Are consoles actually as bad as most PC enthusiasts say?

[App4that]

1 minute ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Playing games at 30 fps is a huge downgrade compared to on my GTX 970 based system that plays everything at 60 fps high/ultra, but the PS4 still has a lot of exclusives I can't get on PC. I don't think I could go to console as a main gaming platform, especially now with the economy so shitty that you're not getting the really ambitious consoles like you did in the 360/PS3 generation. But buying one late in the generation to pick up both the hardware and the exclusives for bargain basement prices is a pretty good deal. The most expensive PS4 game I bought was Bloodborne at $18 (though I'll certainly get Red Dead Redemption 2 at launch for full price in the fall since there is no PC version announced).

But that's how they survive. Not by innovation or value but by holding games hostage. 

[SteveGrabowski0]

3 minutes ago, App4that said:

I could do this all day LOL

 

https://dolphin-emu.org/

Dolphin can't play Wii U games. It's amazing for Wii though. I have a real Wii but greatly prefer Dolphin since I can play games at 1080p with it. The Wii U emulator (Cemu) is still pretty young and has massive stuttering the first time you play through any level in any game.

[App4that]

4 minutes ago, Nuluvius said:

My kids are very young and indeed once they learn how to read, write and coordinate themselves more proficiently then they will be ready for moving onto PCs.

What you are describing is not synonymous with console games at all... It is exactly the same with PC games if not much worse these days; all of the DLC, the MMO corruption of pay 2 play, pay 2 win, one time onlys, lockboxes, dailies and worst of all quests. We do not in fact even own a single exclusive and the storage issues aren't that bad considering the user or the use cases in this particular context.

 

In conclusion I'd have to say that your points are completely moot.

And look at where those practices spawned from, consoles. Of course developers will implement what makes money, you can't blame them. But it happenes way less frequently because a majority of PC players don't put up with those practices. 

 

So it is NOT exactly the same. Take a moment to look again. 

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Dolphin can't play Wii U games. It's amazing for Wii though. I have a real Wii but greatly prefer Dolphin since I can play games at 1080p with it. The Wii U emulator (Cemu) is still pretty young and has massive stuttering the first time you play through any level in any game.

It can, with some help. But there are other emulators too. I just posted the one I can't get in trouble for posting ;p 

[SteveGrabowski0]

10 minutes ago, Scruffy90 said:

In terms of value, i've spent less on my rig and games from last gen and this gen, than all of my friends spent on their current gen consoles + games + subscriptions. The problem I see if that when making these comparisons money wise, everyone looks at the short term. Long term, $60 games + subscriptions add up rather quickly.

It doesn't matter to me since I don't play multiplayer games. It is no doubt pretty shitty for people who do like them though. Console games aren't all $60. I bought a bunch of exclusives last month and the most I paid was $18 for Bloodborne. I picked up The Last of Us and Ratchet & Clank, two of the best games on the system, for $10 each. Also, this generation the consoles don't have the robust pirate culture PC has. Almost every heavily discounted game on the Steam sales is cracked. The only recent exception I can think of is Just Cause 3.

[SteveGrabowski0]

4 minutes ago, App4that said:

It can, with some help. But there are other emulators too. I just posted the one I can't get in trouble for posting ;p 

I don't see any Wii U games on the Dolphin compatibility list.

[Nuluvius]

6 minutes ago, App4that said:

And loot at where those practices spawned from, consoles. Of course developers will implement what makes money, you can't blame them. But it happenes way less frequently because a majority of PC players don't put up with those practices. 

 

So it is NOT exactly the same. Take a moment to look again. 

You are fundamentally incorrect there. Those practices originated, largely, from MMOs, specifically WoW and it's clones that came to fill and overrun the market. This directly bled through into the business model of platforms such as Steam afflicting single player games. Consoles simply got hit by a lucrative business model somewhere along the way.

[App4that]

3 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

It doesn't matter to me since I don't play multiplayer games. It is no doubt pretty shitty for people who do like them though. Console games aren't all $60. I bought a bunch of exclusives last month and the most I paid was $18 for Bloodborne. I picked up The Last of Us and Ratchet & Clank, two of the best games on the system, for $10 each.

But you avoided graphics cards coming with games, like my 980ti came with ROTTR. Dat marketing got to you.

 

1 minute ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

I don't see any Wii U games on the Dolphin compatibility list.

You're looking at the wrong list. 

[flibberdipper]

They're not bad, really. Hell, I still use my 360 on a daily basis, and my OG Xbox about once a week (only have 2 or 3 games for it).

[App4that]

1 minute ago, Nuluvius said:

You are fundamentally incorrect there. Those practices originated from MMOs, specifically WoW and it's clones that came to fill and overrun the market. This directly bled through into the business model of platforms such as Steam afflicting single player games. Consoles simply got hit by a lucrative business model somewhere along the way.

No... You can't equate a free to play model to point of purchase. I've worked for a few Free to Play, it can be done right and it can be done. Not right. 

 

All the games that take advantage of player are on console, some get ported to PC. Not PC's failt. 

[SteveGrabowski0]

1 minute ago, App4that said:

But you avoided graphics cards coming with games, like my 980ti came with ROTTR. Dat marketing got to you.

 

You're looking at the wrong list. 

Pretty sure I'm not getting ROTR free with a gpu that can fit in a $230 budget for the entire system. And give the list if there is a decent Wii U emulator other than Cemu. I have never seen LTT censor people for talking about emulation. I'm not asking you for roms or a BIOS file.

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Pretty sure I'm not getting ROTR free with a gpu that can fit in a $230 budget for the entire system. And give the list if there is a decent Wii U emulator other than Cemu. I have never seen LTT censor people for talking about emulation. I'm not asking you for roms or a BIOS file.

You're looking at the pricing for the PS4, now. At the 400 to 500 they asked for it new you can get a free game with a low end card. The 960 had free games all the time. 

 

And no PlaystationPlus to buy, or proprietary online stores. Or ransom games...

 

http://cemu.info/

[Lord Nicoll]

2 hours ago, luegnicl said:

Most PC enthusiast I know say: Consoles are crap, consoles are cheap etc. How much of what PC enthusiasts say about consoles is actually true?

not really, the two groups just have different priorities. 

[Nuluvius]

8 minutes ago, App4that said:

No... You can't equate a free to play model to point of purchase. I've worked for a few Free to Play, it can be done right and it can be done. Not right. 

It is not the free to play business model, it is the micro transaction business model and that did originate from the MMO on the PC. I have essentially watched this happen over the decades and indeed have been involved in it.

8 minutes ago, App4that said:

All the games that take advantage of player are on console, some get ported to PC. Not PC's failt. 

Now you seem to be trying to argue about which came first; the chicken or the egg...

[Sauron]

12 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

What PC are you going to build for $230 that can outdo a PS4? Also don't forget to throw in a great AAA game selling for full price (since mine came with Uncharted 4).

A ps4 is not 230$, at least not where I live - and even amazon.com has it at 270$. Any bundle bonus is irrelevant when the first year of internet fee kicks in, not to mention I haven't paid full price for a AAA pc game in years (with the exception of doom) and in general the price of games is lower even without discounts and sales.

 

Here's a significantly better computer for the price of a ps4, a year of subscription and the price premium (10 bucks each) of 3 AAA games:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: AMD Athlon X4 845 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor  ($64.99 @ NCIX US) 
Motherboard: MSI A68HM-E33 V2 Micro ATX FM2+ Motherboard  ($39.99 @ Newegg) 
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 8GB (1 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  ($39.92 @ Amazon) 
Storage: Seagate Barracuda ES 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($44.76 @ Amazon) 
Video Card: Zotac GeForce GTX 1050 2GB Mini Video Card  ($108.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Case: Xion XON-310_BK MicroATX Mid Tower Case  ($24.98 @ Newegg) 
Power Supply: SeaSonic 350W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply  ($31.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Total: $355.62
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-01-09 13:25 EST-0500

 

Now we don't even have to worry about windows pricing, the insider program allows you to legally use it for free.

 

Consider consoles like printers, the manufacturer doesn't make a large margin on the hardware so they can rape you with cartridge (/game/internet fee) costs.

 

If you buy a ps4 to play only the bundled game and have no interest in internet functionality, then yes, the ps4 is cheaper. If you want to use it anywhere near as much as I'd use the computer above (assuming limited funds, aka only one game machine), it's much more expensive. It was even worse a year ago when the upfront price was about the same as the build above. And let me emphasize that the pc is not only cheaper in the mid to long term, it is significantly better in terms of hardware and functionality.

[App4that]

1 minute ago, Nuluvius said:

It is not the free to play business model, it is the micro transaction business model and that did originate from the MMO on the PC. I have essentially watched this happen over the decades and indeed have been involved int it.

Now you seem to be trying to argue about which came first; the chicken or the egg...

You have to make money, as a business, right? Micro transactions can be done well, and not well. Like anything else. With age you will find that it is not the thing, but how it's used. 

[Scruffy90]

18 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

It doesn't matter to me since I don't play multiplayer games. It is no doubt pretty shitty for people who do like them though. Console games aren't all $60. I bought a bunch of exclusives last month and the most I paid was $18 for Bloodborne. I picked up The Last of Us and Ratchet & Clank, two of the best games on the system, for $10 each. Also, this generation the consoles don't have the robust pirate culture PC has. Almost every heavily discounted game on the Steam sales is cracked. The only recent exception I can think of is Just Cause 3.

I know they arent all $60, but the majority of folks I or from experience working at gamestop, never bother to shop around for a deal. If shopping around for a deal or buying the console solely for exclusives (like most people do with Nintendo consoles), than it becomes a better value, but keep in mind that its still all in the short term.

[Mira Yurizaki]

41 minutes ago, App4that said:

The dude bought used parts to build abase system, then upgraded that. If you're going that route then... http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/vgm/5951014038.html. Oh look, a used PS4 for $150 with 6 games.

 

Also people seem to forget that consoles have game sales too. Humble Bundle does consoles. PSN has seasonal and flash sales. I was at Best Buy the other day and guess what? They have a $20 console game rack. And it's not shovelware. Battlefront was on there. And as of today, it's $15 on sale. However here's the reason why I think using "sales" is a dumb argument: everything eventually lowers in price. Therefore, I can just wait until the price drops to a point where I'm willing to pay for it. And even then, I could just be made out of money and it doesn't matter if a game is $60 or $10.

 

As for paying online, sure, it sucks consoles have to pay for it. But let's look at the PlayStation side. You do not need PS+ if you're playing F2P or games that already require a subscription (e.g., FFXIV). PS+ also comes with free games every month and has discounts across the store. And here's the other part: online PC gaming is a minefield of cheaters. It's much easier to cheat on PC than it is on consoles.

 

I hate the PC vs console debate precisely because PC gamers tend to cherry pick their so-called advantages and seem to deny consoles also have those advantages too. Or conveniently forget the other advantages.

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

-snip-

Well then allow us to bring in the value per frame. At the dollar per frame a mid grade PC blows the console out of the water. 

 

All this completely sides steps that Sony holds games hostage, they don't allow people to play their games without THEIR hardware. Could you imagine Nvidia doing that? Would you be so keen to protect Nvidia if they had exclusives? 

 

Consoles are holding back the game industry, bad. And that won't change until people have the courage to look past the marketing and see it. 

[Nuluvius]

1 minute ago, App4that said:

You have to make money, as a business, right? Micro transactions can be done well, and not well. Like anything else.

We have completely digressed and moved off topic. I fail to see what relevance this bares as to whether one platform is superior to the other. This is an implementation detail specific to game development and it is quite a platform agnostic one at that. Quintessentially the main factor that determines a platforms 'superiority' is the context that it is used in or required for - thus returning to my original salient point; young children have a great time on them with almost zero configuration concerns and as a working parent that is great.

1 minute ago, App4that said:

With age you will find that it is not the thing, but how it's used. 

I fail to see what you are attempting to insinuate with that rather obnoxious little noise but as far as I can see I've been trying to make that exact point to you all along but instead in relation to the core subject of this thread.

 

If you want to discuss the validity of a particular business model then that should really go to another thread in my opinion. As a very brief outline of my viewpoint on the matter though, I would say that there is no right or wrong to be found it in. It simply is what has evolved based on how the target audience has reacted over time and I do not see it going away in the near future. It generates a great deal of maintainable revenue therefore it makes perfect sense to perpetuate.

 

I do however find it personally disappointing because I can recall with great fondness what MMOs were like in their infancy, which was around 25 years ago now but like everything in the digital realm change comes and that is not how they are any longer nor will ever likely be again.

[Sauron]

13 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

They have a $20 console game rack. And it's not shovelware. Battlefront was on there.

battlefront is 10$ for pc https://www.origin.com/ita/en-us/store/star-wars/star-wars-battlefront/standard-edition

[Natsoup]

2 hours ago, Bigbootyjudy said:

LOL, after testing my laptop and getting 20 fps on the lowest settings in minecraft with optifine, the framerates seem godly to me

That's because your old toshiba is worth about forty bucks.

[Mira Yurizaki]

32 minutes ago, App4that said:

Well then allow us to bring in the value per frame. At the dollar per frame a mid grade PC blows the console out of the water. 

And that's if you care about frames per second. Personally it's not a deal breaker for me. Sure, if the option presents itself I would take 60FPS over 30FPS, but I'm not going to play a game that's locked to 30FPS going "OHMYGOD WHAT THE HELL WERE THE DEVELOPERS THINKING1?!111"

Quote

All this completely sides steps that Sony holds games hostage, they don't allow people to play their games without THEIR hardware. Could you imagine Nvidia doing that? Would you be so keen to protect Nvidia if they had exclusives? 

Steam won't allow me to play games I bought from their store without Steam, for the most part (well okay, if it uses Steamworks). EA won't let me play games I bought from Origin without going through Origin. I can't play Overwatch or StarCraft 2 without running Battle.Net. I can't launch Ubisoft's games without going through UPlay. Exclusivity doesn't happen on hardware.

 

I didn't want UPlay on my system for a while (especially after Google declared it a rootkit), but I couldn't play some of the games I bought from Steam because they required UPlay. Welp, guess Ubisoft is holding my games hostage now.

 

And in a more philosophical debate, if every service had every product available with almost no other discerning features, is there even a point in making a choice? If Hulu, Netflix, and Amazon Prime all had the same content at the same price, what's the point of even launching different services?

Quote

Consoles are holding back the game industry, bad. And that won't change until people have the courage to look past the marketing and see it. 

Which is funny considering PC gamers are also saying how supposedly the 8-cores in the PS4 and XB1 finally pushed developers to code "proper multithreaded" games (even though they had to anyway for the Xbox 360 and PS3). However I would hardly declare console gaming is holding back gaming entirely. On the technical side modern games have many techniques that originated on a console, simply because those developers were not satisfied with the supposed limitations. Developing on a PC is boring. You rely on Moore's Law to pick up the slack. Developing on a console is more adventurous. When you are faced with limitations, you're forced to think outside the box to come up with a solution. And in the end, that makes it better for everyone else.

 

For instance, if it wasn't for the Xbox, deferred shading probably wouldn't have been around as mature as it was to make games look great in the latter half of 2000.

 

If all you care about in games are technical achievements in software, then I would argue you're not really a gamer. But then I would run into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. But really, gaming is more than how pretty something looks, how many frames per second the system can push, etc. etc. If that's all you care about, then okay. I'll just consider you a misguided gamer.

 

24 minutes ago, Sauron said:

battlefront is 10$ for pc https://www.origin.com/ita/en-us/store/star-wars/star-wars-battlefront/standard-edition

I checked the link. Standard edition is $30. Maybe it was on sale for $10.

[SteveGrabowski0]

56 minutes ago, App4that said:

You're looking at the pricing for the PS4, now. At the 400 to 500 they asked for it new you can get a free game with a low end card. The 960 had free games all the time. 

 

And no PlaystationPlus to buy, or proprietary online stores. Or ransom games...

 

http://cemu.info/

Cemu is the one I mentioned man. And it's not even close to playing games well yet. It's nowhere near as polished as even PCSX2, much less Dolphin or ePSXe. There is massive stutter any time you play a new level for the first time as the team hasn't figured out how to precache textures. Any time a new asset loads for the first time the game just pauses. It's worse than playing Crysis 3 maxed out on a G3258 man.

[App4that]

33 minutes ago, Nuluvius said:

-snip-

If you can't have a civil conversation, then refrain from quoting me. 

 

9 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

-snip-

Have you played Final Fantasy 15? The latency makes the game next to unplayable. So fps is important. 

 

Console hold back the industry because they only care about making games the other platform cannot use, rather than quality. 

 

3 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Cemu is the one I mentioned man. And it's not even close to playing games well yet. It's nowhere near as polished as even PCSX2, much less Dolphin or ePSXe. There is massive stutter any time you play a new level for the first time as the team hasn't figured out how to precache textures. Any time a new asset loads for the first time the game just pauses. It's worse than playing Crysis 3 maxed out on a G3258 man.

But you're not forced to buy hardware to play the games.