An EU First: Person Sentenced for Sharing Information on Pirating Service

[Volbet]

A bit of an introduction to the case

 

Roughly 2 years ago Danish police charged two men for assisting piracy by sharing information on how to install and operate the torrent-based streaming service Popcorn Time via a dedicated website (which has been offline since 2015).

 

https://www.theverge.com/2015/8/20/9181243/popcorn-time-how-to-sites-arrested

https://gizmodo.com/you-can-get-arrested-in-denmark-just-for-spreading-info-1725141324

 

Today there was a ruling in the case in the municipal court in Odense. 

The ruling: One of the men behind the website was sentenced to 6 months probation (with 120 hours of community service) and has to pay a fine of 506,003 DKR (about 83,400 USD).

 

Quote

Never before has a person been sentenced for assisting in sharing a streaming service. 

The ruling is therefor an important step in fighting illegal streaming on the internet and it [the case] will serve as an example throughout Europe.

- Dorte Køhler Frandsen, state lawyer with the State Prosecutor for Serious Economic and International Crime. (My translation)

 

Simply put, there's now a precedent within the EU that allows for people to get jail sentences for simply sharing information about illegal streaming sites (and possibly other illegal sources of content). 

Note, this is not actually downloading anything illegal, mearly talking about and demonstrating an illegal service.

 

The fine was given due to the ad revenue it was estimated that the website had brought in. 

 

I guess the only major modifier in regards to just sharing information about the illegal pirate services, is that the website also instructed the users on how to avoid getting caught

Unfortunalty, I could not find any information as to whether or not this had any impact on the court's decision. 

 

Sources (in Danish, unfortunatly)

http://anklagemyndigheden.dk/da/forste-gang-i-europa-39-arig-domt-udbrede-ulovlig-filmtjeneste

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/foerste-sag-i-europa-dansk-mand-doemt-spredning-af-ulovlig-filmtjeneste

 

Personal thoughts:

While the content of the website was quite clearly against the Danish penal code, I do think this case could set a dangerous precedent. 

This case might have been pretty clear cut, but I fear that it could become applicable to cases that fall into a legal grey area.

What about torrenting programs like qBittorrent or Vuze? Are those illegal pirating services?

While torrents can absolutly be used (and are used) for completely legal purposes, there's also a not insignificant amount of illegal traffic going about through torrenting.

Does that mean that installing BitTorrent on your friend's PC is illegal? Is Ninite responsible for assisting in piracy?

 

Edit:

The intitial arrest was also discussed on the forum here:

 

[Thermosman]

since torrenting is decentralized, theres not much they can do about it

[mr moose]

I guess regardless of whether you agree with piracy or not, the fact is it is illegal and they are having trouble shutting down the other end (pirate bay et al). That logically only leaves the user end to try and shut down.   

[SpaceGhostC2C]

"Dear Sir, I believe I have some money at stake here, so fuck your rights. Have a nice day!"

[Master Disaster]

I would be fighting this so hard if it was me, fact is it's not illegal to tell someone how to commit a crime. As long as you don't have anything to do with committing the crime you've done nothing wrong.

[KenjiUmino]

41 minutes ago, Thermosman said:

since torrenting is decentralized, theres not much they can do about it

they CAN and ARE doing something about it ever since:

 

13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

they are having trouble shutting down the other end (pirate bay et al). That logically only leaves the user end to try and shut down.   

 

they never learn.

[porina]

Without looking into the exact details of the case, how far can you go?

 

It sounds like:

1, here's the tool that lets you get pirated stuff (link) and how to use it - if this is what they're doing, they're actively encouraging with knowledge on how to do it

 

But there where is the line drawn?

2, there's a tool called (name) (no link) which may be used with to get pirated stuff, but we're not saying how - is this ok?

3, there's a generic class of tools (no link) which may be used for stuff - generic enough to be safe?

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, KenjiUmino said:

they CAN and ARE doing something about it ever since:

 

 

they never learn.

By definition trying a new tactic when the old one didn't work is learning.

 

Just now, porina said:

Without looking into the exact details of the case, how far can you go?

 

It sounds like:

1, here's the tool that lets you get pirated stuff (link) and how to use it - if this is what they're doing, they're actively encouraging with knowledge on how to do it

 

But there where is the line drawn?

2, there's a tool called (name) (no link) which may be used with to get pirated stuff, but we're not saying how - is this ok?

3, there's a generic class of tools (no link) which may be used for stuff - generic enough to be safe?

Like most legal cases it will likely be left intentionally open to interpretation,  so the judge in each case can determine how intentional the act was. 

 

 

 

 

[Centurius]

By the OP it seems to be a regional court? If so it only really sets a Danish precedent. EU precedents can only be set by the European Court of Justice.

[Misanthrope]

While you EU boys are busy with this obviously dangerous and extremely important criminals, how about taking care of these minor offenses like laundering money for Mexican drug cartels?

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/rabobank-na-pleads-guilty-agrees-pay-over-360-million

 

Just saying.

[Volbet]

2 hours ago, Centurius said:

By the OP it seems to be a regional court? If so it only really sets a Danish precedent. EU precedents can only be set by the European Court of Justice.

Not necessarily.

If a regional court case is about how a piece of EU legislation is to interpreted, then a regional ruling can create a precedent within the EU itself.

[dizmo]

I don't think there's really a worry about other torrenting programs. Popcorn Time specifically targeted shows and movies. Blatantly illegal. Whereas the others are just for files, and while yes they can contain movies, they don't necessarily. They have other uses. 

 

And honestly, if "torrents" became illegal..just call the grouping of files something else. "oh, I'm downloading jangles." 

 

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

I would be fighting this so hard if it was me, fact is it's not illegal to tell someone how to commit a crime. As long as you don't have anything to do with committing the crime you've done nothing wrong.

Depends where you live. You can't say that like it's a blanket statement for the entire world.

3 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

While you EU boys are busy with this obviously dangerous and extremely important criminals, how about taking care of these minor offenses like laundering money for Mexican drug cartels?

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/rabobank-na-pleads-guilty-agrees-pay-over-360-million

 

Just saying.

I'm pretty sure every large bank does, whether they know it or not. See: HSBC. 

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

While you EU boys are busy with this obviously dangerous and extremely important criminals, how about taking care of these minor offenses like laundering money for Mexican drug cartels?

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/rabobank-na-pleads-guilty-agrees-pay-over-360-million

 

Just saying.

So are you "just saying" we should just ignore all minor crimes like petty theft for example until the bigger crimes are sorted?

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

So are you "just saying" we should just ignore all minor crimes like petty theft for example until the bigger crimes are sorted?

The problem here is that they wasting more resources on these minor civil cases than what they using on actually important things...

 

/EDIT

Plus its interesting how they didnt got fined into oblivion for their mafia style threatening letters...

Edited February 8, 2018 by jagdtigger

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

The problem here is that they wasting more resources on these minor civil cases than what they using on actually important things...

So are you saying it too?  Are you suggesting that minor cases should just be let go while we have more serious cases that require resources?  

 

Because in all honesty,  that argument is one of deflection, it is a red herring that does not address the original issue.  Yes those other crimes might be more serious and require more resources to resolve, but that neither addresses this cases right to judicial resolution nor does it undermine the legitimacy of it's existence. 

[LAwLz]

5 hours ago, Volbet said:

Not necessarily.

If a regional court case is about how a piece of EU legislation is to interpreted, then a regional ruling can create a precedent within the EU itself.

Regional courts are below the EU courts though. So while it might set precedent, it might also just be overruled in the EU court.

 

 

I have not looked into this case a whole lot but I agree that sharing information about illegal activities should be illegal in some circumstances.

If what you are writing encourages people to commit crimes then it should be against the law, but it is the act of encouragement itself that should be illegal, not the spreading of information.

 

I mean, if we make the spreading of information itself illegal then we will quickly run into major issues when it comes to things such as teaching computer security. You have to teach people how to commit certain attacks in order to also teach how to protect against them.

Martial arts and self defense classes would also all of a sudden run the risk of being fined for "teaching people how to murder others" even though that is not their intentions.

 

So if you ask me:

Teaching people how crimes can be done = fine.

Encouraging people to commit crimes = should be illegal.

 

It quickly becomes a gray area though.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

but it is the act of encouragement itself that should be illegal, not the spreading of information.

 

It quickly becomes a gray area though.

I guess the issue is at what stage does spreading the information enable the crime? does this technically make you an accessory if you know the information you are dispensing will be used for criminal activity?   Authorities are already censoring and trying to make it illegal to teach people how to make bombs. 

 

If the judge deems adequate evidence exists that shows the person was in fact enabling crime though said information then they might be in trouble, however plenty of videos exist where people basically demonstrate how to make dynamite and there is no evidential link between that and crime.

 

I dare say if the original content was carefully worded as an instructional to businesses on how to use torrent networks/software to distribute software and in house media, then there probably would have been no case to answer to.

 

[LAwLz]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I dare say if the original content was carefully worded as an instructional to businesses on how to use torrent networks/software to distribute software and in house media, then there probably would have been no case to answer to.

Absolutely. It entirely depends on how the content was worded in my eyes. If the website was "How to pirate movies with popcorn time" then I think it's fair to sentence them. I also think it's fair to sentence someone for posting "want to blow up an airplane? Here's how to make bombs that goes through airport security". 

[Rupe]

15 hours ago, Volbet said:

is that the website also instructed the users on how to avoid getting caught

The irony of getting caught for explaining to people how not to get caught...

[jagdtigger]

52 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So are you saying it too?  Are you suggesting that minor cases should just be let go while we have more serious cases that require resources?  

 

Because in all honesty,  that argument is one of deflection, it is a red herring that does not address the original issue.  Yes those other crimes might be more serious and require more resources to resolve, but that neither addresses this cases right to judicial resolution nor does it undermine the legitimacy of it's existence. 

This isnt the solution either so your point is kinda moot... No matter how many lives they carelessly ruin they cant stop this without solving the root of the problem, which aint gonna happen because they are greedy beyond hope...

[Vode]

5 hours ago, dizmo said:

And honestly, if "torrents" became illegal..just call the grouping of files something else. "oh, I'm downloading jangles." 

Does that mean I can legally go around killing people if I call murder „holbicunglatz“ instead?

[Mooshi]

Glad I don't live in the EU

[Sniperfox47]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

So are you saying it too?  Are you suggesting that minor cases should just be let go while we have more serious cases that require resources?  

 

Because in all honesty,  that argument is one of deflection, it is a red herring that does not address the original issue.  Yes those other crimes might be more serious and require more resources to resolve, but that neither addresses this cases right to judicial resolution nor does it undermine the legitimacy of it's existence. 

Yes, they should. Resources are limited, and the ability of the courts are not absolute. Minor crimes should not be the responsibility of the courts to uphold, but a social responsibility. It's absolutely ludicrous how much inane junk is clogging down the legal system pretty much everywhere.

 

"King, this man age my goat!"

"But Your Majesty it was on public property, by itself, with no indication it belonged to anyone! How was I to know it was his goat?"

"OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"

 

40 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Absolutely. It entirely depends on how the content was worded in my eyes. If the website was "How to pirate movies with popcorn time" then I think it's fair to sentence them. I also think it's fair to sentence someone for posting "want to blow up an airplane? Here's how to make bombs that goes through airport security". 

Intention can be hard to ascertain though, because likewise that same article could be presented to the copyright stakes holders to inform them of how piracy of their movies happens.

 

At the end of the day, making laws on the basis of intent is incredibly difficult because intent is rarely a rigid and easy to define thing. It's often easy for intent to be hidden and manipulated in ways that obscure its truth.

[LAwLz]

29 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Intention can be hard to ascertain though, because likewise that same article could be presented to the copyright stakes holders to inform them of how piracy of their movies happens.

 

At the end of the day, making laws on the basis of intent is incredibly difficult because intent is rarely a rigid and easy to define thing. It's often easy for intent to be hidden and manipulated in ways that obscure its truth.

I agree, which is why I said:

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

It quickly becomes a gray area though.

and

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

It entirely depends on how the content was worded in my eyes.

 

It can be very hard to judge but at the end of the day, I don't think encouraging people to commit should be legal. I am fairly sure it is illegal already.

[Sniperfox47]

3 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I agree, which is why I said:

and

 

It can be very hard to judge but at the end of the day, I don't think encouraging people to commit should be legal. I am fairly sure it is illegal already.

That was my comment though. What is encouraging?

 

Quote

Encourage: to help or stimulate (an activity, state, or view) to develop.

There has been a long legal history of stakes holders claiming that even going so far as providing factual information in a matter of fact format encourages an activity. And I'm not even just talking copyright stakes holders.

 

Like you said, it gets into a grey area very quickly. I wasn't meaning to correct you on that, just build upon it.

 

Edit: reading through it again, I realized my previous post may be a bit ambiguous. I meant specifically that the exact article on "how to pirate movies" that goes into exacting processes of how to do it as a consumer, could be a teaching tool for businesses with no change to the wording. Even looking at the wording it can be hard to ascertain was what I was trying to say.