AMD's official "eff you GPP" response: A Gamer's Choice

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Biggerisbetter said:

. AMD cant sit idly by and not punish these companies. 

I don't think you will find anyone actually suggesting this.  We actually all want AMD to provide us with better options. 

 

[Arika]

1 hour ago, Biggerisbetter said:

Asus, MSI and Gigabyte are trying to hurt AMD's bottom-line. Its a calculated decision by these companies to provide exclusive branding for Nvida. 

thats not even close to being right.

 

 

i'm going to quote myself from the OEM topic about this.

Quote

the partners of the GPP aren't being prevented from selling AMD GPUs, NVidia just asked for a brand exclusive to NVidia. Asus ROG will be Nvidia. Asus AREZ is AMD. it's still Asus and they are still selling AMD gpus

 

brand exclusivity and product exclusivity are two completely different things

 

 

[Biggerisbetter]

38 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

thats not even close to being right.

 

 

i'm going to quote myself from the OEM topic about this.

 

brand exclusivity and product exclusivity are two completely different things

 

 

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Asus pulls some new BS naming scheme out of there ass, that no one has of heard before. While nvida takes a well known and respected ROG branding. And you think this does not affect AMD. I never said or implied that Asus were no longer going to sell AMD gpus. I'm talking about the "ASUS ROG brand". Which will be an nvida exclusive ROG branded gpus

 

Please enlighten me.  

[Arika]

Just now, VegetableStu said:

oh, any word if the ROG moniker for motherboards would have to change as well? o_o

cant imagine it would since GPP only refers to GPUs. 

[Brooksie359]

7 hours ago, Razor01 said:

And my point still stands too, nV should not give funds for marketing, and development and other things that help them in the market to companies that put their brands along with inferior products that directly compete with their products.

 

How ever that happens by splitting up the lines is up to the companies involved to decide, not the consumer, not the gov.

 

Will it hurt AMD sure, too bad, until they can get back into the gaming market in a meaningful way, they can whine and and complain all they want.  "the big bad bully is hurting me" that is all they are doing.

 

You don't think its fair, or ethical or moral, but in business when it comes to protecting ones own IP, products, what not, there is no such thing as fair or ethical.  It is not our morals or ethics nV cares about in this case, its the AIB's ethics and morals of putting their products along side of competitor's products.  If the product deserves that much attention, it will garner it regardless, nV is speeding that up. 

 

I have said this from the moment they launched Pascal, they are actively trying to distance themselves from AMD's graphics products as much as possible.  Even in their own marketing papers, they try not to mention anything AMD when it comes to graphics if at all possible.

 

There is a psychology effect of doing such things, when it comes to consumers.  I will not deny that.  I have seen it done in many markets before.  These are not things anyone can stop companies from doing though.  The only way to stop the effects of this is becoming an informed consumer, which most consumer's are not.

 

Lets look at the other coin and see what AMD has done, after all the reviews of nV products prior to AMD releasing a product that was competitive, what did they do with their marketing of Polaris and Vega?  (we can throw Fiji in here too with those press release benchmarks which were crap)  Was it ethical or moral to tell their consumers all those things in that word cloud, when the product didn't live up to it?  No it wasn't, but that is what helped them stem off sales of Pascal at least for some people. 

 

Companies don't have moral obligations to their consumers when it comes to marketing their products, they have a moral obligation to their share holders to show their products the best way possible so they can get the consumers money or stop them from buying a competitor's product.  Either way its a win for them.

 

Was it ethical or moral to make up async compute and confuse the entire gaming industry what the hell it was and how much performance was going to be coming out of if?  Yeah it was AMD's marketing department that did this.  There were people saying 35% - 50% increase in performance if done correctly lol.  Absurd figures like that.

 

Shit it even confused programmers too.  They should never have never used the word asynchronous, that implies something they aren't even doing.  No GPU was capable of asynchronous computing at least at that point, Volta is at a thread level.  This is why MS called it concurrent execution.  But that would have been too confusing for the layman to understand, what is the difference between concurrent and parallel?  They sound the same right from a layman's perspective they are the same in their mind.

 

But AMD marketing used it because they can "separate" their GPU capabilities from nV.

 

This is why talking about if something is moral or ethical, from our point of view is kinda meaningless, our morals, our ethics are not the same as a person in business, they have their own standards based on what they are doing.

Everything you talk about that people did that was unethical actually isn't in my mind. Most of the hype around Vega and Polaris and basically most of AMD products made by fans and enthusist. Even saying that you have a new technology that could prove to be good isn't unethical and can easily be tested. All of these scenarios you speak of are about a company doing something by themselves to intise consumers to do something. That's what marketing is. But as soon as you start strong arming other companies into doing things because of you market position. That's where the line should be drawn. It's entirely possible that this could be seen as anticompetitive and therefore illegal because it does hurt AMDs ability to compete. It's very similar to what Intel did to them back in the day and they were found guilty of it. Bottom line is that you can't have anticompetitive practices just because you are the market leader. 

[Arika]

13 minutes ago, Biggerisbetter said:

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Asus pulls some new BS naming scheme out of there ass, that no one has of heard before. While nvida takes a well known and respected ROG branding. And you think this does not affect AMD. I never said or implied that Asus were no longer going to sell AMD gpus. I'm talking about the "ASUS ROG brand". Which will be an nvida exclusive ROG branded gpus

 

Please enlighten me.  

ok. when was the last time you recommended a product based on the brand form a specific manufacturer? Since you're running with Asus. When people ask what GPU to get, people say "Asus", very rarely will i see people saying to get the specific one branded "ROG" or "Strix". Asus hold the reputation of the manufacturer, not ROG or STRIX. Quality and warranty will be the same if it's made by the same Manufacturer regardless of their branding, since they will also be made in the exact same place, under the same QC.

 

If people want and AMD card, what does it matter what's prefixed in the product name? if someone picks a GPU purely because of the AREZ or ROG name with no further research, then they are the type of people that would likely buy the wrong thing anyway.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Biggerisbetter said:

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Asus pulls some new BS naming scheme out of there ass, that no one has of heard before. While nvida takes a well known and respected ROG branding. And you think this does not affect AMD. I never said or implied that Asus were no longer going to sell AMD gpus. I'm talking about the "ASUS ROG brand". Which will be an nvida exclusive ROG branded gpus

 

Please enlighten me.  

You claimed Asus and gigabyte where trying to hurt AMD's bottom line in a calculated decision.  You are implying intent that cannot be garnered from any of the information we have.  Also Ares/z has been around for a long time, they are simply resurrecting an older AMD Gaming brand of theirs, not a BS one no one has heard of before.

 

1 minute ago, Brooksie359 said:

Everything you talk about that people did that was unethical actually isn't in my mind. Most of the hype around Vega and Polaris and basically most of AMD products made by fans and enthusist. Even saying that you have a new technology that could prove to be good isn't unethical and can easily be tested. All of these scenarios you speak of are about a company doing something by themselves to intise consumers to do something. That's what marketing is. But as soon as you start strong arming other companies into doing things because of you market position. That's where the line should be drawn. It's entirely possible that this could be seen as anticompetitive and therefore illegal because it does hurt AMDs ability to compete. It's very similar to what Intel did to them back in the day and they were found guilty of it. Bottom line is that you can't have anticompetitive practices just because you are the market leader. 

I believe the difference between this and what Intel did was that Intel actually told OEM's that they would not get any CPU's (plus nor rebates on top of that) if they used AMD chips at all. That is quite the distance from Brand demands and engineering support.    At least nvidias demands aren't that AIB cease to use all AMD product or they face being cut from supply altogether.

[Brooksie359]

9 hours ago, Razor01 said:

 

 

LOL where is that lawsuit lol,

 

AMD employee 1:

 

Damn it we can't do it so lets spend money on a marketing video.

 

AMD employee 2:

 

Oh wait wouldn't it better to spend money on making better products then we won't have all this trouble.

 

AMD employee 1+ 2:

 

Nah spend money on video a marketing video that shows how crappy our competitors are because we won't have any products in the near future that will be competitive to stop this.

Oh this guy is hacking in csgo. I guess it's my fault for not being good enough at the game. Just got to get better rather than report the guy for hacking.

[Brooksie359]

Just now, mr moose said:

You claimed Asus and gigabyte where trying to hurt AMD's bottom line in a calculated decision.  You are implying intent that cannot be garnered from any of the information we have.  Also Ares/z has been around for a long time, they are simply resurrecting an older AMD Gaming brand of theirs, not a BS one no one has heard of before.

 

I believe the difference between this and what Intel did was that Intel actually told OEM's that they would not get any CPU's (plus nor rebates on top of that) if they used AMD chips at all. That is quite the distance from Brand demands and engineering support.    At least nvidias demands aren't that AIB cease to use all AMD product or they face being cut from supply altogether.

It is different but I still think they could make a case for it being anticompetitive. 

[Arika]

1 minute ago, VegetableStu said:

motherboards but also only Nvidia GPUs ._.

and laptops, which there are a few which have AMD gpus (and ryzen CPUS) in them....what the hell is going to happen with those  the plot thickens

[mr moose]

Just now, Sierra Fox said:

ok. when was the last time you recommended a product based on the brand form a specific manufacturer? Since you're running with Asus. When people ask what GPU to get, people say "Asus", very rarely will i see people saying to get the specific one branded "ROG" or "Strix". Asus hold the reputation of the manufacturer, not ROG or STRIX. Quality and warranty will be the same if it's made by the same Manufacturer regardless of their branding, since they will also be made in the exact same place, under the same QC.

 

If people what and AMD card, what does it matter what's prefixed in the product name? if someone picks a GPU purely because of the AREZ or ROG name with no further research, then they are the type of people that would likely buy the wrong thing anyway.

In my experience nearly all recommendations on forums are for the chipset only. Rarely do people even mention a manufacturer unless a non reference card is specified.

 

12 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

It is different but I still think they could make a case for it being anticompetitive. 

I tend to think the chances of this being illegal are low, however given we have nearly no information I wouldn't rule it out.  I just don't think it is going to be anywhere near the same level as what Intel did. 

[Arika]

1 minute ago, VegetableStu said:

(wait, do they?)

yuuup

 

https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ROG-Strix-GL702ZC/

 

Processor

AMD® Ryzen™ 7 1700 Processor, 
AMD® Ryzen™ 5 1600 Processor,

 

Graphics

 AMD Radeon™ RX580 , with 4GB, VRAM

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

and laptops, which there are a few which have AMD gpus (and ryzen CPUS) in them....what the hell is going to happen with those  the plot thickens

It's a conspiracy wrapped in a fraud pretending to be a con hiding behind a red herring but selling itself as a branding alternative.  So nothing will happen, they will sell all the same until someone notices they are sold out and blames Nvidia. 

[Derangel]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Exactly,  Nvidia invest millions into gsync, gameworks, building tool kits for developers, handing out GPU's and sponsoring all manor of development.  AMD did what? mantle/Vulcan and freesync plus a whole heap of words on a page or in an article/interview.  

 

I'm sorry, I do like AMD products, but lets not beat around the bush,  If AMD want to put the kibosh on Nvidia and things like GPP/gsync then they have to step up to the mark and provide consumers with better options and less words.   

"Make better stuff" is a nice idea but reality is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Do you honestly believe that AMD has not been releasing the best cards they could all this time? Do you think they've intentionally released underperforming, power chomping, hot chips for shits and giggles? Unfortunately AMD has been stuck with years of inefficient designs and creating some brand new to get around that takes a lot of time and money. They're in a shitty place, partly due to their own bad decisions and partly due to some pretty damn good marketing and pricing strategy by Nvidia. Whatever their roadmap is, they're stuck with it. They can't just twinkle their nose and make a brand new card that stops Nvidia appear out of thin air.

 

AMD needs to step up their game across the board, really. You'd be surprised what they could do with marketing, if they could find the right ads, for the right people, at the right time. This kind of marketing is amusing but it is never going to win hearts and minds nor push AMD into the mainstream consciousness the way Nvidia is. As has been the problem for years, AMD's marketing is trash. They're not Wendy's, they don't have the clout or social media understanding needed to make waves by poking at their competition and they definitely need to make sure they never repeat the mistake of attacking every outlet that said negative things about their products.

[Arika]

4 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

i meant the i7-8xxxGees, but yeah same point to some extent ._.

oh, well i do believe i misinterpreted then haha. 

 

it might still happen, maybe not with Asus given that the GPU was regularly hitting 88c in that laptop

[Humbug]

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

just saying i'd rather see that pile of cash go into some better marketing or actually make cards available.

Companies don't halt everything else they are doing in order to do one thing. It doesn't work like that. If they did that they would collapse. So it's a moot point unless you can prove that the balance is off in terms of how many people they are hiring in one department vs another and the budget allocation.

[Humbug]

44 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

ok. when was the last time you recommended a product based on the brand form a specific manufacturer? Since you're running with Asus. When people ask what GPU to get, people say "Asus", very rarely will i see people saying to get the specific one branded "ROG" or "Strix". Asus hold the reputation of the manufacturer, not ROG or STRIX. Quality and warranty will be the same if it's made by the same Manufacturer regardless of their branding, since they will also be made in the exact same place, under the same QC.

 

If people want and AMD card, what does it matter what's prefixed in the product name? if someone picks a GPU purely because of the AREZ or ROG name with no further research, then they are the type of people that would likely buy the wrong thing anyway.

Why is Nvidia doing this?

 

Because they know that having things like 'ROG Strix' or 'gaming' on the box increases sales. When an uneducated consumer walks into a store and looks at boxes and has to choose he is looking for familiarity and the more things he can latch onto the better. He will think I know this means something good.

 

Nobody is claiming that it is more important than the manufacturer label or the radeon vs geforce label etc. Obviously those are more important. But this plays a big part too or else Nvidia would not care...

[mr moose]

32 minutes ago, Derangel said:

"Make better stuff" is a nice idea but reality is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Do you honestly believe that AMD has not been releasing the best cards they could all this time?

I never said "make better stuff"  don't put it in quotes unless I actually said it.  I said " provide consumers with better options ", which is markedly different from making better stuff because it infers that there are more than just the products that come to bare on how well they do and how much consumers want there product.

 

Quote

Do you think they've intentionally released underperforming, power chomping, hot chips for shits and giggles?

 

Again, no. not sure why you think I said they did, I didn't even infer that.

Quote

Unfortunately AMD has been stuck with years of inefficient designs and creating some brand new to get around that takes a lot of time and money. They're in a shitty place, partly due to their own bad decisions and partly due to some pretty damn good marketing and pricing strategy by Nvidia. Whatever their roadmap is, they're stuck with it. They can't just twinkle their nose and make a brand new card that stops Nvidia appear out of thin air.

I think their chief problem was GCN.  It was great to start of with but over the years it has proven to be much harder to develop and evolve.  Every generation since it's first release has taken longer to produce and performance has been lackluster at best.  This is not a dig, just reality as I personally see it.  Nvidia were lucky (maybe skilled) in that they have been able to build efficiently on their architecture to the point they were always in front and time wasn't an issue.

 

Quote

 

AMD needs to step up their game across the board, really. You'd be surprised what they could do with marketing, if they could find the right ads, for the right people, at the right time. This kind of marketing is amusing but it is never going to win hearts and minds nor push AMD into the mainstream consciousness the way Nvidia is. As has been the problem for years, AMD's marketing is trash. They're not Wendy's, they don't have the clout or social media understanding needed to make waves by poking at their competition and they definitely need to make sure they never repeat the mistake of attacking every outlet that said negative things about their products.

This is essentially my point, however I believe they need to augment a better marketing program by actually getting heavily involved with AIB partners and game developers.  And The reason I say this is because (for what ever reason) their hardware performance alone has not been enough.

[cluelessgenius]

yes, all the freedom. except the rx 580 matches a 1060 and even if we include vega they still dont have anything to match the 80ti or even the 80 for that matter. i used to love amd like full on fanboy in my younger days but lately i dont know. i like their mindset but at the same time if their mindset is so good then something else must be the reason why they just cant produce a decent high end chip any more. so freedom yes but if i can choose why should i go for the less powerful card at the same price and higher tdp.

i would be fine with a more powerful card at a higher price with the same-ish tdp.

[laminutederire]

7 hours ago, DoctorWho1975 said:

That's not how trademark law works. There was a HUGE difference between World Wrestling Federation and World Wildlife Fund, guess what. the latter WWF forced a name change on wrestling gig. 

Not in Europe at least. Here you can only enforce a change on someone if that someone is in the same line of business or interacts with your line of work, 

uses the same brand.

(I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same in the US but the event you mention is just the result of intense lobbying)

 

7 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

That's what I thought it might be but it makes no sense.  Everyone knows they were forced out of their regular brands by GPP, why make this statement and try to play it off as "oh, yeah this was totally our idea".  It's like "nah, they didn't dump us, we dumped them" kind of thing.  Seems silly to me.  Or maybe I'm not understanding what this is about...

 They can't prove GPP right now otherwise they'd be suing Nvidia hard. So the next best thing is to turn them being forced out into them creating a "new line based on ethics". They recall not that subtly that it is because of GPP, and at the same time they try to taint those new brands with a high quality product feel,,for people who do not know anything about GPP

[laminutederire]

7 hours ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

There is this, though:

  Hide contents

 

Oh well it was taken my bad. Didn't knew about this line from G Skill (how old is it by the way?)

[leadeater]

55 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

i would be fine with a more powerful card at a higher price with the same-ish tdp.

I wish AMD would realize this, there are a lot of people that would actually pay more for an AMD GPU that is actually faster even if the price makes zero sense.

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

hell, I'm still thinking about the Radeon Pro SSG ._. and when will that appear on consumer cards

Well it's not any faster than anything else you can buy, the GPU core is the same.

[Humbug]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

I wish AMD would realize this, there are a lot of people that would actually pay more for an AMD GPU that is actually faster even if the price makes zero sense.

Execution and delivering it is not so easy even if there are enough people.

 

They will not compete with the absolute top end Nvidia part at least until they can succesfully deliver Navi plus die stacking technology. That's their plan: to compete with Nvidia top end the same way threadripper competed with Intel enthusiast CPUs using infinity fabric like tech. This Tech was supposed to be ready for next year (2019) but now there are rumors it will be delayed. If that is true it means that even in 2019 AMD will not be able to deliver anything faster than a single Navi die (hence the rumours of GTX 1080 performance at $250 but nothing more high end).

 

AMD has given up on creating massive single GPU dies large enough to outperform stuff like the 1080ti. Because AMD thinks it is too expensive, yields are too low and they cannot command the same margins as Nvidia does with Titan in order to justify it. So they have placed all their bets on scalability, starting with Navi...

 

Not been done before, so maybe it will work like threadripper,  or maybe it will crash and burn...

Edited April 18, 2018 by Humbug

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

so the part where the GPU could page video/textures directly off the SSD is not as practically significant as their 8K footage demo...? ,_,

Nope, because the GPU itself isn't fast enough to render a modern high end game full maxed out settings at 4K already and those settings don't exceed the current frame buffers on cards so yea not that useful.

 

If the game drew everything in infinite FOV like in 3D modeling then it would be useful, that's mainly why it helps that use case so much.

 

Still the GPU needs to be able to render the image and amount of ram doesn't make it faster, if you only need 3GB having 12GB or 2TB won't make it faster.