Plattsburgh, N.Y to take legislative against crypto mining.

[Eaglerino]

17 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Sounds like to me the city needs to invest in a better power grid. While I dont care for mining myself, we all know the US power grid needs a lot of work. I mean, in the summer we have rolling blackouts due to power needs. Whats going to happen this summer with all the mining going on? The fact is more and more things need power, we need a better infrastructure for the future. 

Combo-wombo of air conditioners and mining

[Donut417]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Yes, if they can't/don't want to increase power production (which is very difficult because the only two viable options to power industry are nuclear or coal which no one wants) then you have to limit consumption.   Where I live the government has been asking big industry to wind back production on hot days because we don't have enough supply to meet demand.

 

 

I watched an episode of This Old House. They went to Germany and showed some of the cool energy efficient things the Germans have been doing. For example newer buildings have to get 30% of its energy from renewable sources. This is what needs to happen in the US. We need to start making homes more efficient. Even putting solar panels on roofs or using Wind turbines. 

 

Detroit Metro Airport has smaller wind turbines running down Eureka road, where they power street lights leading in to the airport. Why not invest in this when building new houses or buildings? Why not heavily encourage home owners to invest in solar setups that reduce loads on the power grid? Part of the reason is the greed from energy companies. All crypto currency mining is doing is showing how bad the power grid is, we need to modernize it. Because you damn well know that the black out of 2003 could happen again, or be much worse. Because we have done nothing to fix the problem. We just blame other things instead of fixing the much bigger issue. 

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

I watched an episode of This Old House. They went to Germany and showed some of the cool energy efficient things the Germans have been doing. For example newer buildings have to get 30% of its energy from renewable sources. This is what needs to happen in the US. We need to start making homes more efficient. Even putting solar panels on roofs or using Wind turbines. 

 

Detroit Metro Airport has smaller wind turbines running down Eureka road, where they power street lights leading in to the airport. Why not invest in this when building new houses or buildings? Why not heavily encourage home owners to invest in solar setups that reduce loads on the power grid? Part of the reason is the greed from energy companies. All crypto currency mining is doing is showing how bad the power grid is, we need to modernize it. Because you damn well know that the black out of 2003 could happen again, or be much worse. Because we have done nothing to fix the problem. We just blame other things instead of fixing the much bigger issue. 

I certainly agree with that,  The future is in upgrading and improving to better things.   All I meant by my initial post and follow up is that this situation highlights a problem that needs to be addressed, not that it is a problem intrinsic to mining.

[The Benjamins]

19 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Sounds like to me the city needs to invest in a better power grid. While I dont care for mining myself, we all know the US power grid needs a lot of work. I mean, in the summer we have rolling blackouts due to power needs. Whats going to happen this summer with all the mining going on? The fact is more and more things need power, we need a better infrastructure for the future. 

well some grids are fine but with mining they could see a big percentage higher demand and on hot days crazy demand that is far more then the area would normally get.

[jagdtigger]

23 hours ago, Terryv said:

Just like most government currencies then.

Most used to be backed by gold, but the value of gold was also arbitrary at the time.

 

Like the USD (and others), crypto has value because people think it has value.

Nope, at least not all of them. In many cases governments have gold reserves....

[Donut417]

4 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Nope, at least not all of them. In many cases governments have gold reserves....

Just because Governments have gold reserves doesnt mean the money is back by gold. Fort Knox, West Point and the US Federal Reserve bank of New York has shit loads of gold in them. But the US Dollar is not backed by gold. Most countries stopped backing money by gold because it gives the government less control over the currency. Also countries have a limited supply of gold, which if the currency was backed by gold, they would have a limited amount of currency they could have. 

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Just because Governments have gold reserves doesnt mean the money is back by gold. Fort Knox, West Point and the US Federal Reserve bank of New York has shit loads of gold in them. But the US Dollar is not backed by gold. Most countries stopped backing money by gold because it gives the government less control over the currency. Also countries have a limited supply of gold, which if the currency was backed by gold, they would have a limited amount of currency they could have. 

That is true but it can be used as a stabilizer if need be. BTW the currency supply most be limited otherwise the inflation would go out of control. There are ways to temporarily make more but ultimately its a big zero-sum game(read up on how banks operate if you interested). The official currencies arent backed by gold but by the given countries economical situation. On the other hand these so called currencies born from nothing, just like fake money. Unlike real currency they have no real economic performance behind them, so the only thing they are good for is to increase the inflation of real currencies.

[Energycore]

21 hours ago, Sampsy said:

Numbers backed by businesses, consumers, banks, the central bank and the government.

The value of bitcoin is backed by those who use the currency asset to make payments or to do other things like execute Smart Contracts or run Decentralized Apps as is the case of Ethereum. For what that's worth.

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, ProfessionalOverclocker said:

*snip*

No they dont send warrants out for mining coins. Though the Romulus Police is under funded and under manned. Ive even heard of them letting people with warrants go, because they simply dont have the time to take them back to the station. Its so bad that if you have an actual emergency it could take them up to 2 hours to respond. So not sure how they would handle child porn. Though if they put your name and face on the news, you either be caught by the state police or a private armed citizen. You rather not meet the latter, because Romulus is part of Metro Detroit, and Detroit does have its reputation. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by wkdpaul

[Drak3]

10 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Nope, at least not all of them. In many cases governments have gold reserves....

Gold is barely more valuable than the paper money is printed on, as a currency. And you can thank electronics manufacturing for what value, as a currency, gold does have.

[DrMacintosh]

Who would win;

The Great State of New York

 

Some greedy boys

[done12many2]

2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Who would win;

The Great State of New York

 

Some greedy boys

 

Never underestimate the power of greed.  

[Misanthrope]

On 3/9/2018 at 4:47 PM, DoctorWho1975 said:

A huge amount of money is not an illusion.

The illusion here is getting something from nothing: the investment on hardware isn't enough if they're doing what I think they're doing: taking advantage of residential or discounted industrial rates for electricity.

 

I.E. If I am a city I might want to encourage industry to settle in on certain areas so I offered decent bulk rates for electricity with the expectation that this industrial operations do a bunch of things for the local economy

 

1) Generate jobs

2) Pay taxes

3) Incur on other goods and services built around them

 

And so on an so forth.

 

If I'm a miner and I take up a relatively tiny warehouse within this area (or even worst, a residential area) I can move in my gpus/ASICs/Whatever and hook them on and start mining.

 

1) I didn't generate any jobs

2) I probably don't need to pay taxes or not nearly as many local an state taxes

3) I certainly do not buy any other goods and services so I have 0 impact on the local economy.

 

Can you see how this benefit in which the city subsidizes electricity bills for a company according to an area would basically be a net loss for them? Miners can pretty much mine anywhere and if there's an area where the electricity bills have a good rate, they'll go there. Governments need to react and be more strict about who gets better rates since miners would ideally need to pay more for electricity than an average industry or commerce establishment because they should be making up for factors 1 through 3 (among many others) for their wasteful power requirements that benefits almost nobody locally.

[Sauron]

I don't see why they should straight up prevent them from coming, all it would take is a miner tax on power or a per-business power consumption limit.

[done12many2]

15 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

The illusion here is getting something from nothing: the investment on hardware isn't enough if they're doing what I think they're doing: taking advantage of residential or discounted industrial rates for electricity.

 

I.E. If I am a city I might want to encourage industry to settle in on certain areas so I offered decent bulk rates for electricity with the expectation that this industrial operations do a bunch of things for the local economy

 

1) Generate jobs

2) Pay taxes

3) Incur on other goods and services built around them

 

And so on an so forth.

 

If I'm a miner and I take up a relatively tiny warehouse within this area (or even worst, a residential area) I can move in my gpus/ASICs/Whatever and hook them on and start mining.

 

1) I didn't generate any jobs

2) I probably don't need to pay taxes or not nearly as many local an state taxes

3) I certainly do not buy any other goods and services so I have 0 impact on the local economy.

 

Can you see how this benefit in which the city subsidizes electricity bills for a company according to an area would basically be a net loss for them? Miners can pretty much mine anywhere and if there's an area where the electricity bills have a good rate, they'll go there. Governments need to react and be more strict about who gets better rates since miners would ideally need to pay more for electricity than an average industry or commerce establishment because they should be making up for factors 1 through 3 (among many others) for their wasteful power requirements that benefits almost nobody locally.

 

The return of investment is very real regardless of whether or not professional mining operations are taking advantages of discounted electricity.  

 

Even with with the market being down at the moment, mining remains profitable at residential or commercial costs.   

 

The profits are not an illusion.  

 

I do agree that miners should in no way receive subsidy.  I don't however see any problems with them continuing to make money provided their electric costs remain the same as the average Joe next door. 

[Misanthrope]

Just now, Sauron said:

I don't see why they should straight up prevent them from coming, all it would take is a miner tax on power or a per-business power consumption limit.

Depending on their margins that might be basically the same as preventing them from coming. But they should do this tax on power regardless for the reasons I previously stated.

[Misanthrope]

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

The return of investment is very real regardless of whether or not professional mining operations are taking advantages of discounted electricity.  

 

Even with with the market being down at the moment, mining remains profitable at residential or commercial costs.   

 

The profits are not an illusion.  

 

I do agree that miners should in no way receive subsidy.  I don't however see any problems with them continuing to make money provided their electric cost remain the same as the average Joe next door. 

Hey if the RoI allows for the city to establish a reasonable power rate/tax for them while they continue operating then that's a.o.k.

 

The only other "if" that I would throw out there is that power isn't unlimited so they also can't sustain as many miners as they want to move at one point they will need to either jack up the rates so high they won't or flat out say no otherwise you'd have to start doing stupid shit like investing on new power plants, potentially throwing off the entire balance and investment and I can tell you that as real as their model is it's not worth it for a city to basically request and subsidize new power plants to accommodate power leechers that might crash and go out of business as fast as within a handful of days when getting new power sources would take years.

[Sauron]

4 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Depending on their margins that might be basically the same as preventing them from coming.

That's the idea, don't put in strict legislation that can be exploited in the future - taxes are pretty easy to add or remove depending on the situation.

[done12many2]

4 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Hey if the RoI allows for the city to establish a reasonable power rate/tax for them while they continue operating then that's a.o.k.

 

The only other "if" that I would throw out there is that power isn't unlimited so they also can't sustain as many miners as they want to move at one point they will need to either jack up the rates so high they won't or flat out say no otherwise you'd have to start doing stupid shit like investing on new power plants, potentially throwing off the entire balance and investment and I can tell you that as real as their model is it's not worth it for a city to basically request and subsidize new power plants to accommodate power leechers that might crash and go out of business as fast as within a handful of days when getting new power sources would take years.

 

While I do mine, I don't imagine it will remain profitable long enough for any of this stuff to take place.   Enacting legislation and taxation is time consuming, but who knows?

 

ASIC resistant coins continue to flood the market keeping GPU mining relatively strong, but I don't see it lasting forever.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to mine every cent I can till the end, but I don't do this as a means to support my family.   It's just money for more and more hardware.  

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

That is true but it can be used as a stabilizer if need be.

Before the US economy moved to fiat (ditched the gold standard),  it had to suspend the gold standard and even introduce a silver standard on occasions because the economy was growing beyond the capacity of the gold reserves.  There is no way the gold can be used as a stabilizer anymore as there just isn't enough value in it to underpin the economy in any meaningful way.

 

I believe the US holds about $600Bn in gold while the economy is worth $18T.      That's like keeping $50 in the bank just in case you have an issue with your $2000 PC.

[Cole5]

Good, Miners can all curl up and screw off, Good on New York 

[done12many2]

4 minutes ago, Cole5 said:

Good, Miners can all curl up and screw off, Good on New York 

 

Sounds like someone is upset about something. 

[Cole5]

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

Sounds like someone is upset about something. 

Watsed energy and increased power draw mostly yes, Wasting dirty power on something that isn't real is the stupidest form of greed ive seen so far 

[done12many2]

Just now, Cole5 said:

Watsed energy and increased power draw mostly yes, Wasting dirty power on something that isn't real is the stupidest form of greed ive seen so far 

 

What isn't real? 

[Cole5]

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

What isn't real? 

I'll let you figure that out, you look like a semi smart CPU and cooler