Plattsburgh, N.Y to take legislative against crypto mining.

[done12many2]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

nope,  LTT just like all the others are a valid source for hardware information.  Some might only use it for entertainment, but even if that was the case Hollywood is only for entertainment and it's an industry that props up others.  As I mentioned before, mining is too young to evaluate its impact. 

 

That's the thing about industry analysis, there is there is so much to consider  you can't just take a snapshot when it is doing well and say it's beneficial.  What if none of the currencies can be utilised well enough and the net outcome becomes a financial loss? 

 

I can't argue the long-term impacts as I as well don't know.  

 

What I can tell you is that most comments about mining or miners in general are made out of ignorance.  

 

As far as net outcome, none of us know. Speculation either way is just that.  If this crazy idea of decentralized currency becomes the standard, well I guess some weren't so crazy. 

 

Either way, throughout this learning process,  I will continue to mine as my household enjoys a tangible benefit from it.  My bank account isn't filled with the illusions previously implied by others. 

[DrMacintosh]

2 minutes ago, Cole5 said:

Quite easily, how do you think they find those grow houses in warm states

Choppers with infrared cameras  

[Cole5]

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

Choppers with infrared cameras  

Well yeah that too

[done12many2]

10 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Id still hate you a bit for mining. But Id respect you for having the initiative of using clean renewable energy. LOL. 

 

Thanks for the honesty bud. It's refreshing to see an opinion not influenced by popularity. 

[Cole5]

3 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

I love the comments about having a right to the power as long as you pay for it.....here’s the thing, you don’t. 

 

By that logic Bill Gates could buy all the drinkable sources of water as long as he paid for it and it would be A OK.

 

Errr, no. 

 

If miners are putting a load onto a grid that struggled to support it, the miners need to stop or the grid needs to be upgraded. The miners don’t get to just keep taking all the power. 

Also true, Hence rolling blackouts, You pay for the power but they can turn you off if other places need it 

[Donut417]

7 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

You can track power draw....how else do you think the power company knows how much you owe. 

What if Im running a server farm out of my house? They dont know what the power is being used for. Maybe I got every appliance turned on and Im running naked thru the house covered in Jello. They dont know whats Im doing. All they know is how much Im using, not what Im using it for. They have no way of finding out. If  they dont have a warrant from a judge they cant gain access to a home without the owners permission. 

 

In some states its illegal to shut off the power even for non payment in certain conditions. For example when its cold out. Generally if your paying your bill they cant say shit. The power company doesn't give a fuck, because they are making money. All they can do is using rolling blackouts, which take out entire neighborhoods. 

[Donut417]

Double post. 

[DrMacintosh]

2 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

What if Im running a server farm out of my house?

They could track your IP pings. 

 

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Maybe I got every appliance turned on and Im running naked thru the house covered in Jello.

Maybe you do, but not for months on end. 

 

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

All they know is how much Im using, not what Im using it for. They have no way of finding out.

The federal government can findout anything they want. 

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Maybe I got every appliance turned on and Im running naked thru the house covered in Jello.

Hmm undecided if this is something I want to see or not.

 

6 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

All they know is how much Im using, not what Im using it for. They have no way of finding out. If  they dont have a warrant from a judge they cant gain access to a home without the owners permission. 

They'll probably change pricing plans or regulations and set an acceptable average for a household and anyone above that either has to pay much more and/or be subject to an inspection to make sure they are not breaking any local zoning bylaws by operating a mining operation in a zone that does not allow it.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

I can't argue the long-term impacts as I as well don't know.  

Which is exactly my point,  But the problem is people where trying compare it to gaming and LTT.  The insinuation being gaming is pointless too therefore the argument about mining is moot.  However gaming has been around long enough that we have a measurable net benefit to society. 

 

3 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

What I can tell you is that most comments about mining or miners in general are made out of ignorance.  

 

Then argue the bits that are wrong rather than supporting the introduction of comparisons that only highlight the lack of information we have on mining.

 

3 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

As far as net outcome, none of us know. Speculation either way is just that.  If this crazy idea of decentralized currency becomes the standard, well I guess some weren't so crazy. 

The way economies work,  If any of the crypto's become the standard there is only a really really slim chance it will remain decentralized in the way people think decentralized exists.    

 

3 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

Either way, throughout this learning process,  I will continue to mine as my household enjoys a tangible benefit from it.  My bank account isn't filled with the illusions previously implied by others. 

I am a big advocate of people being allowed to do what they want with their money and resources.  I just don't hold to any credence that we are absolved of criticism for our actions if those actions effect other people. 

 

 

[Mooshi]

I'm not the only one who gets a miners are entitled vibe, am I?

 

Look, I don't care if you can flash cash, it doesn't mean I respect you. Graphics cards marked up to ridiculous amounts, strain on power grids while offering nothing in return -- and you're actually shocked about ill will?

 

You never hear infrastructure strain for people who F@H, do you? It's all personal greed for what are bytes of data.

 

We're not talking shutting power off to the cold or whatever. This is people complaining they are being complained about for being a nuisance and you can't sugar coat it. Anyone who mines on a card or two aren't the ones contributing to this problem. It's the people who think they can throw money at problems that's the problem

 

If you wish to go solar or actually try to raise funds to improve your local grid, all the power in the world to you. Otherwise you come off as hella entitled.

 

Angry quoted responses in 3...2..1 lol

 

[Cole5]

1 minute ago, Mooshi said:

I'm not the only one who gets a miners are entitled vibe, am I?

 

Look, I don't care if you can flash cash, it doesn't mean I respect you. Graphics cards marked up to ridiculous amounts, strain on power grids while offering nothing in return -- and you're actually shocked about I'll will?

 

You never hear infrastructure strain for people who F@H, do you? It's all personal greed for what is bytes of data that has no real worth besides people saying it does because reasons.

 

We're not talking shutting power off to the cold or whatever. This people complaining they are being complained about for being a nuisance and you can't sugar coat it. Anyone who mines on a card or two aren't the ones contributing to this problem. It's the people who think they can throw money at problems that's the problem

 

If you wish to go solar or actually try to raise funds to improve your local grid, all the power in the world to you. Otherwise you come off as hella entitled.

 

Angry quoted responses on 3...2..1 lol

 

Put better than my sleep deprived brain could ever!

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

They could track your IP pings. 

Oh yeah. Cause they are going to subpoena Comcast for records. 

 

2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

The federal government can findout anything they want

Yeah but they dont own the energy infrastructure in the country. Private corporations do. Plus I dont know if your keeping up on current events, the government in DC is currently at a stand still with many much more important issues than mining causing energy problems. 

 

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

hey'll probably change pricing plans or regulations and set an acceptable average for a household and anyone above that either has to pay much more and/or be subject to an inspection to make sure they are not breaking any local zoning bylaws by operating a mining operation in a zone that does not allow it.

With Smart meters they can charge more during peak usage times. So the energy companies could charge more. Which is fine, I think thats a good practice any way, as it helps reduce energy usage during those peak times, or at least gives the company more money so they can either pocket it or invest it back in to the company. DTE for example has been cutting down trees near power lines, to help stop them from taking out those lines during bad weather. They also went thru and replace a lot of the natural gas mains, but that was because one of those mains blew up a building a few years back and killed people. As the mains were old and in need of replacement. 

 

Im not sure how it works in New York, but I dont think our city could do much to stop power usage. As I stated above, all of our utilities are private companies. They are regulated by the state to an extent but they still own all the lines and stuff. Plus Michigan is run by a republican governor, republicans dont normally like government intervention in to private citizen affairs. 

[DrMacintosh]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Oh yeah. Cause they are going to subpoena Comcast for records. 

You don't think the government could if they wanted to? I doubt Comcast would even resist!

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

the government in DC is currently at a stand still with many much more important issues than mining causing energy problems. 

How is energy problems not a major issue in your eyes? 

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Plus Michigan is run by a republican governor, republicans dont normally like government intervention in to private citizen affairs. 

Hah!

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Im not sure how it works in New York, but I dont think our city could do much to stop power usage. As I stated above, all of our utilities are private companies. They are regulated by the state to an extent but they still own all the lines and stuff. Plus Michigan is run by a republican governor, republicans dont normally like government intervention in to private citizen affairs. 

I actually don't think zoning enforcement would be pushed back though. The only people that are likely to be effected by it would be people converting houses or other properties in non commercial or industrial areas which actually is a legitimate problem as far as power distribution is concerned. Even a person with a single mining rig with say 12 GPUs isn't actually a problem, it's the people with 5, 10 or 15 of these and then add another group of people doing the same close by etc.

 

Here though this looks more like just a cost thing going by the article, the local power production is being exceeded and they have to buy in power at much higher rates.

 

Every other business has to comply with zoning rules so mining actually shouldn't be exempt from this, the only issue is they tend to not actually be registered businesses. 

[done12many2]

40 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Which is exactly my point,  But the problem is people where trying compare it to gaming and LTT.  The insinuation being gaming is pointless too therefore the argument about mining is moot.  However gaming has been around long enough that we have a measurable net benefit to society. 

 

I game and I mine.  I damn sure wouldn't be caught dead saying that gaming is pointless.    I know what you mean though.

 

Quote

Then argue the bits that are wrong rather than supporting the introduction of comparisons that only highlight the lack of information we have on mining.

 

When I see one based on merit that I disagree with, I sure will.  For the most part, I'm referring to the simple "miners must die" type shit.

 

Blanket statements about miners or any group bug me.  I do a great deal of planning with regards to putting the consumed power to better use.   Yes I make money off the mining, but I also use that expelled energy to offset the heating costs for my 2 story + basement home.  Generally speaking, during the winter months, the GPUs in my 1st floor office space output enough heat to reduce the need to run the gas furnace nearly as much.  We're on propane here, which is a great deal more expensive than natural gas so we bought fancy electric heaters resembling fireplaces (wife's doing) to run instead of the central propane heating.  Guess what we don't have to run nearly as much anymore?  The gas or electric heaters.  At the end of the day, my winter energy costs thanks in part to mining, are better due to the reduced use of high cost propane. 

 

As we transition into the warmer months, the rigs are moved down into the basement which in the past has been an uncomfortably cool area for my wife requiring the use of the space heaters mentioned above.  Not anymore.  

 

Quote

The way economies work,  If any of the crypto's become the standard there is only a really really slim chance it will remain decentralized in the way people think decentralized exists.

 

Agreed.   Hell, those with extremely large market shares (whales) already begin to break down the concept of decentralization.   Not only do they hold large shares of the market, but their constant manipulation of it is down right shady and dangerous.

 

Quote

I am a big advocate of people being allowed to do what they want with their money and resources.  I just don't hold to any credence that we are absolved of criticism for our actions if those actions effect other people. 

 

See above comment regarding supplemental heating.   I definitely don't absolve myself of criticism, but I also recognize that most people commenting negatively about miners are doing so out of the previously mentioned ignorance.

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

Generally speaking, during the winter months, the GPUs in my 1st floor office space output enough heat to reduce the need to run the gas furnace nearly as much.  We're on propane here, which is a great deal more expensive than natural gas so we bought fancy electric heaters resembling fireplaces (wife's doing) to run instead of the central propane heating.  Guess what we don't have to run nearly as much anymore?  The gas or electric heaters. 

This was actually the main reason I started mining with my PC, the choice was run an electric heater or utilize my dual 290X heating furnace while maybe/maybe not making a bit of money. I can pump out 800W from my system or run the 2000W electric heater which I have to keep turning off or drop it down to 1000W setting. Also it's quieter than the heater.

[DrMacintosh]

26 minutes ago, leadeater said:

This was actually the main reason I started mining with my PC, the choice was run an electric heater or utilize my dual 290X heating furnace while maybe/maybe not making a bit of money. I can pump out 800W from my system or run the 2000W electric heater which I have to keep turning off or drop it down to 1000W setting. Also it's quieter than the heater.

Does that math really work out? Does running a constant power draw of 800W vs a effectively sub 2,000W heater really add up? 

 

Not to mention the heater is designed to output only heat while the GPUs are only outputting a percentage of their powerdraw as heat. 

[done12many2]

4 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Does that math really work out? Does running a constant power draw of 800W vs a effectively sub 2,000W heater really add up? 

 

Not to mention the heater is designed to output only heat while the GPUs are only outputting a percentage of their powerdraw as heat. 

 

He mentioned that he had to keep turning off the 2000w heater in his post. I could only assume that it was to regulate the temperature as a full 2000w wasn't needed to maintain the temp. 

 

As far as heaters vs CPU/GPU heating efficiency. Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at converting electricity to heat.  CPUs and GPUs are just about the same. What else would their consumed energy become? 

[DrMacintosh]

3 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

He mentioned that he had to keep turning off the 2000w heater in his post. I could only assume that it was to regulate the temperature as a full 2000w wasn't needed to maintain the temp.

Vs an always on 800W draw. I bet the heater is more efficient and significantly more practical than the GPUs are. 

[done12many2]

14 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Vs an always on 800W draw. I bet the heater is more efficient and significantly more practical than the GPUs are. 

 

What you're not uunderstanding is the same amount of energy is being consumed. 

 

Whether you run a 500w GPU for 3 hours or a 1500w heater for 1 hour, they consume the same power and output the same heat. 

 

If you'll ask yourself the same question I ask you in my last post, what other form do you think the energy consumed by the GPU becomes? 

 

Speaking practically, electric heaters and GPUs/CPUs have the same efficiency with regard to converting electricity into heat. 

 

Here's a test run by Puget Systems of a comparison between a space heater and gaming PC. 

 

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Gaming-PC-vs-Space-Heater-Efficiency-511/

 

Quote

Even with these slight variations, the results are close enough for us to confirm that for all intents and purposes a PC and space heater will output the same amount of heat when drawing the same amount of wattage from a wall outlet

 

We're not just making this shit up.

 

 

[DrMacintosh]

10 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

Whether you run a 500w GPU for 3 hours or a 1500w heater for 1 hour, they consume the same power and output the same heat. 

 

10 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

What you'e not uunderstanding is the same amount of energy is being consumed. 

So what is it? The same amount of power is not being consumed. 

 

If he has his system drawing 800W for say 5 hours straight, and his space heater which draws 2,000W but only has that on for effectively an hour or two because a space heater is always going to be more effective than a GPU at heating something up, those two things are not using the same amount of power. 

 

GPUs and CPUs are not designed to expel heat like a space heater. A GPU uses its power to do work and then expels the end result of that work as heat. A space heater does very little work and it’s main goal is to only expel heat. Though I guess the biggest factor would be the power supplies at use. 

[done12many2]

9 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

 

So what is it? The same amount of power is not being consumed. 

 

If he has his system drawing 800W for say 5 hours straight, and his space heater which draws 2,000W but only has that on for effectively an hour or two because a space heater is always going to be more effective than a GPU at heating something up, those two things are not using the same amount of power. 

 

GPUs and CPUs are not designed to expel heat like a space heater. A GPU uses its power to do work and then expels the end result of that work as heat. A space heater does very little work and it’s main goal is to only expel heat. 

 

I added this to my last post. Should clear this up for ya. 

 

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Gaming-PC-vs-Space-Heater-Efficiency-511/

 

 

Quote

Even with these slight variations, the results are close enough for us to confirm that for all intents and purposes a PC and space heater will output the same amount of heat when drawing the same amount of wattage from a wall outlet

Quote

We want to be clear that if your only goal is producing heat, purchasing a space heater is going to be many times cheaper than purchasing a gaming computer. Especially at the wattages a space heater operates at (usually around 1000 watts), a PC is going to be very expensive.

However, if your house is freezing and you already have a high performance gaming computer - or you simply want to know that your gaming addiction isn't actually increasing your power bill in the winter- our testing shows that a PC is just as efficient at creating heat as a space heater. In fact, you could even set the computer to mine bitcoins to make a heat generator that helps pay for itself! So when you wake up or get home to a freezing cold room, start up those games, folding@home programs, or benchmarks to get your room nice and warm. Its just as efficient as using a space heater, and much more entertaining.

 

[mr moose]

19 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

 

As far as heaters vs CPU/GPU heating efficiency. Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at converting electricity to heat.  CPUs and GPUs are just about the same. What else would their consumed energy become? 

They are very close,  minor consideration has to be made for energy stored (in memory and charging memory states) as well as driving external devices (data only not powering).   As heat is a by product of a transistor switching, the more efficient that switching the less heat and the less energy used.  Which is why many people continue to confuse TDP with power draw. 

 

[DrMacintosh]

8 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

a PC and space heater will output the same amount of heat when drawing the same amount of wattage from a wall outlet

Which is not what is happening in this scenario.....