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matt-fr

April Windows update causes system to freeze or hang upon restart

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8 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

This has nothing to do with your example, its more of "the manufacturer fixed an issue with the airbag but your pioneer you installed prevents its from deploying"

Except that the car would most likely still start and drive normally, you'd simply be less protected in case of an accident. 

 

This is more like "we fixed an issue with the airbag, but because of your Pioneer system the car now won't start"

 

-----

 

I'm a bit torn on this one.  Normally I'd refer to Torvalds' first rule of kernel maintenance ("you do not break userspace"), but with AV companies not following Microsoft's guidelines I'm giving MS a pass on this one. 

Besides, 3rd party antivirus is one big scam anyway and does little more than to ADD extra vulnerabilities for attackers to exploit. 

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14 hours ago, matt-fr said:

I don't know who's fault it is here (antivirus companies or Microsoft), but this is pretty bad.

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Not following Microsoft recommendations for many things and violate many fundamental principles of 3rd party software kernel integration.

Basically this^

And it's the reason why you could get BSOD's or similar issues in those situations

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I've been unable to do a clean install of this version 

 

I get a stack overflow error on some older systems


System specs:

4790k

GTX 1050

16GB DDR3

Samsung evo SSD

a few HDD's

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5 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

So it's an issue with AV software really. 

Tested with one of our Windows 7 computers at work (after making a System Restore point first), and it went fine with Eset NOD32 installed (not even the current version).  Looks like only certain AV software is the problem.

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2 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Tested with one of our Windows 7 computers at work (after making a System Restore point first), and it went fine with Eset NOD32 installed (not even the current version).  Looks like only certain AV software is the problem.

Yeah, certain, those mentioned. I have ESET SSP with MBP and never had any issues with updates.

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I read an article a little while ago that claimed the biggest cause of update issues in windows was 3rd party software that either hadn't been updated or was no longer supported. 

 

Which stands to reason given operating systems by their nature need to change and evolve as new threats, exploits and flaws are discovered.  But given so many people are promoting you disable updates instead of fix the problems,  it's no wonder we still have so many problems.

 

Here's an article that breaks down the issues with the October update,  most of the issues within that update fall back to 3rd party driver/software incompatibility.

https://www.techradar.com/au/how-to/windows-10-october-2018-update-problems-how-to-fix-them

 

Given the scale of hardware/software options, devices in various stages of updatedness (yes that's a word :/) it just comes back to law of averages.

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I read an article a little while ago that claimed the biggest cause of update issues in windows was 3rd party software that either hadn't been updated or was no longer supported. 

 

Which stands to reason given operating systems by their nature need to change and evolve as new threats, exploits and flaws are discovered.  But given so many people are promoting you disable updates instead of fix the problems,  it's no wonder we still have so many problems.

 

Here's an article that breaks down the issues with the October update,  most of the issues within that update fall back to 3rd party driver/software incompatibility.

https://www.techradar.com/au/how-to/windows-10-october-2018-update-problems-how-to-fix-them

 

Given the scale of hardware/software options, devices in various stages of updatedness (yes that's a word :/) it just comes back to law of averages.

 

 

Very good point indeed. The fact still is some of these out of date devices and software are still heavily in use. Not everyone can afford to upgrade on Microsoft’s terms. My system is 6 or so years old and it was a generation behind when I built it. Most of my hardware is “no longer supported” or drivers haven’t been updated in some time. I shouldn’t have to upgrade on Microsoft schedule. At the very least give us an option to opt out of updates. PC hardware is so powerful today that most people keep their systems for at least a decade if not more. So while I get it’s a challenge for them to pull this off, it seemed like they were doing fine with windows 98 thru windows 8. To me the issue is they do a shit job on validating the updates because they consolidated the windows update team into one team for phone/Xbox/windows at least the last I heard.  


You ever notice that many establishments have a sign that as "No Shirt, No Shoes, No service"? They never say anything about pants............ You know what that implies. You dont have to wear pants. 

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1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Very good point indeed. The fact still is some of these out of date devices and software are still heavily in use. Not everyone can afford to upgrade on Microsoft’s terms. My system is 6 or so years old and it was a generation behind when I built it. Most of my hardware is “no longer supported” or drivers haven’t been updated in some time. I shouldn’t have to upgrade on Microsoft schedule. At the very least give us an option to opt out of updates. PC hardware is so powerful today that most people keep their systems for at least a decade if not more. So while I get it’s a challenge for them to pull this off, it seemed like they were doing fine with windows 98 thru windows 8. To me the issue is they do a shit job on validating the updates because they consolidated the windows update team into one team for phone/Xbox/windows at least the last I heard.  

I don't think it's a good idea to opt out of a security update when there are valid workarounds for most of the issues. The problem is more that OS's have to change to fix issues, we can't leave issues in place just because HP's keyboard driver had an issue or that the Intel sound driver is no longer operational.  I think MS has been quite good in fixing those issues rather than leaving it to Intel or HP to fix.

 

Although I don't know what's going to happen when an update comes out that won't have a fix,  Hopefully if that every happens it'll only be on hardware being kept for posterity.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I don't know what's going to happen when an update comes out that won't have a fix

Thats when I move my plex server to linux or freenas and when I move over to MacOS for desktop OS. 


You ever notice that many establishments have a sign that as "No Shirt, No Shoes, No service"? They never say anything about pants............ You know what that implies. You dont have to wear pants. 

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13 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

So it's an issue with AV software really. 

Exactly. I know a lot of people have a hard on for hating Microsoft but this one is entirely Sophos' fault. I've been dealing with it all week long too. About 1/5 of our company's computers are still Windows 7. We're rolling out Windows 10 slowly as we do hardware upgrades and also setting up for automatic deployment using Microsoft's tool so we don't pass the Jan deadline.

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1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Thats when I move my plex server to linux or freenas and when I move over to MacOS for desktop OS. 

My NAS is already a freenas, Whilst windows seemed easier to setup, freenas is cheaper and people keep assuring me is the better long term solution for storage. The only system likely to suffer from update issues with no work around would be XP/vista, which already don't receive updates.  I have one of those machines but it is not connected to any network (and doesn't need to be). 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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8 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Thats when I move my plex server to linux or freenas and when I move over to MacOS for desktop OS. 

Imo they are not that comparable

Since this is exclusively an issue with Windows 3rd party drivers, and in those systems (BSD, MacOS and Linux) the driver release are completely different.

First of all, the linux mainline kernel drivers require the code to complain to some standards (and for a reason) and FreeBSD follows a similar line, MacOS too

Second, Windows drivers do not break ABI that frequently, while on those unix-systems drivers need to be recompiled for every kernel build (and linux drivers are open source, so pretty easy to port for eventual ABI changes thus causing not issues with that, but they still have to be recompiled anyway by design), that means windows drivers are retro compatible (and can ALSO be installed on later versions of the OS), and could be installed when they shouldn't

The only to blame here are 3rd developers, and in a small quantity Microsoft, which imo should require stricter controls and a sort of certification for those drivers to be installed with quality standards, and stricter OS requirements (Not every windows 8 drivers will work on 10 and will just cause issues)

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