Microsoft are reportedly launching a discless Xbone in 2019

[ravenshrike]

12 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

It's about reducing piracy and removing the used market. 

Piracy having a significant negative effect on sales is a myth. The large companies like MS very much know this. This is all about strangling the used game market and forcing upgrades when the next gen comes out, nothing more.

[Shreyas1]

5 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

GameStop brought this on themselves though, they kind of screwed over publishers and hardware manufactures chasing their own bottom line, so these big games companies have never been a fan of GameStop and their subsidiaries. The first chance they get to cut them out of their chain they’ll take it. 

I never really thought about the impact on the used game market this will have. It will be really hard to get old but good quality games for really cheap

[ZacoAttaco]

30 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

I never really thought about the impact on the used game market this will have. It will be really hard to get old but good quality games for really cheap 

Buying games from Steam has always been better than physical because of the prices, but I doubt the Microsoft and PlayStation Stores will run sales the way Valve does. It means, most likely, higher prices.

[schwellmo92]

18 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Unfortunately, people like us in Australia with poor internet connection are small fish compared to the large American and European market. 

 

I expect the next major Xbox revision to be completely discless and I think this is the way to prepare their market. It’s definitely the way the market is going.

 

It does mean it’s going to be harder to get a good deal on software though, less options mean a more monopolistic market for Microsoft.

A lot of Australia has pretty decent internet these days, but yeah it would still take an annoying long time to download a game if I’m hitting 10MB/s, but is it any slower than a regular install off a disc?

 

Internet in USA isn’t as great as everyone thinks, sure there are locations with gigabit fibre for cheap but that’s a very small minority of the population that have access to good internet.

[Donut417]

14 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

persuade the administration to re-establish and enforce net neutrality.


Did nothing when it came to Comcast implementing caps and charging a $25-$50 fee to get unlimited. Or T Mobile and the rest of the carriers deprioritizing packets after a data limit is reached. 

[Misanthrope]

6 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Did nothing when it came to Comcast implementing caps and charging a $25-$50 fee to get unlimited. Or T Mobile and the rest of the carriers deprioritizing packets after a data limit is reached. 

Those are fair asides indeed but well, net neutrality is an even more basic guarantee that's still needed: can't put the cart before the horse and all but yeah net neutrality is not the only thing that needs fixing before your business model relies on the American ISP racket.

[Master Disaster]

16 hours ago, ravenshrike said:

Piracy having a significant negative effect on sales is a myth. The large companies like MS very much know this. This is all about strangling the used game market and forcing upgrades when the next gen comes out, nothing more.

It doesn't have to be about increasing sales, reducing piracy by removing the ability to copy discs would mean Microsoft don't have to spend all the money they currently do on DRM systems for both the consoles and discs. That's a pretty substantial saving on its own.

[Commodus]

16 hours ago, ravenshrike said:

Piracy having a significant negative effect on sales is a myth. The large companies like MS very much know this. This is all about strangling the used game market and forcing upgrades when the next gen comes out, nothing more.

And your evidence for that is?  I don't think piracy is a crushing burden on companies, but you can't just say that without support.

 

Besides, I'm not sure I'd say the used game market is all that healthy.  You get stores like GameStop that turn themselves into glorified pawn shops, selling you a used copy for only slightly less than new while knowing that the person who traded in maybe recouped only half the price.  The deals are better with older games, of course, but I don't really want to celebrate a business model that revolves around "wait a bit for a used copy" when the savings are small.

 

Besides... discs are frustrating.  It takes time to switch games when you use them, they can slow games down (since you may need to access the disc for some data instead of the hard drive) and, of course, you're hosed if you lose or break them.  I like knowing that the game I bought will always be available, and that I can switch games on the fly instead of having to go through a disc-switching process that feels increasingly outdated.

[asus killer]

26 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

It doesn't have to be about increasing sales, reducing piracy by removing the ability to copy discs would mean Microsoft don't have to spend all the money they currently do on DRM systems for both the consoles and discs. That's a pretty substantial saving on its own.

no one is copying xbox one disc, there is no piracy on xbox one. And piracy on PC doesn't work like that, it's all "discless" 

 

11 minutes ago, Commodus said:

And your evidence for that is?  I don't think piracy is a crushing burden on companies, but you can't just say that without support.

 

 

the witcher 3

[Master Disaster]

22 minutes ago, asus killer said:

no one is copying xbox one disc, there is no piracy on xbox one. And piracy on PC doesn't work like that, it's all "discless" 

 

the witcher 3

And why is no one copying discs? Might it be because Microsoft spent millions on security and DRM for the system? So wouldn't being able to remove having to spend that money at all be a good thing?

 

I've said it many times in the past, the ultimate goal for all the large publishers and studios is 100% streaming. I'm not even talking about digital only games as those can still be pirated if the system security is breached, I'm talking about users having no other choice than streaming games. Consoles will be dumb terminals with enough power to stream and the cost will be moved over to buying subscription services instead. This kills piracy entirely, kills the used market entirely, kills mods entirely and kills the console hacking scene entirely plus it makes the hardware more affordable. There is literally no downside for them.

 

Obviously we're not at that place yet but this is an important first step, get users used to not having discs now before they make the swap to streaming only, probably midway through the 2020s. You talk about piracy as though because its not a problem now it never will be. There are private Xbone exploits that exist, afaik nothing to major (which is why there's no plans to release anything afaik) but that might not always be the case. Think about the long term plan, removing discs removes half the problem and not allowing customers access to game files at all removes the problem entirely. It's money saved for literally nothing.

[asus killer]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

And why is no one copying discs? Might it be because Microsoft spent millions on security and DRM for the system? So wouldn't being able to remove having to spend that money at all be a good thing?

 

I've said it many times in the past, the ultimate goal for all the large publishers and studios is 100% streaming. I'm not even talking about digital only games as those can still be pirated if the system security is breached, I'm talking about users having no other choice than streaming games. Consoles will be dumb terminals with enough power to stream and the cost will be moved over to buying subscription services instead. This kills piracy entirely, kills the used market entirely, kills mods entirely and kills the console hacking scene entirely plus it makes the hardware more affordable. There is literally no downside for them.

 

Obviously we're not at that place yet but this is an important first step, get users used to not having discs now before they make the swap to streaming only, probably midway through the 2020s. You talk about piracy as though because its not a problem now it never will be. There are private Xbone exploits that exist, afaik nothing to major (which is why there's no plans to release anything afaik) but that might not always be the case. Think about the long term plan, removing discs removes half the problem and not allowing customers access to game files at all removes the problem entirely. It's money saved for literally nothing.

all they had to do was to not do stupid hardware design mistakes.

But aren't you contradiction yourself, why is there a need for streaming to stop piracy on consoles and dumb consoles, both xbox one and ps4 have no piracy. I do get the future argument, but the exploits out there both for one and PS4 do not allow to play games as they do not allow full access and can be patch (where patched) by software updates very different from the holes in the 360 like jtag that basically made the console open for piracy and no way to patch it latter.

Again all they need is to not make stupid hardware mistakes and all points to it being the case.

 

In PC terms i do get the streaming as an answer to piracy but there you have the hardware problem, people in PC want to be in control of their hardware, that will never work.

 

Streaming is not the answer, always online and games as service is. Kills piracy and brings them more money. That will be the future. And even if you sell a traditional game you do a good multiplayer and make more money from it than sales of the game itself, gta v is a good example.

[Misanthrope]

23 hours ago, Furkmyster said:

For the PC crowd that has Steam and Origin, what is a disc drive?  I haven't had an optical drive in my PC for almost 6 years now.

I stopped using them since I started using steam myself and according to the stats it was at least 9.3 years ago

[Blademaster91]

23 hours ago, Furkmyster said:

For the PC crowd that has Steam and Origin, what is a disc drive?  I haven't had an optical drive in my PC for almost 6 years now.

I'll still use the occasional CD or DVD with an external drive, but I haven't used discs for games in a few years. It helps to install it from a disc if you have slow internet but the DLC that soon comes after a game release can be as large as the game itself.

[Bcat00]

Great, I stopped using disks for my console long ago and regretted buying some switch games on cartridges

[Master Disaster]

4 hours ago, asus killer said:

all they had to do was to not do stupid hardware design mistakes.

But aren't you contradiction yourself, why is there a need for streaming to stop piracy on consoles and dumb consoles, both xbox one and ps4 have no piracy. I do get the future argument, but the exploits out there both for one and PS4 do not allow to play games as they do not allow full access and can be patch (where patched) by software updates very different from the holes in the 360 like jtag that basically made the console open for piracy and no way to patch it latter.

Again all they need is to not make stupid hardware mistakes and all points to it being the case.

 

In PC terms i do get the streaming as an answer to piracy but there you have the hardware problem, people in PC want to be in control of their hardware, that will never work.

 

Streaming is not the answer, always online and games as service is. Kills piracy and brings them more money. That will be the future. And even if you sell a traditional game you do a good multiplayer and make more money from it than sales of the game itself, gta v is a good example.

Here's what I think they're doing, they're testing the waters to see if the market is ready for no discs yet. If this thing sells well then they'll make Scarlett discless, if it doesn't then they'll do 2 versions of Scarlett, one with disc one without and when they do the mid cycle refresh they'll drop the disc drive. Either way Scarlett will be the last generation (at least from Microsoft) where you can buy games and not rent them. Nothing you said contradicts this, live service can still exist through streaming and multiplayer can still exist through streaming.

 

Btw there are publicly available exploits for the PS4 which allow piracy upto Firmware 4.4x and private exploits exist upto 4.6x.

 

On the PC side of things I fully expect it to go "full" streaming eventually but not as quickly and not full either. They'll do consoles first because closed market means easy to manipulate then the larger houses & studios will go streaming only on PC (The EAs, Ubisofts, Warner Bros, Activision's etc) but you are correct that they'll never make PCs fully streaming only. The simple fact is if there's only one way to play a game anybody wanting to play has 2 options, use the only available option or don't play it at all.

 

You say streaming isn't the answer yet the evidence contradicts that. EA, Ubi, Microsoft & Sony all have streaming plans available right now. Subscription gaming is the future and as with everything in the AAA gaming industry, we don't have a say in it.

[Donut417]

8 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

You say streaming isn't the answer yet the evidence contradicts that. EA, Ubi, Microsoft & Sony all have streaming plans available right now. Subscription gaming is the future and as with everything in the AAA gaming industry, we don't have a say in it.

These companies are signing their own death warrants then. Because ISP's have a different plan. And that is why "Streaming games" is a bad idea. Many ISP's have data limits where they deprioritize packets have a threshold is reached OR have caps with overages. So do these gaming studios expect ISP's to give them preferential treatment? I hope EA knows they will be expected to pay the Netflix tax on the Comcast network. Because as it stands ISP's are the ones who hold the cards when it comes to streaming, and these companies WILL be expected to pay the toll or be told to fuck off. You going to pay $12 a month for a service that your ISP is going to throttle and make the experience shit? I highly doubt it. 

 

Also what about the poor fucks who either have 3 Mbps DSL, WISP, LTE or satellite internet? They just going to leave those gamers behind and tell them to fuck off? Because thats a great message to send to your customers. Its this attitude that I really stopped buying AAA games. I find the indie devs care more about their customers then the bigger guys do. 

[Master Disaster]

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

These companies are signing their own death warrants then. Because ISP's have a different plan. And that is why "Streaming games" is a bad idea. Many ISP's have data limits where they deprioritize packets have a threshold is reached OR have caps with overages. So do these gaming studios expect ISP's to give them preferential treatment? I hope EA knows they will be expected to pay the Netflix tax on the Comcast network. Because as it stands ISP's are the ones who hold the cards when it comes to streaming, and these companies WILL be expected to pay the toll or be told to fuck off. You going to pay $12 a month for a service that your ISP is going to throttle and make the experience shit? I highly doubt it. 

 

Also what about the poor fucks who either have 3 Mbps DSL, WISP, LTE or satellite internet? They just going to leave those gamers behind and tell them to fuck off? Because thats a great message to send to your customers. Its this attitude that I really stopped buying AAA games. I find the indie devs care more about their customers then the bigger guys do. 

You talk about this problem like it doesn't already exist yet it hasn't stopped Netflix, Hulu, Rakuten, NowTV etc from existing and making money. For every person that has a bad connection theres another 5 with super fast fibre and do you honestly think MS care if Johnny can't get a good connection with his 2Mb connection? EA had a guy who legitimately stood on stage and told BF fans if they don't like BF5 then don't buy it so to answer your question, yes, they will leave these people behind and happily do so because they'll still be making money and losing a small percentage of their playbase is worth less to them than destroying piracy, mods and the used market in one go.

 

Also let's not forget, net neutrality is a US problem and the US isn't the entire world.

 

Lastly this is a problem you guys are going to encounter in more than just gaming. With the rise of 4K comes 4K TV and the reality is, streaming 4K TV is the only realistic way of mass broadcasting it. There simply isn't enough available bandwidth to send it over the air for more than 3 or 4 simultaneous broadcasts, satalite is one option but that's expensive and not very common in the US (here in Europe we use satalite more than Cable) and Cable is basically streaming over a data line anyway. Gaming might be the least of your worries, you guys might be choosing which TV channels to receive because you can't have them all in 4K.

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

doesn't already exist yet it hasn't stopped Netflix

Thats because Netflix paid Comcast a shit load of money to make things work better. You do know that right? Which is why in my previous post I called it the "Netflix tax". Thats part of the reason Netflix had to raise prices. Because of Comcast being a cunt. But lets face it, all of Comcast's customers think they were cunts before this anyway. 

 

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

another 5 with super fast fibre and do you honestly think MS care if Johnny can't get a good connection with his 2Mb connection?

Fiber is not that common in the US. Unless you live in a rich area or in a large city. SHIT even New York City has had issues with Verizon violating agreements with the city to wire it up with FIOS. So if that any indication of the issue. There has also been a push in the last few years of people moving to Rural areas in the US, which means shitty internet connections. Guess what.... If the customers can access the product then the company that makes the product wont make as much money. So then EA and the rest of them will raise prices to make up for that.... You know who else has raised prices to make up for loss? Pay TV providers, ask them how thats working for them. Not going so well. Not when people discovered they can still get locals over the air for free.  

 

8 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

satalite is one option but that's expensive and not very common in the US (here in Europe we use satalite more than Cable)

Not talking about Satellite TV, talking about Satellite internet and you are lucky if you can do 720p on that shit. So dont even talk about 4K if you go this type of internet. You need min of Cable or Fiber to really get 4K going. Also Satellite TV is very common in the US, ever hear about DirecTV or Dish network, they heavily compete with cable providers. Though Cable has the one benefit of not going out when it rains or snows. 

 

11 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

you guys might be choosing which TV channels to receive because you can't have them all in 4K.

Honestly by the time the ATSC 3.0 standard comes to any type of reality I would expect the US government to have sold off all the broadcast TV frequencies to wireless providers. TMobile for instance bought a good portion of 600 Mhz. Also with the way millennial's have pushed the markets on TV, I expect live TV to be a thing of the past. People dont sit down anymore and watch things at a predetermined amount of time. This watch things when its convenient for them. In reality 4K may never be offered over the air, and personally I dont give a shit if it is. The 720p and 1080 broadcasts I get are good enough. I watch maybe a handful of shows and mostly watch TV to go to sleep. I watch more content on Youtube, Twitch, Netflix and Piracy than any thing else. 

[asus killer]

12 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Here's what I think they're doing, they're testing the waters to see if the market is ready for no discs yet. If this thing sells well then they'll make Scarlett discless, if it doesn't then they'll do 2 versions of Scarlett, one with disc one without and when they do the mid cycle refresh they'll drop the disc drive. Either way Scarlett will be the last generation (at least from Microsoft) where you can buy games and not rent them. Nothing you said contradicts this, live service can still exist through streaming and multiplayer can still exist through streaming.

 

Btw there are publicly available exploits for the PS4 which allow piracy upto Firmware 4.4x and private exploits exist upto 4.6x.

 

On the PC side of things I fully expect it to go "full" streaming eventually but not as quickly and not full either. They'll do consoles first because closed market means easy to manipulate then the larger houses & studios will go streaming only on PC (The EAs, Ubisofts, Warner Bros, Activision's etc) but you are correct that they'll never make PCs fully streaming only. The simple fact is if there's only one way to play a game anybody wanting to play has 2 options, use the only available option or don't play it at all.

 

You say streaming isn't the answer yet the evidence contradicts that. EA, Ubi, Microsoft & Sony all have streaming plans available right now. Subscription gaming is the future and as with everything in the AAA gaming industry, we don't have a say in it.

Microsoft or Sony don't really need to test the waters, they have all the numbers, of games sold and dlc (all discless). They know exactly how many games are sold disc and discless, they can go from there. I imagine you can't avoid going online this days, even if just for a firmware update to play the discless game.

Two things, for some folks this will mean less games purchased as they count on reselling their games on used markets, and also as mentioned it may really impact someone who has monthly bandwith limits, you may not be able to buy RDR2 at launch for example.

[WolfDeville]

Not a good idea unless they aim to make USB drives as a replacement.

[RuffRuffmcgruff]

On the brighter side of the story, a lot less plastic is about to be used for the production of media.

[ravenshrike]

15 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

You talk about this problem like it doesn't already exist yet it hasn't stopped Netflix, Hulu, Rakuten, NowTV etc from existing and making money. 

Except those work by buffering content. Streaming games require a continuous stable connection both ways. Even in the middle of the DFW area that is not easy to come by. People won't put up with their game quitting out every 15 minutes.

[Maticks]

This should send EB Games out of business...

[GoodBytes]

3 minutes ago, Maticks said:

This should send EB Games out of business...

It doesn't work that way. Retailers will not have the console, any console for that matter from the company, nor games.

They are still massive amount of people who buy games and console in physical stores. Console manufactures, and game publishers, always need to cater to them.

[Maticks]

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

It doesn't work that way. Retailers will not have the console, any console for that matter from the company, nor games.

They are still massive amount of people who buy games and console in physical stores. Console manufactures, and game publishers, always need to cater to them.

They said the same thing about Video Ezy with DVD rentals?