Intel reportedly asked Microsoft not to use ARM for the Surface Go

[captain_to_fire]

Source: The Verge

 

Quote

...and lots of people have wondered why Microsoft didn’t opt for Qualcomm’s Snapdragon processors and Windows on ARM. Paul Thurrott reports that Microsoft wanted to use an ARM processor for the Surface Go, but that Intel intervened.

 

Intel reportedly “petitioned Microsoft heavily” to use its Pentium Gold processors instead of ARM ones. It’s not clear why Microsoft didn’t push ahead with its ARM plans for Surface Go, but in my own experience the latest Snapdragon chips simply don’t have the performance and compatibility to match Intel on laptops just yet. Microsoft has been working hard to improve this though, despite Intel’s threats it would sue competitors like Qualcomm if they attempt to emulate Intel’s x86 instruction set architecture.

 

I can think of few reasons why Intel intervened or should I say "begged" Microsoft to use the Pentium Gold CPU instead of ARM:

• Intel knows that ARM + Windows 10 = shitty performance (especially with SD835) and they want to shake Microsoft out of their tunnel vision. At the moment, ARM powered W10 tablets sucks.
• But Intel knows that ARM-Windows 10 tablets won't suck forever and they definitely see ARM, especially Qualcomm which is poised to encroach on Intel's ultrabooks. Remember that later this year, the SD850 will be available and next year it's the SD 1000 chip with 12W TDP which will definitely go head to head with Intel's U/Y series chips.

Let's not forget the fact that even Apple is rumored to use ARM in 2019. At the moment, the 2018 MacBook Pros still use Intel chips but for hardware based security, they're not using Intel's built in encryption acceleration but they moved that to the custom T2 chip (Apple's ARM chip) which contains the Secure Enclave co-processor (like the one in the iPhone) and also handles the SSD controller that's why enabling FileVault full disk encryption on the 2018 MacBook Pros offer very negligible performance penalties while keeping data secure at rest not to mention that all 2018 MacBook Pros have file level encryption enabled by default.

 

While I'm pretty sure that the 2018 refresh of the MacBook Air will still use Intel processors, just a few months ago Apple hired former Intel engineers in Oregon.

 

Plus Apple is making iOS apps available to macOS natively. Perhaps all Apple needed to do is make macOS universal binary again just like in 2006.. If Microsoft and Apple can deliver very good performance and battery life with ARM in 2019, Intel might need to go back to the drawing board.

Edited August 25, 2018 by colonel_mortis
Day theme friendly

[DrMacintosh]

 

My Apples plan is almost complete..... 

[PlayStation 2]

Intel also knows that Microsoft makes for some good money. If Apple bucks Intel even in a small selection of laptops that's a large revenue stream zapped from them.

[Techstorm970]

21 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

 

Let's not forget the fact that even Apple is rumored to use ARM in 2019. At the moment, the 2018 MacBook Pros still use Intel chips but for hardware based security, they're not using Intel's built in encryption acceleration but they moved that to the custom T2 chip (Apple's ARM chip) which contains the Secure Enclave co-processor (like the one in the iPhone) and also handles the SSD controller that's why enabling FileVault full disk encryption on the 2018 MacBook Pros offer very negligible performance penalties while keeping data secure at rest not to mention that all 2018 MacBook Pros have file level encryption enabled by default.

Holy run-on sentence!  I lost my breath while reading that!!!

Spoiler

@ARikozuM, are you happy with me?

 

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, Techstorm970 said:

Holy run-on sentence!  I lost my breath while reading that!!!

  Hide contents

@ARikozuM, are you happy with me?

 

You shall possibly be saved at the end-times. 

[Sakkura]

I don't think picking x86-64 is about getting more performance; at the low end, ARM should be fast enough.

 

The problem is ARM requires all the software to be recompiled. It's one of the major reasons Windows RT and the early non-Pro Surfaces failed. Microsoft IMHO made the right choice for the Surface Go, and if that also happens to be good for Intel's business, well... okay?

[GoodBytes]

I think Microsoft would have went with the Intel CPU in any case. I speculate, as I said in the past about the Surface Go, the company wants to see what is the lowest performance that most people would be happy with, to see when to actually officially announce Windows 10 on ARM with laptop, and not keep it under wraps, with its soft launch.

 

The video posted on top about the ASUS laptop, is the only I see where the reviewer is very negative about it, then again, this particular device he has doesn't have an SSD, which affects the overall experience of the system. You can have the nicest Threadripper or Core i9 CPU, but if you use a craptatsic 5400RPM HDD, I don't think you'll notice much performance out of your CPU in normal typical system usage.. probably feel like a Core 2 Duo to be honest. And Chrome is the worst web browser for touch screen support and extensively demanding, for little performance increase over Firefox. Looking at the Surface Go, and personally installing Windows 10 on system powered by Potato Powered-PC(TM) CPUs. it seems that Edge is the better web browser for slow specs system, at least on most sites that I tried, but I am looking at overall experience including smooth scrolling and zooming, and not benchmark scores of page render time, which Edge is definitely lacking beside Java-Script performance. (Firefox, I would place second, and Chrome last). Although, I really should try Opera, as it is Chromium but apparently, very well optimized. Maybe something to test this week-end. on my Atom based system. To be clear, I am not saying that Windows on ARM on a Snapdragon 835 is amazing, and the performance is definitely slower than the Pentium Gold in the Surface Go.

 

But anyway, point is, Surface Go, seems to deliver enough performance that please most people who re genuinely interested in this device, and i think Microsoft knows now what to aim for, and is what they will go with. So, would the Snapdragon 850 deliver this? I don't think so, as it is not that much faster than the 835. 'cause in the end it is really a 845 that is is tweaked a bit. If anything, performance boost will more for ARM64 programs, so Edge will shine more (unless someone makes a branch of Chromium or Firefox compiled for ARM64 instead of x86). The Snapdragon 1000 seems to be where all the efforts from Qualcomm is being placed at, and i think this is what Microsoft aims to. So I expect the Surface Go 2 to be powered by the SD 1000.

 

 

[GoodBytes]

16 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

I don't think picking x86-64 is about getting more performance; at the low end, ARM should be fast enough.

 

The problem is ARM requires all the software to be recompiled. It's one of the major reasons Windows RT and the early non-Pro Surfaces failed. Microsoft IMHO made the right choice for the Surface Go, and if that also happens to be good for Intel's business, well... okay?

Actually, Windows RT didn't allow you to run, at least not officially (complex hack needed), apps outside of the Store, and at the time, the Store was Metro framework apps ONLY. And Microsoft pretty much screed up Metro app framework, hence why it was scrapped for UWP in Windows 10. So even, if by magic, there was developer interest, Metro is so limited, that it would not allow any more complex app to be done. Heck, the device had a desktop, just because of Office, and Office mobile for Android and iOS was ready for a long time, but Ballmer blocked it release until a Metro version of Office was made... but Microsoft could not. Metro was too limited. You can download VLC for Windows 10 on ARM (native ARM64) from their web site.

 

Microsoft learned its lesson, and now has an open platform thanks to not only 32-bit x86 translator, but also get programs outside of the Store (once you switch to Windows 10 non S mode, which is free, "a mouse click", and no restart/install process needed).

[Jurrunio]

Problem with going for Intel CPUs is that they are in a hell of recently discovered exploits. Using Intel likely means more work in updating the Surface Go's operating system, or else it will be vulnerable (let's not talk about performance hits, if you want performance you shouldn't use a tablet)

[schwellmo92]

Am I the only one that just sees white space in the OP? I can see embedded videos but just blankness for everything else.

[Soppro]

9 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

Am I the only one that just sees white space in the OP? I can see embedded videos but just blankness for everything else.

Yeah looks like the text is white 

[mr moose]

You know, I'd be bloody surprised if Intel didn't at least consider asking if not actually ask. 

[captain_to_fire]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

You know, I'd be bloody surprised if Intel didn't at least consider asking if not actually ask. 

I can’t help but think someone from Intel was close to begging in their knees while typing the email in order to dissuade Microsoft from using ARM 

1 hour ago, schwellmo92 said:

Am I the only one that just sees white space in the OP? I can see embedded videos but just blankness for everything else.

I’ll be changing it now for day theme users 

 

edit: I can’t do it right now because I’m on my phone. Maybe @GoodBytes or any mod can fix it. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by captain_to_fire

[Crunchy Dragon]

19 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Maybe @GoodBytes or any mod can fix it. 

I don't use the Day Theme

 

On topic:

It would be really interesting to see Apple switch to ARM-based CPUs.

[asus killer]

being in the hand of a single CPU manufacturer for years and decides to perpetuate the cycle makes little sense, even if the ARM alternative is costly at first.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

I don't use the Day Theme

 

On topic:

It would be really interesting to see Apple switch to ARM-based CPUs.

Around WWDC 2019 we can expect a MacBook 12" refresh and we could see ARM processors as soon as then to replace the Intel M3 line. 

[captain_to_fire]

5 hours ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

I don't use the Day Theme

But day theme users might protest against OP discrimination to day theme users. I still can’t edit it because I’m still using my phone 

[jagdtigger]

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

nd personally installing Windows 10 on system powered by Potato Powered-PC(TM) CPUs.

Big mistake, windows is way too clunky and resource hungry for those IMO...  (Personal experience with a crappy hp 2in1 with atom CPU and emmc as storage.)

[GoodBytes]

56 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Big mistake, windows is way too clunky and resource hungry for those IMO...  (Personal experience with a crappy hp 2in1 with atom CPU and emmc as storage.)

People managed to install Windows 10 on ARM on Raspberry Pi 3.Despite the complete lack of any driver, the CPU doesn't go at 100%

[jagdtigger]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

People managed to install Windows 10 on ARM on Raspberry Pi 3.Despite the complete lack of any driver, the CPU doesn't go at 100%

Okay, linux(Kubuntu):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zcmq48jhdpo8y45/IMG_20180825_135046.jpg?dl=0

Windows(8.1, and its painfully slow at boot, it sits at a black screen for  half a minute before showing the lockscreen):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ifyfqi62eiv11ck/IMG_20180825_135916.jpg?dl=0

 

Well linux uses way less RAM(half of it, and 1/4 if we dont count the cache in). On the CPU side i would say that one is half.... Until WU decidedes its time to update that is, that will totally make it unusable .

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

Okay, linux(Kubuntu):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zcmq48jhdpo8y45/IMG_20180825_135046.jpg?dl=0

Windows(8.1, and its painfully slow at boot, it sits at a black screen for  half a minute before showing the lockscreen):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ifyfqi62eiv11ck/IMG_20180825_135916.jpg?dl=0

 

Well linux uses way less RAM(half of it, and 1/4 if we dont count the cache in). On the CPU side i would say that one is half.... Until WU decidedes its time to update that is, that will totally make it unusable .

RAM is meant to be used. And the quantity of RAM used doesn't necessarily translate to the end experience.

Windows is designed, since Vista, to balance RAM usage and process. Meaning, that Windows, while not going excessively, will consume more RAM, based on the amount of RAM you have. Same setup, a machine with 2GB of RAM, and one with 8GB of RAM, you'll see that Windows 10 will consume more RAM on the 8GB system. RAM is quick, SSD M.2 NVMe (assuming you even have that), is slow in comparison. The more things are loaded in RAM the more responsive the experience is.

 

[jagdtigger]

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

RAM is meant to be used. And the quantity of RAM used doesn't necessarily translate to the end experience.

Windows is designed, since Vista, to balance RAM usage and process. Meaning, that Windows, while not going excessively, will consume more RAM, based on the amount of RAM you have. Same setup, a machine with 2GB of RAM, and one with 8GB of RAM, you'll see that Windows 10 will consume more RAM on the 8GB system. RAM is quick, SSD M.2 NVMe (assuming you even have that), is slow in comparison. The more things are loaded in RAM the more responsive the experience is.

 

Yes it does, if you only have 4 GB and EMMC as storage(NVME is rare in these machines). Besides Windows actively using that 1 GB, the cache is actually 2,2GB. On the other hand linux uses like ~250MB actively, the rest is cache. It can make a big difference because of the slow storage.

[GoodBytes]

35 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yes it does, if you only have 4 GB and EMMC as storage(NVME is rare in these machines). Besides Windows actively using that 1 GB, the cache is actually 2,2GB. On the other hand linux uses like ~250MB actively, the rest is cache. It can make a big difference because of the slow storage.

Here is my system with 6GB of RAM:

 

Everything is closed. 2.6GB used.

 

Now I shutdown my system, remove 2 stick of RAM, bringing my system to 2GB of RAM. Started it up, and now:

 

0.7GB is being used. Nothing was disabled. Nothing was changed beside removing 2 stick of RAM out of my system.

 

 

Now I got y RAM back-in, and this is what I have:

 

 

Again, this is full features Windows 10, nothing was disabled, nothing was removed, Telemetry data full on (Insider build so I can't turn it off) I didn't cut out anything from the experience from a default install that you get when you install Windows 10. Unlike Linux where sure you can make it run on a system with 64MB of RAM, but you will be cutting features out, reducing visuals by using a different xWindows environment and so on. One can do similar with time and patience in disabling and removing a bunch of stuff from Windows 10.

 

[jagdtigger]

20 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

-snip-

What a heap of junk, it cant even properly display RAM usage.

[GoodBytes]

18 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

What a heap of junk, it cant even properly display RAM usage.

Riiiiight.