerings from Puget systems (as an example).

They aren't really an OEM, more a System Integrator. They make systems from vendor/supplier parts and validate these in to products you can buy from them and customization ability. Service they offer is advice, support and software compatibility guarantee which is an actually useful thing when considering things like SolidWorks and computer driven industrial machinery. 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

 

Shoot, yeah I didn't consider workstation builds at all. Of course OEMs sell workstation class machines.

 

That actually makes the choice of using portable device data even more baffling. They have the same data for desktop and high end users available, OK so possibly not in as high numbers but it's still there.

*cough* Mac Pro *cough*

*holds back vomit*

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

 

 

That actually makes the choice of using portable device data even more baffling.

I don't understand what is baffling about it.  They are saying that reviewers are using cinebench in reviews of 2in1's way in excess of the number of users who would actually need that information.  They claim it is no good because those reviews are a "disservice" to the reader.   If they did not have data from portable devices they could not make that claim.  Conversely with the data they have on HEDT they have said they promote Cinebench testing in those products:

 

Quote

In fact, I backed its use for testing X-series and W-series products that fit in the prosumer and workstation segments where its workload is more common.