Car Enthusiast Club [Now Motorcycle friendly!] - First thread to 150k! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[warmmilk]

16 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

@warmmilk https://trackdogracing.com/rotrex.aspx

Found a good alternative I think to the kraftwerkes

yeah, I saw that.  and they're working on an NC kit too that'll work on the 2.0 and 2.5 (2.5 is a little taller so mounting plate and belt setup needs special attention).  But at that price you can get an EFR turbo kit for the NA/NB's from a few reputable outfits.  and I'm assuming the NC kit will be the same price or even more, which brings me back to the same issue.  But yes, if you want a rotrex, TDR is the way to go.  They build stuff to work on the track... 

[bcredeur97]

1 minute ago, warmmilk said:

yeah, I saw that.  and they're working on an NC kit too that'll work on the 2.0 and 2.5 (2.5 is a little taller so mounting plate and belt setup needs special attention).  But at that price you can get an EFR turbo kit for the NA/NB's from a few reputable outfits.  and I'm assuming the NC kit will be the same price or even more, which brings me back to the same issue.  But yes, if you want a rotrex, TDR is the way to go.  They build stuff to work on the track... 

to be honest I feel a lot better about a supercharger than I do a turbo setup. 

I mean the thing will do 250whp on my car @ 11 psi. seems perfect to me.

 

it will cost a good bit to do though. To do it right anyway... with a standalone ECU and likely engine internals (at least rods) if I want it to last a while

[warmmilk]

1 minute ago, bcredeur97 said:

to be honest I feel a lot better about a supercharger than I do a turbo setup. 

I mean the thing will do 250whp on my car @ 11 psi. seems perfect to me.

 

it will cost a good bit to do though. To do it right anyway... with a standalone ECU and likely engine internals (at least rods) if I want it to last a while

nothing wrong with that, just that my preference is turbo.  although my reasoning has some specific NC 2.5 points.

 

small responsive turbo (not taking huge power drag car turbos) vs centrifugal SC (boost climbs with rpm such as the rotrex unit):

• main advantage here is that the turbo will make max boost at 3-4k rpm and will generally hold it to redline.  sometimes it falls off a bit if the exhaust housing can't flow enough at high rpm.  this gives you more torque through out the rev range.  meaning that a turbo on the same engine will be faster at the same peak power level, or same speed at a lower peak power level.  from there you can decide if you want faster or if you want more reliable. 
• with the SC, you'll be making peak boost, peak rpm (lets say last 500 rpm), and peak power at the same time.  creating a specific max stress point on the engine, and you'll want to go to that point on the track cause that's where you'll be fastest.
• turbo's are generally more efficient.  meaning to make 250whp, you need less crank hp with a turbo than with an SC.  That means your engine is generating more heat, using more fuel, and wearing faster.  The turbo itself does get hotter than an SC, but these days there are some very effective heat shielding and insulation products available for very reasonable costs, check out https://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/exhaust-heat-shield-insulation if you wanna nerd out (and I'm not talking header wrap).
• power is adjustable with the turbo.  meaning at the track you can turn down the power to manage heat and less wear.  and on the street you can turn it up for burnouts and smoking mustangs and corvettes.  yes I'm weird like that (according to the internet), I prefer lower power on track and all the power I can get on the street.  
• the rotrex requires a soft rev limiter.  your standard "bang bang bang" rev limiter puts massive wear on the rotrex unit.  this isn't necessarily a negative as you said you'd do it right and get a stand alone, any standalone is capable of a soft rev limiter.  and based on the stories I've heard, rotrex's warranty 9/10 claims seams to be "this is your fault but we'll be nice and sell you a new unit at a discounted price). 
• the actual unit, the turbocharger vs the supercharger, reliability and ability to take abuse, by a huge margin, goes to the turbo charger (not counting ebay turbos, but even some of those are pretty decent)

NC 2.5 specific:

• the 2.5 has a very long stroke and fast piston speed.  the engine was designed as the cheap option in boring daily duty in mid size sedans and SUV's, meaning low to mid torque.  Even though the redline in most of these cars is 6000-7000, looking at the power band its obvious the engine wasn't really designed to see much time above 5000 rpm.  basically constantly revving this engine high will significantly shorten its life.  so all those high rpm disadvantages of any centrifugal type SC as far as stress and wear is concerned is twofold on the 2.5.
• I've always wanted about 230whp for track use in my NC.  A turbo car can easily do that with a 6-6500 rpm redline, and I can get a shorter final drive ratio to make up for max speed in each gear with the lower redline.  Limiting factor rpm wise for me would be gearing.  I like second gear to top out at 60-65 mph, so I'd set the actual redline based on that and whatever taller final drive I'd end up getting (options for the NC are kinda limited).  So lower redline means my 2.5 would last longer.  and with the better mid range torque of the turbo over the SC means I don't have to be constantly revving it to kiss the rev limiter to get the max out of the car

 

/brain dump

[AlwaysFSX]

50 minutes ago, warmmilk said:

 https://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/exhaust-heat-shield-insulation 

Ooooooooh

[warmmilk]

@chaozbandit

 

James Deane crashed on the final run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  honestly half expecting the judges to still give him the win...

[GlassBomb]

 

[chaozbandit]

24 minutes ago, warmmilk said:

@chaozbandit

 

James Deane crashed on the final run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  honestly half expecting the judges to still give him the win...

 

lol I was watching PWC over Formula D. Alvaro Parente had another big off, this time not his fault at all. The second of the team's three chassis written off, this time massive rear end damage. I dont think the previous chassis has even started repairs yet.

 

@MEC-777 @bcredeur97

 

 

[warmmilk]

10 minutes ago, chaozbandit said:

 

lol I was watching PWC over Formula D. Alvaro Parente had another big off, this time not his fault at all. The second of the team's three chassis written off, this time massive rear end damage. I dont think the previous chassis has even started repairs yet.

 

@MEC-777 @bcredeur97

 

 

WTF was that?!?!?!?!!?!! he just flat out punted him off the track!  that wasn't "racing" he just flat out turned into him!  does he get any sort of punishment?  honestly he should get a DNF for the race since he cause another car to DNF.

[PandaCopyRight]

47 minutes ago, warmmilk said:

@chaozbandit

 

James Deane crashed on the final run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  honestly half expecting the judges to still give him the win...

quite sad that Bluss didnt beat Tuerck  

[warmmilk]

2 minutes ago, PandaCopyRight said:

quite sad that Bluss didnt beat Tuerck  

yeah I was rooting for Bluss too, but at least Tuerck earned that win.  When it comes to Deane, the judges always give him a win... if it should be a OMT, Deane gets the win... if Deane loses by a little, they still give him the win... and he never loses by anything more than that.  So the only way he ever takes a loss is if he crashes or if he has damage that isn't repaired in time from previous contact.  I mean don't get me wrong, he's a great driver, and from seeing him in interviews and stuff he seams pretty cool as a person.  But the way the judges gargle his balls every chance they get really pisses me off!  

[chaozbandit]

14 minutes ago, warmmilk said:

WTF was that?!?!?!?!!?!! he just flat out punted him off the track!  that wasn't "racing" he just flat out turned into him!  does he get any sort of punishment?  honestly he should get a DNF for the race since he cause another car to DNF.

No punishment that I've heard so far, but that was the session's only full course yellow. An odd mistake from Skeen who is a veteran sportscar racer. 

[warmmilk]

1 minute ago, chaozbandit said:

No punishment that I've heard so far, but that was the session's only full course yellow. An odd mistake from Skeen who is a veteran sportscar racer. 

thats BS.  just cause it was a mistake doesn't mean it shouldn't be punished.  He cost another driver the race and the team a shit ton of money.

[PandaCopyRight]

1 minute ago, warmmilk said:

yeah I was rooting for Bluss too, but at least Tuerck earned that win.  When it comes to Deane, the judges always give him a win... if it should be a OMT, Deane gets the win... if Deane loses by a little, they still give him the win... and he never loses by anything more than that.  So the only way he ever takes a loss is if he crashes or if he has damage that isn't repaired in time from previous contact.  I mean don't get me wrong, he's a great driver, and from seeing him in interviews and stuff he seams pretty cool as a person.  But the way the judges gargle his balls every chance they get really pisses me off!  

Well Bluss is from Latvia and im Latvian  

looked like Bluss' car had some understeer issues on his follow run  

but yeah Deane seems the kind of guy to win cause everyone loves him a bit more than the others  

[chaozbandit]

2 minutes ago, warmmilk said:

thats BS.  just cause it was a mistake doesn't mean it shouldn't be punished.  He cost another driver the race and the team a shit ton of money.

 

It sucks for K-PAX for sure. To add insult to injury, the yellow car had already had an off earlier in the weekend that destroyed the front bodywork. A tough weekend for Bentley, even with the BOP in their favour.

[warmmilk]

Just now, PandaCopyRight said:

Well Bluss is from Latvia and im Latvian  

looked like Bluss' car had some understeer issues on his follow run  

but yeah Deane seems the kind of guy to win cause everyone loves him a bit more than the others  

I'm from near Latvia, I'm originally from Belarus... so there's that and his car is awesome!  but yeah, he made a couple mistakes

 

Well thats the thing, its just the judges.  Everyone is getting tired of this BS, last FD round at Long Beach, the judge got boo'd by the whole crowd when he came on the loud speaker to justify giving Deane the win.

[warmmilk]

1 minute ago, chaozbandit said:

 

It sucks for K-PAX for sure. To add insult to injury, the yellow car had already had an off earlier in the weekend that destroyed the front bodywork. A tough weekend for Bentley, even with the BOP in their favour.

whats BOP?

[PandaCopyRight]

7 minutes ago, warmmilk said:

I'm from near Latvia, I'm originally from Belarus... so there's that and his car is awesome!  but yeah, he made a couple mistakes

 

Well thats the thing, its just the judges.  Everyone is getting tired of this BS, last FD round at Long Beach, the judge got boo'd by the whole crowd when he came on the loud speaker to justify giving Deane the win.

nice. i think we had talked about it on this thread like a few thousand pages back  

 

HGK makes MAAAAAAD drift cars ... also a Latvian comapny since one of the owners is Bluss  

 

oh shit, i missed the Long beach round so i didnt know that  

[chaozbandit]

1 hour ago, warmmilk said:

whats BOP?

Balance of performance. The SRO track classification takes altitude into account for boost levels, and PWC administers ballast between cars from race to race.

[Rappalores]

Kris Meeke had a puncture in todays stage sadly and had to drive 7km before being able to change it due to narrow roads.

[bcredeur97]

6 hours ago, warmmilk said:

nothing wrong with that, just that my preference is turbo.  although my reasoning has some specific NC 2.5 points.

 

small responsive turbo (not taking huge power drag car turbos) vs centrifugal SC (boost climbs with rpm such as the rotrex unit):

• main advantage here is that the turbo will make max boost at 3-4k rpm and will generally hold it to redline.  sometimes it falls off a bit if the exhaust housing can't flow enough at high rpm.  this gives you more torque through out the rev range.  meaning that a turbo on the same engine will be faster at the same peak power level, or same speed at a lower peak power level.  from there you can decide if you want faster or if you want more reliable. 
• with the SC, you'll be making peak boost, peak rpm (lets say last 500 rpm), and peak power at the same time.  creating a specific max stress point on the engine, and you'll want to go to that point on the track cause that's where you'll be fastest.
• turbo's are generally more efficient.  meaning to make 250whp, you need less crank hp with a turbo than with an SC.  That means your engine is generating more heat, using more fuel, and wearing faster.  The turbo itself does get hotter than an SC, but these days there are some very effective heat shielding and insulation products available for very reasonable costs, check out https://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/exhaust-heat-shield-insulation if you wanna nerd out (and I'm not talking header wrap).
• power is adjustable with the turbo.  meaning at the track you can turn down the power to manage heat and less wear.  and on the street you can turn it up for burnouts and smoking mustangs and corvettes.  yes I'm weird like that (according to the internet), I prefer lower power on track and all the power I can get on the street.  
• the rotrex requires a soft rev limiter.  your standard "bang bang bang" rev limiter puts massive wear on the rotrex unit.  this isn't necessarily a negative as you said you'd do it right and get a stand alone, any standalone is capable of a soft rev limiter.  and based on the stories I've heard, rotrex's warranty 9/10 claims seams to be "this is your fault but we'll be nice and sell you a new unit at a discounted price). 
• the actual unit, the turbocharger vs the supercharger, reliability and ability to take abuse, by a huge margin, goes to the turbo charger (not counting ebay turbos, but even some of those are pretty decent)

NC 2.5 specific:

• the 2.5 has a very long stroke and fast piston speed.  the engine was designed as the cheap option in boring daily duty in mid size sedans and SUV's, meaning low to mid torque.  Even though the redline in most of these cars is 6000-7000, looking at the power band its obvious the engine wasn't really designed to see much time above 5000 rpm.  basically constantly revving this engine high will significantly shorten its life.  so all those high rpm disadvantages of any centrifugal type SC as far as stress and wear is concerned is twofold on the 2.5.
• I've always wanted about 230whp for track use in my NC.  A turbo car can easily do that with a 6-6500 rpm redline, and I can get a shorter final drive ratio to make up for max speed in each gear with the lower redline.  Limiting factor rpm wise for me would be gearing.  I like second gear to top out at 60-65 mph, so I'd set the actual redline based on that and whatever taller final drive I'd end up getting (options for the NC are kinda limited).  So lower redline means my 2.5 would last longer.  and with the better mid range torque of the turbo over the SC means I don't have to be constantly revving it to kiss the rev limiter to get the max out of the car

 

/brain dump

what I don't like about turbos is the sudden rush of power when they spool.... I prefer a much more linear powerband. Now the borg warners seem to be able to spool very quickly in between shifts and such so may not be as much of a problem with those... BUT something about the sudden torque surge bothers me. I feel like it's the reason a lot of turbo cars break, when they do break. Never really liked it... but I will say your statement on the superchargers and wear in general does make a lot of sense... just not sure if it matters if you're fairly conservative with them

Also miata being a small, light car, a torque surge isn't exactly ideal for maintain good, stable acceleration, especially out of corners, in my mind I want it to be planted solid and just accelerate like mad out of a corner, not me having to adjust my driving a ton because it just wants to spin wheels on corner exits....

 

I agree with you on the street HP thing. Totally rather more on the street than on the track... track is like 70% skill, 30% car anyway... and I'd like a car that is somewhat easy to drive so I don't always feel like im gonna put it into a wall...

 

 

By far the thing that bothers me the most with all this -- is I really like either option. But I don't want it to be something I regret later on and have to spend more money by picking the second option later on.... I don't want to be the fastest guy out there, so I really guess reliability is the ultimate goal for me. Hence why I would probably build the motor beforehand even if im not pushing big numbers from the car. -- just no point.

[warmmilk]

2 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

what I don't like about turbos is the sudden rush of power when they spool.... I prefer a much more linear powerband. Now the borg warners seem to be able to spool very quickly in between shifts and such so may not be as much of a problem with those... BUT something about the sudden torque surge bothers me. I feel like it's the reason a lot of turbo cars break, when they do break. Never really liked it... but I will say your statement on the superchargers and wear in general does make a lot of sense... just not sure if it matters if you're fairly conservative with them

Also miata being a small, light car, a torque surge isn't exactly ideal for maintain good, stable acceleration, especially out of corners, in my mind I want it to be planted solid and just accelerate like mad out of a corner, not me having to adjust my driving a ton because it just wants to spin wheels on corner exits....

 

I agree with you on the street HP thing. Totally rather more on the street than on the track... track is like 70% skill, 30% car anyway... and I'd like a car that is somewhat easy to drive so I don't always feel like im gonna put it into a wall...

 

 

By far the thing that bothers me the most with all this -- is I really like either option. But I don't want it to be something I regret later on and have to spend more money by picking the second option later on.... I don't want to be the fastest guy out there, so I really guess reliability is the ultimate goal for me. Hence why I would probably build the motor beforehand even if im not pushing big numbers from the car. -- just no point.

With proper tuning that can be fixed. But you gotta spend the time on that. I'm assuming you're taking most of you turbo experience from that ecoboost mustang that had a tune on it, right?   Those engines (with oft tunes) make a mountain of torque at something like 3-4k rpm and then fall off hard... cause, well, numbers sell oft tunes. They just go for the max gain they can get out of the factory turbo...

 

You need to tune the torque curve to resemble a bigger NA engine somewhat, that means dialing back the low to mid torque for a flatter torque curve (but still more than a rotrex ) rather than a huge spike. That helps the engine feel like just a bigger engine rather than a small turbo engine. For high power builds, lower boost at part throttle helps a lot too, but I don't think that'd be needed for a sub 250ish whp build on a 1.8L Miata. 

 

So I know it really sounds like I'm trying to sell you a turbo... I swear I'm not, haha... I wouldn't have any hesitation about running the TDR rotrex kit, and you're right, as close as you can get a turbo for a linear throttle response and good throttle modulation, the SC will still be better.  To be perfectly honest, if I had an NB, I'd do the ecotec swap, make 200whp-ish and be done with it. That'll be more reliable and run cooler and no tuning headaches and etc...

[chaozbandit]

 

[chaozbandit]

32ede793c43aa48b4144d4cfd843ef03dbb776ff

8046ce32f27f541ca295fa1ece756ead3800a4c5

 

Force India and Baku are best friends

 

Alonso on L4: "Unbelievable. You take care in corner 1 and corner 2, and they still crash into you. ****ing stupid" 

 

Laps 15-25: CHILL OUT MAX

 

Ferrari strategy 101 on L31: Raikkonen complains the softs succ, let's put Vettel on the softs

[chaozbandit]

You can't put the blame on Renault for this one boys

Spoiler

 

HOW DO YOU CRASH UNDER A SAFETY CAR

Spoiler

****ing cat-haas-trophe

 

WHAT EVEN IS HAPPENING ANYMORE

Spoiler

So bloody gutted for Bottas, he legit deserved this win. Toto is not impressed.

 

[chaozbandit]

 

@MEC-777