Valve taken to court by Australian consumer commission over Steam refund policy

[Trik'Stari]

Because Valve is offering digital items to australian customers, they technically must abide by australian consumer law. Whether they have a physical presence or not makes no difference if you are offering and selling digital items within that country.

 

Valve have no problem gouging Aussie customers anyway with absurd prices so I think it's only fair if the ACCC demands a reasonable refund system in the event a customer gets screwed over.

Yes but what action can the ACCC actually take against Valve if Valve just ignore's them?

[Anult]

Yes but what action can the ACCC actually take against Valve if Valve just ignore's them?

 

The ACCC could potentially tell Valve to stop selling items in Australia if they fail to comply with what is being asked, that would be a worst case scenario however.

 

Australia alone accounts for the 4th highest amount of income from game sales to Steam so that could spell bad news if it did happen though.

 

Another punishment could be a severe financial penalty.

 

Considering that Adobe buckled under the threat of a massive financial fine over it's price gouging of products in Australia, I think Valve will buckle too.

[Zyphera]

This is really good news! I hope they win!

[zacRupnow]

They should change this, even EA has figured this out. Where you can return your game within 24 hrs

Except for people with shit internet and it takes 24 hrs to download

[Cookie Monster]

Normally it's not, but when it's a product that doesn't physically exist, and is entirely metaphysical in concept, things are different. Not to mention that when you buy something from a retailer that specifically says "no refunds" you have agreed to that fact.

You cannot sign anyway your statutory rights in Australia. 

 

You have a legal right to a refund if a product is broken, not as described; the usual sort of stuff. The fact a product is electronic doesn't magically exempt it from the law. It just means you cannot physically return or exchange the product and so you have to get a refund instead.

[Victorious Secret]

Yes but what action can the ACCC actually take against Valve if Valve just ignore's them?

 

Financial sanctions. ACCC has FEDERAL power to enforce fines and they can KICK Valve out of Australia entirely and then sue them in court and then win. 

 

Valve does not get to supersede the laws in a country they do business in. They have to abide by them or at the very least, get a team of lawyers to craft a clever way to get around them. Valve did nothing, they get to pay the piper. 

[LOLPhilips]

I accidentally bought Final Fantasy 8 instead of 7 because it was late and I didn't pay attention to the one stupid "I" or the characters and Steam wouldn't give me a refund. I mean sure I played them both by now but I really would have liked to have some kind of 24 hour thing. I hope in vain that would make devs create games longer than 24 hours too, or even 12 because I sleep half the time

 

Yarrrrr,

 

Ye musta been bummed out when ye found, that both 7 and 8 do not hold up to the earlier or even later "ff9" works.

I be thinking anyone buying both those games should be refunded cause buying those is the definition of being buccaneered.

 

 

 

Furthermore and on-topic, yes there should be a return service of some kind.

How that would work and all of that, well.. Fuck me I have no idea and I don't really care..

I pay with me stolen booty anyway I be.

[bpw87]

Well seeing as Valve regionalise pricing to Australia, and we pay Australian Tax, it means they're registered in Australia so have to obey Australian Laws towards Australian based purchases.

Actually Australia and the US have a trade agreement where if anything cost less then $1000AU it doesn't get a tax.

 

Also I think  3 or 4 hours of gameplay is more then enough, but round it up to 6 and then people wouldn't be completing campains and returning the game. I played Watch Dogs for less then an hour to realize it was a piece of shit game that wasn't what was advertised in the trailers. Just like those that brought DayZ would have known in under a few hours that it is trash.

[Trik'Stari]

Financial sanctions. ACCC has FEDERAL power to enforce fines and they can KICK Valve out of Australia entirely and then sue them in court and then win. 

 

Valve does not get to supersede the laws in a country they do business in. They have to abide by them or at the very least, get a team of lawyers to craft a clever way to get around them. Valve did nothing, they get to pay the piper. 

but they aren't IN australia. they have no physical presence there

[Cookie Monster]

but they aren't IN australia. they have no physical presence there

So how come Valve censored games like Left 4 Dead 2 to conform to Australian laws then?

[Victorious Secret]

but they aren't IN australia. they have no physical presence there

 

It doesn't matter that they have no physical presence. 

 

They are selling GOODS and SERVICES. They are a business making money through Australian customers. They have a very real presence by having a storefront that sells to Australians. They don't physically need to be there to conform to the business laws a country has.

I don't think you quite understand how international business and trade works and that international entities, regardless of physical presence, are still subject to the laws of the country that they operate a business in.

[WereCat]

THis will be abused though. If you can simply return a game within 24 hours you could say play the entire CoD campaign and some multiplayer and then return it. Actually that sounds like a really good idea. It would be like and unofficial demo if you know what I mean and to be honest there are not enough demo's out there that are worth playing.

I guess that if they make it that you can return it if you havent played game for over an 1 hour that would be reasonable.

[bpw87]

I guess that if they make it that you can return it if you havent played game for over an 1 hour that would be reasonable.

I think 6 hours would be a better number it's enough to know any major flaws in the game while not being able to complete most games campaign.

[dusty594]

Theoretically, if they implemented a return policy, I could see a slight issue that may arise.

Could you not purchase, download, and install a game, set steam to offline mode, and then call customer support for a refund? Voila: you can play the game until you're done with it?

[Guest Kloaked]

Dunno if it's been said yet, but the reason EA/Origin can do refunds is because almost (maybe) everything they sell is from EA, so they can issue refunds much easier.

Valve just needs to work out something with the people who are selling games through Steam with payments.

Something simple would be to hold the money you buy a game with for a certain amount to of time. After that time is up it goes to the publisher and no refund can be issued.

[bpw87]

Dunno if it's been said yet, but the reason EA/Origin can do refunds is because almost (maybe) everything they sell is from EA, so they can issue refunds much easier.

Valve just needs to work out something with the people who are selling games through Steam with payments.

Something simple would be to hold the money you buy a game with for a certain amount to of time. After that time is up it goes to the publisher and no refund can be issued.

Origin sells games like Watch Dogs but sadly don't offer the Great Game Guarantee on it, if it's on Origin and there isn't a GGG available I'm sceptical to buy that game, if it is a great a game even if it's from a different developer it should have it otherwise I'm gonna judge it as a second rate game not worth my time.

[Trik'Stari]

It doesn't matter that they have no physical presence. 

 

They are selling GOODS and SERVICES. They are a business making money through Australian customers. They have a very real presence by having a storefront that sells to Australians. They don't physically need to be there to conform to the business laws a country has.

I don't think you quite understand how international business and trade works and that international entities, regardless of physical presence, are still subject to the laws of the country that they operate a business in.

In my mind they only operate there if they have servers there, otherwise it's just the users downloading that service there. I'm just asking because I don't honestly see what ACCC could do to enforce a ruling. shut their service down and block it?

[Victorious Secret]

In my mind they only operate there if they have servers there, otherwise it's just the users downloading that service there. I'm just asking because I don't honestly see what ACCC could do to enforce a ruling. shut their service down and block it?

 

In your mind is not how the Australian Government has set up its Federal laws on international commerce. 

 

Steam takes money from Australians. They are engaging in transactions on Australian soil while paying out taxes and anything else to operate there. They are subject to Australian laws. 

 

And yes, the ACCC has federal authority to fine Steam (and actually get money since they represent the government on that) and they can rightfully ban Steam from the country. They have that kind of power. 

 

The ACCC is what the FTC would be if they had some balls. 

[Trik'Stari]

In your mind is not how the Australian Government has set up its Federal laws on international commerce. 

 

Steam takes money from Australians. They are engaging in transactions on Australian soil while paying out taxes and anything else to operate there. They are subject to Australian laws. 

 

And yes, the ACCC has federal authority to fine Steam (and actually get money since they represent the government on that) and they can rightfully ban Steam from the country. They have that kind of power. 

 

The ACCC is what the FTC would be if they had some balls. 

As far as I can see, all they can do is ban steam from the country, I fail to see however how they can legit fine steam (as in actually force them to pay money, steam could choose just to not pay) though, steam could just say "fuck off" and accept the ban. Which I think would blow back on the AUS government a bit (tiny bit?)

 

I also see a problem with this, if they offer refunds on everything to AUS users, they will have to offer it to everyone else won't they?

[Technous285]

As far as I can see, all they can do is ban steam from the country, I fail to see however how they can legit fine steam (as in actually force them to pay money, steam could choose just to not pay) though, steam could just say "fuck off" and accept the ban. Which I think would blow back on the AUS government a bit (tiny bit?)

 

I also see a problem with this, if they offer refunds on everything to AUS users, they will have to offer it to everyone else won't they?

Not right off the bat, but it would probably be in their best interests to have that available as an option in case other countries start to get the idea to jump down Valve's throat about it. If they have in place a system to over refunds (in the form of Steam Wallet credit) and/or exchanges of equivalent price (say, Borderlands 2 for Portal 2) <preferably have both refund and exchange options>, then they can eventually spread it to everyone else as a token of goodwill and a way of saying "hey governments, if you were thinking of attacking us for not providing refunds or exchanges, don't bother; The Aussies already did that for you!".

I kinda kid about the bit in quotation marks, but it would kind have a message along those lines if Steam started offering exchanges and refunds (in the form of wallet credit).

[theABCshop]

Valve:

 

[murratri]

Okay from a serious perspective, unless the game has major issues-Battlefeild 4-the game shouldnt need to be refunded do to any disaticfaction for the game. And the last thing Australia needs is GabeN casting them out do to their buisness overregulation.

Btw arent games in australia significantly more expensive, if so isnt this the last thing thry neec-higher prices?

Edit: I forgit to talk about Early access but was reminded by watching the Machinima video on it. Unlike the hosts-clowns- on the channel I feel that Early access should not be included in refund programs because they are uncomplete products that people purchase knowing there will be bugs, glitches and such because of that it means that as the hosts said people buying a game such as DayZ know its going to be broken and are participating in a sort of paid beta.

Edit Edit: Australia from what I've read does in fact have hogher game prices and that a major contributing factor into the price is their import restrictions, but that may only affect console peasants hard copies.

[Tigerbomb8]

Theoretically, if they implemented a return policy, I could see a slight issue that may arise.

Could you not purchase, download, and install a game, set steam to offline mode, and then call customer support for a refund? Voila: you can play the game until you're done with it?

They could make a system that once you request a refund, all computers you have used steam on need to go online before the refund is fully processed.. 

[mr moose]

As far as I can see, all they can do is ban steam from the country, I fail to see however how they can legit fine steam (as in actually force them to pay money, steam could choose just to not pay) though, steam could just say "fuck off" and accept the ban. Which I think would blow back on the AUS government a bit (tiny bit?)

 

I also see a problem with this, if they offer refunds on everything to AUS users, they will have to offer it to everyone else won't they?

America and Australia have what we call trade agreements and treaties, at the moment there is an agreement that the US will abide Australian laws when doing business in Australia and the reverse is also true.  That gives Australian (or American) authorities the power to hold a company based in the other country to account for violations of local law.

 

EDIT: It is really complicated, but this is the general gist of how it works.

[Victorious Secret]

America and Australia have what we call trade agreements and treaties, at the moment there is an agreement that the US will abide Australian laws when doing business in Australia and the reverse is also true. That gives Australian (or American) authorities the power to hold a company based in the other country to account for violations of local law.

EDIT: It is really complicated, but this is the general gist of how it works.

Basically. Valve agreed to those federal trade agreements the day they started selling in Australia.

Them not having a physical presence doesn't change the spirit and letter of those laws.

If anything, it pisses Aus off more. It's all digital. They don't have the return logistics and headaches that brick and mortar locations have to account for.