Did Nvidia get screwed over? Or did Nvidia screw us over?

[suchamoneypit]

On 11/13/2018 at 12:03 PM, Galion said:

 Did Nvidia get screwed over by developers? 

You can't just introduce an entirely new tech that requires new work to implement (which costs dev time, which costs money), and expect every developer to magically start implementing it in everything. It would be the responsibility of NVIDIA to get that started and get the tech adopted unless its some vastly superior tech that everyone would want to use anyways (and it isn't currently). For the same reasons and buyer with some sense should have understood that when they went to shell out $1000 on a brand new tech that was barely supported, and even planned support was with a very small list.

[TahoeDust]

1 hour ago, BuckGup said:

Lol until you turn on ray tracing and it's as fast as a 1060. Wait ray tracing is why you are spending $400 more than last gen. Which leads me back to my point. If games supporting ray tracing come out this decade and you own a RTX card and don't use it that's absolutely hilarious 

I bought it because the 1080ti I have did not perform as well as I wanted at the resolution and refresh I prefer in the games I play...PERIOD.  Raytracing played absolutely ZERO role in my decision.  

 

Anyone that bought this card thinking ray tracing was going to be a good option anytime soon made a mistake...this is the only point we agree on.

 

It is so incredibly weird to me that someone would go out of their way to try to make people feel shitty about their purchase.  I feel sorry for you.

[pas008]

14 hours ago, CTR640 said:

I wanted to go for the 2080Ti but all that nonsense about ray tracing made me change my mind. Also the price is absurd, and I CAN pay for the 2080Ti but do I want to fork out that amount of money just for ray tracing and no competition? Hell no! Instead, I got the 1080Ti for €680. nVidia has become way too greedy they are thinking of many ways to increase their greed and profits and one of them is ray tracing. Want ray tracing? You have pay for absurd prices. I hope the devs will refuse so ray tracing can die a slow death just like with HairWorks and PhysX and then hopefully we can get raw and true performance.

@underlined

new tech on top of the best tech will always cost more

 

@bolded

what is wrong with you?

you dont like better visuals

true performance isnt only fps

true performance is better visuals too

 

what the fuck is wrong with people these days

 

lets all play 8bit nintendo games because we can get 9000 fps

8 hours ago, GamerDude said:

I was over at guru3d reading about BF V with RT, huge performance hit when enabled.....LOL!

have you seen the visuals

2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Have you seen the numbers with RTX turned on lol? The only card that is faster than the 1000 series is the 2080ti and not even by that much. You are paying for questionable, immature technology, that has yet to materialize after months of delays.

read above

 

plus  quoted from an article cause i'm lazy

Easier for Developers

Ray tracing enables lifelike lighting and shadows that make rendered graphics appear much more realistic. But more importantly, ray-traced lighting and shadows are easier for game developers to implement once the groundwork is in place.

 

With existing lighting techniques in rasterized graphics, a 3D artist must manually introduce custom lightmaps, shadow maps, and ambient occlusion maps for each asset in a game. With raytracing enabled, most of that work is done automatically as a natural reaction to using physics-based lighting.

[GamerDude]

9 minutes ago, pas008 said:

have you seen the visuals

I haven't tried it myself though I do have an RTX 2080 Ti, not really interested in BF V anyway. But IF I were to get it, I'd probably play it w/o RT enabled because I want better framerate, and the monitor I have does 3440x1440, so RT is off the table. As I'd said, I didn't buy the card for the promised RT support, rather, it's the fastest consumer level single GPU gaming card around.

[mlitttler89]

How is this still going?

[Galion]

18 minutes ago, mlitttler89 said:

How is this still going?

I don't know, and they answered my question already 

[Sfekke]

Both, we paid for a feature which we didn't see on release but kept getting reassured would be with us soon.

NVIDIA for the R&D of the tech, although I doubt it would've ran at a high enough framerate to make it worthwhile; perhaps why they scrapped it. Imagine a battlefield game at 15-25 FPS; I'd like to not imagine that.

 

It was a reason to sell their RTX cards, besides that pricing is so high they don't a have a leg to stand on.

 

 

Edit :

 

1 hour ago, Galion said:

I don't know, and they answered my question already 

Everyone is adding their own 2 cents I guess, some with a more elaborate explanation others keep it shorter.

The moment you bring up AMD/NVIDIA and a failed product or partially failing one .. you get debate; I can imagine this thread is going to go off-topic in a few hours and get closed in the next day.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Sfekke
Extra information.

[straight_stewie]

So the software is going to take a few years to catch up. It always does. The "RTCores" are not just this magical thing that is supposed to just automagically make raytracing easier for developers. It's just supposed to provide another tool in hardware to make the task easier. (I would really like to write a long, in depth explanation of the cores architecture, but Nvidia won't reveal it. That isn't my only gripe with Nvidia not revealing things) We won't see widespread use of it, or it's full potential, until all of the popular graphics libraries are updated to compile for them, and have been proven stable.

I'm more interested in the Tensor Cores. They are really just FP16 matrix multiply adders that mAdd two 4x4 matrices of floating point 16 or less. It's really quite a simple idea and I'm interested to see how it performs.

 

On 11/13/2018 at 11:03 AM, Galion said:

the game developers did not implement the "ray tracing" in Battlefield 5.

And there are news of other games dropping the "ray tracing" implementation, such as FF15 have chosen to drop "ray tracing"

So there are a couple of points here. Stop putting ray tracing in quotes. It is an actual thing that Nvidia's marketing department certainly did not make up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_tracing_(graphics)

The second point is that we have to discount once a year or every other year games. The developers for these games will almost never hook onto brand new technology (especially if it occurs after the architecture stage of development). That's just a side effect of how these games are developed. Take Call of Duty as an example. It takes three years to develop, there are three different firms that work on it, and there is a new release every year. That means that immediately after one of the publishers releases their game, the team for that game starts working on their next rendition. This extremely time constrained development cycle does not allow for architecture or technology changes mid development.

That problem still holds for studios that only release a game every 2 to 3 cycles, like Battlefield. They are still on the same time schedule, they just don't have multiple studios working on the development of the title, so the game only gets released every 2 to 3 years. These developers will not grab onto new, unproven technologies mid cycle.

 

[Dversity]

7 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Lol until you turn on ray tracing and it's as fast as a 1060. Wait ray tracing is why you are spending $400 more than last gen. Which leads me back to my point. If games supporting ray tracing come out this decade and you own a RTX card and don't use it that's absolutely hilarious 

Haha what's up with this guy? He's alone trying to make people who bought 2080 Ti to feel like shit.  I havent seen anyone this outrageous about what people spend their money on. 

 

Why are you so god damn mad at us who can afford a 2080 Ti anyway? Be mad at Nvidia for being a dick of a company instead. Thats what monopoly does. It's what it is. Sometimes you just have to accept the defeat. 

[straight_stewie]

2 hours ago, Dversity said:

Thats what monopoly does. It's what it is.

I'd hesitate to call Nvidia a monopoly, especially in reference to consumer cards. Overall they hold a ~70% market share while AMD holds a ~30% market share. Keep in mind that this is overall and includes data centers which, almost exclusively, use Nvidia cards. If we take out the enterprise market AMD gains back quite a bit of the market share.

Sources: 

• https://wccftech.com/nvidia-amd-discrete-gpu-market-share-q2-2018/
• https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/276425-charting-9-years-of-gpu-market-shifts-between-intel-amd-and-nvidia

[CTR640]

9 hours ago, pas008 said:

@underlined

new tech on top of the best tech will always cost more

 

@bolded

what is wrong with you?

you dont like better visuals

true performance isnt only fps

true performance is better visuals too

 

what the fuck is wrong with people these days

 

lets all play 8bit nintendo games because we can get 9000 fps

have you seen the visuals

read above

 

plus  quoted from an article cause i'm lazy

Easier for Developers

Ray tracing enables lifelike lighting and shadows that make rendered graphics appear much more realistic. But more importantly, ray-traced lighting and shadows are easier for game developers to implement once the groundwork is in place.

 

With existing lighting techniques in rasterized graphics, a 3D artist must manually introduce custom lightmaps, shadow maps, and ambient occlusion maps for each asset in a game. With raytracing enabled, most of that work is done automatically as a natural reaction to using physics-based lighting.

It's not up to you to decide wether people wants/prefer performance or visuals.

The prices of the RTX are simply way too absurd and overpriced it's not even worth it, why paying that shitton of cash just to ray trac crap? If you want to pay more than a grand for a GPU, be my guest, go buy it. As for me, I refuse to pay for that absurd price just because the companies want it and for ray tracing.

[Envit0]

@CTR640  wait what? And it is up to you to decide that RTX prices are absurd and not worth it? You sound ridiculous. Ever thought of why price difference between low tier and mid tier produxts is low while between high and very high-end stuff difference is much higher? Its because R&D and materials to produce something even more powerful when it already is, costs a lot more. 2080ti is 25-30% higher of what was already amazingly high performance. This is absolutely understandable from financial perspective. 

[jones177]

 

[pas008]

2 hours ago, CTR640 said:

It's not up to you to decide wether people wants/prefer performance or visuals.

The prices of the RTX are simply way too absurd and overpriced it's not even worth it, why paying that shitton of cash just to ray trac crap? If you want to pay more than a grand for a GPU, be my guest, go buy it. As for me, I refuse to pay for that absurd price just because the companies want it and for ray tracing.

visuals is performance for starters

maybe someone should look at what the definition of performance is

or should we all start playing 8bit nintendo games cause we get 9000 fps

 

absurd pricing? we have had 1000 dollar cards for 6 yrs now 1200 dollar for over 2 yrs

 

top tier shit isnt meant for everyone

 

 

[BuckGup]

7 hours ago, Dversity said:

Haha what's up with this guy? He's alone trying to make people who bought 2080 Ti to feel like shit.  I havent seen anyone this outrageous about what people spend their money on. 

 

Why are you so god damn mad at us who can afford a 2080 Ti anyway? Be mad at Nvidia for being a dick of a company instead. Thats what monopoly does. It's what it is. Sometimes you just have to accept the defeat. 

You make it a monopoly by supporting it lol. If you didn't buy GPUs that cost as much as high end PCs

[BuckGup]

12 hours ago, pas008 said:

 

I get what ray tracing does it's just the technology isn't matured enough to be charging $1200 for it. With the introduction of so many new parts besides just a GPU core the amount of tuning and changes for the next gen will be significantly more than normal. Also ray tracing can be done on an ASIC co processor 10X more efficiently at about 1/12th the cost. So the early adopters fee is a larger gamble this generation than most.

[BuckGup]

14 hours ago, TahoeDust said:

I bought it because the 1080ti I have did not perform as well as I wanted at the resolution and refresh I prefer in the games I play...PERIOD.  Raytracing played absolutely ZERO role in my decision.  

 

Anyone that bought this card thinking ray tracing was going to be a good option anytime soon made a mistake...this is the only point we agree on.

 

It is so incredibly weird to me that someone would go out of their way to try to make people feel shitty about their purchase.  I feel sorry for you.

That's hilarious LOL

[xAcid9]

1 hour ago, jones177 said:

Spoiler

 

 

around @4:10, i had a good giggle and then a little sad. wtf is that? water? ice? mirror? he said it's a large puddle but everyone seem to look like running on the surface... jesus. 
also that branch drop look really dramatic but there is no fucking splash. what happened to my water physx?

 

also also, they only ray traced the reflection. AO, shadow, lighting is still using "traditional method". 

[pas008]

25 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

I get what ray tracing does it's just the technology isn't matured enough to be charging $1200 for it. With the introduction of so many new parts besides just a GPU core the amount of tuning and changes for the next gen will be significantly more than normal. Also ray tracing can be done on an ASIC co processor 10X more efficiently at about 1/12th the cost. So the early adopters fee is a larger gamble this generation than most.

1200 has been the top tier card for 2 yrs now and 1000 top tier 6yrs ago

 

if rt can be done on another co proc then do it up show us or show us another company doing it for 1/12th the price right now

[daimonie]

32 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

I get what ray tracing does it's just the technology isn't matured enough to be charging $1200 for it. With the introduction of so many new parts besides just a GPU core the amount of tuning and changes for the next gen will be significantly more than normal. Also ray tracing can be done on an ASIC co processor 10X more efficiently at about 1/12th the cost. So the early adopters fee is a larger gamble this generation than most.

Behold, the number 5. 

This is a random number I thought of, and the price I want GPUs to be. Much like the way you're telling NVidia their product is too expensive.

I'm not 100% happy about the situation. But the cards *are* better performers, and they a lot of extras. Those extras might not seem worth it to you - but after several years of development, that tech is worth some money as well. 

If the price of the tech was lower, but the games weren't out yet, you would've complained too. Releasing a brand new technology is always a losing situation, it seems.

[BuckGup]

1 hour ago, pas008 said:

1200 has been the top tier card for 2 yrs now and 1000 top tier 6yrs ago

 

if rt can be done on another co proc then do it up show us or show us another company doing it for 1/12th the price right now

1200 was for the titan lineup. The top of the line consumer is the titan. And that’s $3000. The titan XP was 1200 but this is the to variant. Also the company doing it for 1/12th the price is called Imagination  

https://www.imgtec.com/blog/powervr-gr6500-ray-tracing/

They have been doing it since 2014 on mobile grade GPUs

[BuckGup]

1 hour ago, daimonie said:

Behold, the number 5. 

This is a random number I thought of, and the price I want GPUs to be. Much like the way you're telling NVidia their product is too expensive.

I'm not 100% happy about the situation. But the cards *are* better performers, and they a lot of extras. Those extras might not seem worth it to you - but after several years of development, that tech is worth some money as well. 

If the price of the tech was lower, but the games weren't out yet, you would've complained too. Releasing a brand new technology is always a losing situation, it seems.

If it cost the same as last gen no one would have been complaining as the 1000 series would have made zero sense. But the 2080 and 1070 performing the same as the 1000 series makes them valuable still. 

[jones177]

25 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

around @4:10, i had a good giggle and then a little sad. wtf is that? water? ice? mirror? he said it's a large puddle but everyone seem to look like running on the surface... jesus. 
also that branch drop look really dramatic but there is no fucking splash. what happened to my water physx?

 

also also, they only ray traced the reflection. AO, shadow, lighting is still using "traditional method". 

It is early days.

 

My career depended on me being able to bring down raytrace rendering times. My edge was my 3D game object design experience.

Once talented people get their head around this technology it will be a wonder to behold.  

 

Raytracing only really interacts with procedural mapping(mathematical description of the surface of an object). The easiest and hardest part to do are reflections. It is easy because it is a copy & paste thing you do in program like 3D max. The hard part is that the type of ray tracing Nvidia uses is unpredictable & will alway need traditional methods to make it work.

Nvidia uses multi bounce recursive ray tracing. This works well most of the time but falls apart when two reflective transparent objects overlap.  For example looking through a car windshield at at the passenger door window. The passenger window will not reflect properly. Only path ray tracing can do that. The workaround is to use traditional methods and fake it.

 

All this is fun stuff to me.  

 

 

 

[pas008]

30 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

1200 was for the titan lineup. The top of the line consumer is the titan. And that’s $3000. The titan XP was 1200 but this is the to variant. Also the company doing it for 1/12th the price is called Imagination  

https://www.imgtec.com/blog/powervr-gr6500-ray-tracing/

They have been doing it since 2014 on mobile grade GPUs

 

what denoising is imagination using for real time?

wheres the source on the price of their denoising technique?

oh wait is imagination even working on this anymore?

 

so add this in with hybrid of  rasterization  hmm

 

[Acceptive]

Nvidia fucked us over.  They are raising their prices for no reason.  I wish AMD would actually make something good for once GPU wise but they just can't.